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  1. #1
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    Default Recap of the DESS failure issue on some 2014 and 2015 RTs

    I just spent 6+ hours compiling a spreadsheet from Deanna777's long-running thread https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...Key-code-again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. The results are as follows;

    Of the 978 posts to date, only 71 (7.3%)were actual unique reports of DESS error or failure.

    Of the 71 reports of DESS error or failure, only 7 (10%) reported their bike as disabled (stranded); 90% reportedly were able to get the bike restarted after awhile.

    Of the 10% reporting being stranded, ALL were in 2015 (all 2014 RTs) and it is possible they did not try changing keys, cycling on and off, getting other RF-enabled or BT-enabled devices away from the ignition switch. In other words, it is possible that nobody's DESS actually failed but rather just caused a warning and non-start under certain conditions.

    Of the 71 reports, 21 reported having the DESS module replaced. Of these 21, 3 reported having the DESS module replaced multiple times.

    Of the 71 reports, no consistent causation pattern emerged, although the 7/31/2019 BRP Bulletin provides the most logical explanation, supported by theories posited by PaladinLV and others, that the problem was being caused by some DESS modules putting out an excessive RF signal, causing the key chip to become temporarily oversaturated and unreadable. This would account for the efficacy of such D-I-Y solutions as changing keys, cycling the ignition on and off, wrapping the key in tin foil, or putting a non-chip key in the ignition with a chipped key near it.

    One person reported their 2017 F3 Ltd developed an intermittent DESS warning AFTER having their ECU flashed by Monster https://www.monsterfuelinjection.com/spyder . Another person (AY4B) reported their DESS issue was resolved after having a Monster ECU Flash. Yet another person (2dogs) believes that a Monster Stage 2 flash disables the DESS module, as the delayed start-up time is eliminated with the Stage 2 flash. That makes sense to me; the Stage 1 ECU Flash does not bypass the startup screen but the Stage 2 does.

    A number of people either had the DESS module disabled / bypassed by someone (not a dealer) with the appropriate version of BUDS, or they intended to have it done. Finding someone close by who could do it for them seemed to be an issue as there are only a handful of members with the proper BUDS software.

    Of the 71 reports, 51 were 2014 models, mostly RTs but also 1 STS. 15 were 2015 models, mostly RTs, but including 2 F3S models. One was a 2016 F3L and two were 2017 F3L. There was one 2019 RTL who reported a "wrong key" or "check key" warning but not a DESS error per se.

    Of the 71 reports, 24 were reported in 2015, 28 in 2016, 4 in 2017, 3 in 2018, 5 in 2019, 1 in 2020, 3 in 2021 and 3 so far in 2022.

    My personal conclusions from this analysis are;
    * The DESS error affected mostly 2014 and 2015 RTs, and only a small number of those model years.
    * The DESS error was not a fatal one that would leave a rider permanently stranded; it was an intermittent one
    * For those bikes affected by this issue, replacing the early DESS module with another DESS module of early vintage often was a wasted effort; BRP didn't really understand and resolve the problem in new DESS modules until 2019
    * The only guarantee of never having the DESS error occur is to disable the DESS altogether, however, the vast majority of bikes of 2014 and 2015 vintage will not experience the DESS problem
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    Last edited by UtahPete; 07-25-2022 at 04:36 PM.
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  2. #2
    Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Peter Aawen's Avatar
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    While I can basically concur that your personal conclusions might be valid enough for you to draw from the info available in that particular "DESS AGAIN" thread, there's a few issues I have that should also be considered - the first being that once again Pete, you've missed the point that NO-ONE can know beforehand or accurately predict if THIS Particular occurrence of a DESS failure will be the one that permanently, (or for all intents & purposes at this time &/or place, permanently or semi-permanently... ) stops your Spyder from being started!

    EVERY ONE of those 90% of occurrennces you record as being one the owner/operator managed to get going again MAY have been a permanent failure, or at least one where the owner/operator couldn't get going again under their own steam - you just don't know; they don't know; the dealer doesn't know; NOBODY KNOWS which occurrence may end up being the 'dead in the water' failure, and they DO happen!

    The second issue is that the particular thread you based your conclusions upon is just one thread on one Forum - I know of at least 2 other Forums with similar threads & similar complaints - maybe they aren't as big/popular as this Forum, but there are certainly a number of other Spyder owners out there who may or may not ever frequent this Forum who have had this particular DESS Issue & who have not posted in the subject thread.... I reckon there's even a few here who DO (or did ) frequent this Forum who haven't posted in your subject thread. . And then there's all the other social media sites with similar posts &/or threads being made, only they aren't so easily collated &/or traced; and we don't know how many of them have cross posted here, but I strongly suspect it's not too many!

    So I really think that:

    1. Your second conclusion - "The DESS error was not a fatal one that would leave a rider permanently stranded" - may be 'sorta valid' based upon your sample thread, but is really of little real value to the person who knows the've had one DESS 'failure to start' but hasn't yet had any 'fix' done, & so rydes never knowing if they'll be able to start again if they ever stop; and also to the person has been unable to start their Spyder NOW due to a DESS issue and remains unable to do so, even if just 'for now'... they have No Idea if THIS is going to be their 'permanent failure' or not.... and

    2. You have no real idea about how many of these DESS Failures have actually occurred, apart from knowing that those you've checked out are likely to be just a portion of the whole - BRP doesn't/can't know either, and aren't telling anyway, and both you & BRP don't even know now nor will ever be able to know if there are just a few more, or those you've considered/they've recorded are just the tip of the iceberg!! aand

    3. Even your last conclusion - "The only guarantee of never having the DESS error occur is to disable the DESS altogether, however, the vast majority of bikes of 2014 and 2015 vintage will not experience the DESS problem" - is fraught with difficulties. Yes, the first part, the bolded bit, is a valid assumption & AFAIK, correct, but because of the points numbered 1 & 2 above, you really can't safely assume that the second (unbolded) part of your conclusion is valid for anything but those DESS issues reported in the thread you reviewed!

    Just Sayin'
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 07-25-2022 at 10:12 PM.
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  3. #3
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    I agree, Peter. But, I wasn't claiming to be an expert or authority on the subject. I just presented my findings and my personal conclusions along with the database and people are welcome to draw their own conclusions. No argument from me.

    By the way, Deanna's thread is the one you referred to in a different thread and suggested I should read it all the way through before jumping to conclusions, so that is what I did.
    Last edited by UtahPete; 07-25-2022 at 10:31 PM.
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  4. #4
    Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Peter Aawen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    ......
    By the way, Deanna's thread is the one you referred to in a different thread and suggested I should read it all the way through before jumping to conclusions, so that is what I did.
    True, but I didn't suggest it just as an invitation to jump at a different set of conclusions ... instead of accepting that it's a real & confronting issue for those experiencing it, simply because they never know when or where it's going to rear its ugly head, or whether this time is going to be the ship stopper!
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 07-25-2022 at 11:33 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Aawen View Post
    True, but I didn't suggest it just as an invitation to jump at a different set of conclusions ... instead of accepting that it's a real & confronting issue for those experiencing it, simply because they never know when or where it's going to rear its ugly head, or whether this time is going to be the ship stopper!
    I wasn't suggesting you did. Can't we agree the data at hand is ambiguous and lends itself to any number of different conclusions?
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  6. #6
    Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Peter Aawen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahPete View Post
    I wasn't suggesting you did. Can't we agree the data at hand is ambiguous and lends itself to any number of different conclusions?
    We certainly can do that...



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