Front tyre sizes. How big can you go? Whats best?

[Isopedella]

Lets discuss sizes and not brands here chaps. Ta.

All this talk about swapping out the front tyres with others.
I looking at the fenders/guard on my 2017 F 3 LTD and wondering about clearance if I stray from the oem tyre size.

Do you have to re-locate the fender/guards little if I mount a bigger or wider tyre?

So I am wondering whats the best size to consider?

Armed with that info I can see whats available here in New Zealand in that size.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Lets discuss sizes and not brands here chaps. Ta.

All this talk about swapping out the front tyres with others.
I looking at the fenders/guard on my 2017 F 3 LTD and wondering about clearance if I stray from the oem tyre size.

Do you have to re-locate the fender/guards little if I mount a bigger or wider tyre?

So I am wondering whats the best size to consider?

Armed with that info I can see whats available here in New Zealand in that size.

Without altering anything ..... don't go larger than 165/60-15 ..... There are ZERO benefits to go wider front or rear, because MORE traction will actually upset the Nanny sooner... I learned after fitting ( not easy ) 185/50-15 Toyo Proxes 1 r tires ... Mike

[Isopedella]

Cheers Mike.
I have a mate with a tyre shop. So I will pop down, steal a coffee and pick his brain.

I do appreciate the advice. Thank you.


Ha late edit.
You and Peter on the same page here. Got to be the correct oil I reckon.

[Piratezz]

I run 175/60-15 Michelin Cross-Climates, and they fit without any alteration to the fenders (Spyder F3s 2019), Nanny behaves like normal.... actually my nanny really likes these tyres...
But I think, if you go bigger than 175, you will have to alter things, and in the long run, the steeringsystem, is going to be a bit more abused.

[Isopedella]

Ha the plot thickens.

[troop]

Their are some trade offs by going wider up front. While they'll like dry pavement, they will have a higher tendency to hydroplane on wet roads...

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I run 175/60-15 Michelin Cross-Climates, and they fit without any alteration to the fenders (Spyder F3s 2019), Nanny behaves like normal.... actually my nanny really likes these tyres...
But I think, if you go bigger than 175, you will have to alter things, and in the long run, the steeringsystem, is going to be a bit more abused.

Pirate, here's a FACT about tires .... not ALL 175/60-15's are the exact same size .... some will fit ( like the Cross-Climmate ) but not All ..... The manufacture's of tires are using a nominal mathematical formula ..... they don't / can't always make them that size ..... over to you Peter ..... Mike

[Peter Aawen]

Pirate, here's a FACT about tires .... not ALL 175/60-15's are the exact same size .... some will fit ( like the Cross-Climmate ) but not All ..... The manufacture's of tires are using a nominal mathematical formula ..... they don't / can't always make them that size ..... over to you Peter ..... Mike

I thought that bit of your post covered it well, Mike! . But if I hafta.....

While SOME larger sized tires might fit, because of the point Mike raised above, if you want to be SURE that a tire will fit without needing to make any mods to the fenders, then....

Without altering anything ..... don't go larger than 165/60-15 ... < snip > ... Mike

. .

[Isopedella]

So is that the optimum sizing 165/60-15?

Not many choices with the oem 165/55-15, but with the 165 60-15 there are quite a few choices.

[Piratezz]

I absolutely agree, with Mike and Peter, they are the tyre guru's, I,ve been reading allot on the forum about tyres, piled up all the advice, and decided for 175/60-15 Michelin's, and no regrets, also been tinkering with tyrepressure, and 1.5 bar does the trick for me....
I learn every day, when reading on this forum.

[Peter Aawen]

So is that the optimum sizing 165/60-15?

Not many choices with the oem 165/55-15, but with the 165 60-15 there are quite a few choices.

Whatever size is 'the optimum' size for you as opposed to anyone else will still depend a little on how you ride, where you ride, the load you carry, and a bunch of other stuff, including whether you want to do any mods to let a given size fit!


But you're right about the better choice range in the 60 profile size - in fact, I'd surmise that at least some of the reasoning behind specifically choosing the OEM 165/50 profile is to make it a bit harder for owners to find size/profile matching alternatives!

The Nanny is well capable of handling size/rolling radius increases of up to about 20mm, so going to a 60 profile tire in a similar width shouldn't be an issue at all, as many of us have found to our great delight! . It's just that as soon as you start going over the OEM 165 width, you'll need to look at things that might rub or otherwise interfere with the tire's free rolling &/or the brake & maybe their efficiency, altho as Mike mentioned earlier, fitting anything much wider in a quality car tire (run at the right lower pressure for the lighter load, of course! ) does pose a risk of providing too much traction for the fairly rudimentary suspension to handle in a way that doesn't start to upset the Nanny!

So for those who DON'T want to do anything besides remove & refit a different sized tire, the 165/60R15's are most likely going to be it! : thumbup:

However, for MY riding needs & wants, where I do tend to do a lot of long, relatively high speed, and hot miles; as well as a heap of working it hard thru the fairly tight twisties; all in every sort of weather condition & on all sorts of road surfaces, only some of which are sealed; I've found that 175/55R15's in an All Season Sport/Performance tire performs best and also happens to last very well too! But I have made some minor mods to my inner fenders, swapping out all the Hex head screws for Pan Head screws & re-routing some of the wires to avoid rubbing - and I hafta lift the fender lip a touch in order to slip the tire under it when putting the wheels back on - so that might not suit some or even too many!

[Isopedella]

Not that I like to fiddle with stuff

But did you do a post on your changes at all?

[Peter Aawen]

Not that I like to fiddle with stuff

But did you do a post on your changes at all?

I've posted details more than once, but it's simple really - take a front wheel off & look into the space left... In there, you'll see a bunch of Hex Heads that protrude into the wheel well. Take one out, it's a screw - find enough Pan Head (ie, almost completely flat without becoming countersunk) screws, with heads that will fit flush into the recesses left without protruding - you need sufficient to replace all the Hex Head screws, & once you've got them, do just that - replace them all! That's so the Hex Heads won't be left sticking out into the wheel well where they can scrape on the tire

Then look for any wires running up the insides of the Fender Support Struts - if there are any, move them so that they aren't projecting into the wheel well & secure them in place with zip ties or whatever won't intrude into the wheel well space! That'll stop you ripping the fender light wires out, or wearing them thru!

Once all that's done, refit the wheel & inspect it & the wheel well closely looking for anything that might get close to a 10mm wider & taller tire - fix as appropriate! If necessary, you might need to remove the Fenders & their Support Struts so that you can fit a couple of washers under each of the bracket ends between them & the mounting points - but not under the bolt heads! The idea is to space the Fender Support Struts/brackets further away from the points they mount on in order to give the wheel more room. If that doesn't give you enough, you can always gently bend the struts away from the wheel a little, but you probably shouldn't need to do that for anything less than a fairly large 185 tire!

Now, all that said, unless you REALLY do a lot of long hot miles, you will probably be doing more harm than benefit by fitting any tires much wider than 165 up front! Even with the 165 wide tires your Spyder is already somewhat OVER-tired, and once you've got the alignment & ride height, camber etc right, just about anything up front will last for ages cos quite simply, the 165's are already wider than is strictly necessary, so they aren't working too hard at all - but neither are they providing a massive amount of 'grip'!! With the OE tires, it's pretty easy to induce a front end skid in just about any conditions &/or circumstances; and that's still possible even with high performance road/track tires that are up to temp given appropriate conditions!! All of which means that you really need to keep your alignment up to speed or you riskmscrubbing tires out very quickly, but you are REALLY walking a fine line when it comes to wet or otherwise compromised/slick surfaces, all largely due to the almost excessive WIDTH of the front tires!! . So if you don't want to be riding on your tippy toes all the time in the wet/marginal conditions, or having the Nanny cut in all the bloody time whenever you're pushing it thru the twisties in the dry/better conditions, then I'd REALLY think twice before going too much wider than 165 up front (& a 225 on the rear too! ) regardless of what make/type/profile OR pressure you might run in them!

From what I can recall of your NZ roads (& it's only been a few years! ) you don't really get the opportunity to do the long hot miles that we can do over here in Oz; and your 'less well-surfaced roads' would be better addressed by running a higher profile tire than a wider tire too! So in the absence of any other info/detail that might sway me towards recommending otherwise, I'd suggest that a 165/60 would probably be a much better fit for you & your local roads than a 175/55! . Unless of course you just want to go wider for the looks & don't really care too much about improving or even just maintaining the levels of ride, handling in the dry & the wet, tire longevity, etc that you currently get? But, it still IS your Spyder....

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I've posted details more than once, but it's simple really - take a front wheel off & look into the space left... In there, you'll see a bunch of Hex Heads that protrude into the wheel well. Take one out, it's a screw - find enough Pan Head (ie, almost completely flat without becoming countersunk) screws, with heads that will fit flush into the recesses left without protruding - you need sufficient to replace all the Hex Head screws, & once you've got them, do just that - replace them all! That's so the Hex Heads won't be left sticking out into the wheel well where they can scrape on the tire

Then look for any wires running up the insides of the Fender Support Struts - if there are any, move them so that they aren't projecting into the wheel well & secure them in place with zip ties or whatever won't intrude into the wheel well space! That'll stop you ripping the fender light wires out, or wearing them thru!

Once all that's done, refit the wheel & inspect it & the wheel well closely looking for anything that might get close to a 10mm wider & taller tire - fix as appropriate! If necessary, you might need to remove the Fenders & their Support Struts so that you can fit a couple of washers under each of the bracket ends between them & the mounting points - but not under the bolt heads! The idea is to space the Fender Support Struts/brackets further away from the points they mount on in order to give the wheel more room. If that doesn't give you enough, you can always gently bend the struts away from the wheel a little, but you probably shouldn't need to do that for anything less than a fairly large 185 tire!

Now, all that said, unless you REALLY do a lot of long hot miles, you will probably be doing more harm than benefit by fitting any tires much wider than 165 up front! Even with the 165 wide tires your Spyder is already somewhat OVER-tired, and once you've got the alignment & ride height, camber etc right, just about anything up front will last for ages cos quite simply, the 165's are already wider than is strictly necessary, so they aren't working too hard at all - but neither are they providing a massive amount of 'grip'!! With the OE tires, it's pretty easy to induce a front end skid in just about any conditions &/or circumstances; and that's still possible even with high performance road/track tires that are up to temp given appropriate conditions!! All of which means that you really need to keep your alignment up to speed or you riskmscrubbing tires out very quickly, but you are REALLY walking a fine line when it comes to wet or otherwise compromised/slick surfaces, all largely due to the almost excessive WIDTH of the front tires!! . So if you don't want to be riding on your tippy toes all the time in the wet/marginal conditions, or having the Nanny cut in all the bloody time whenever you're pushing it thru the twisties in the dry/better conditions, then I'd REALLY think twice before going too much wider than 165 up front (& a 225 on the rear too! ) regardless of what make/type/profile OR pressure you might run in them!

From what I can recall of your NZ roads (& it's only been a few years! ) you don't really get the opportunity to do the long hot miles that we can do over here in Oz; and your 'less well-surfaced roads' would be better addressed by running a higher profile tire than a wider tire too! So in the absence of any other info/detail that might sway me towards recommending otherwise, I'd suggest that a 165/60 would probably be a much better fit for you & your local roads than a 175/55! . Unless of course you just want to go wider for the looks & don't really care too much about improving or even just maintaining the levels of ride, handling in the dry & the wet, tire longevity, etc that you currently get? But, it still IS your Spyder....

... with almost all of those things ..... however from trying them, I wouldn't try BENDING the support brackets...( I have done this, but bending them exactly the same isn't easy ) . I would add one or two ( depending on thickness ) WASHERS to the wheel posts ( get washers that are the exact size of the Bolts, so they are tight ) ..... JMHO ..... Mike

[Isopedella]

Cheers for that.
Pick up some new Pan Head screws. Check for 10mm clearance. Correct size washers under the brackets if required. Resist bending the brackets.

Re the road conditions with a temperate climate here in New Zealand. Bang on. Not like Aus heat for sure. It was + 40 last time I was over there around New Year. - ACT -Wagga Wagga - Snowy Mountains - Cooma. Then a short hop up to Dubbo and environs and home via Mount Panorama. But here in NZ, well hardly a straight road in sight, mostly corners from top to bottom. Plenty of wet roads here in Aotearoa - Land of the long white cloud, its a rain cloud. So wet grip and cornering top of the list.

Cheers for the advice. I will check out Bobs selection of 165/60 R15. He has Kumho among others I have seen.


Then get the all important alignment sorted.
Found a place where they do the Spyders 90 minutes away next door to a Can Am dealer.

I have found specs of Toe-in: 0 +/- 0.2 degrees Camber: 0 +/- 0.5 degrees. Is this correct???

And also check the front shocks are set up to 420mm c to c on the mount bolts.

Not that I like to fiddle with stuff at all.

[Isopedella]

P.S.

I mention the brand reluctantly as many of the brands and type configurations I have seen discussed here simply are not available here in New Zealand.

[Peter Aawen]

......

Then get the all important alignment sorted.
Found a place where they do the Spyders 90 minutes away next door to a Can Am dealer.

I have found specs of Toe-in: 0 +/- 0.2 degrees Camber: 0 +/- 0.5 degrees. Is this correct???

And also check the front shocks are set up to 420mm c to c on the mount bolts.

Not that I like to fiddle with stuff at all.

I would suggest that while those settings might be what's been specified by BRP or someone else along the way, the 0 +/- bit means they are inadequate for 'real life' use!! . You really need to have some Toe-IN, so zero is not going to be enough as a start point; cos if you use 0 +/- 0.2 degrees you could end up with Toe OUT of 0.2 degrees!! Not Good & Not Enough!! Using the figures you found, you'll need to aim for a minimum of 0.2 degrees of Toe IN!

As for the Camber, there is no easy way to adjust that, and it will largely be determined by your shock length & loaded ride height. Plus, the same 0 +/- thing that applies to your Toe also applies to Camber; you need to have some Negative Camber, so zero is not a good starting point! . So once again using the figures you supplied, if you can you should adjust your shock length/loaded ride height from that 420mm in order to give you a minimum of 0.5 degrees of Negative Camber!

Make sense to you?

Ps: I understand & agree with you re the tire brands - I might even go so far as to suggest we could be getting different compound/spec tires in some of brands that we do get in common with North America/Europe

[Isopedella]

Yup. Absolutely. I did wonder about those specs myself.

Ah , so the camber is sorted by the loaded shock setting. Himmmm. . Yup I can see how that works now.

I will discuss the settings with the tech when I take it for the alignment.

minimum of 0.2 degrees of Toe IN / minimum of 0.5 degrees of Negative Camber

Cheers Peter.

[Isopedella]

New tyres today. Ended up getting the KUMHO SOLUS in 165/60 R15. Seems to be enough clearance without doing any mods.

Great for our local coarse chip and tar compounds they use here apparently.

And wouldn't you know it. Another curve-ball. 13/16 for the lug nuts. Had to go and buy one specially. I will store it with my 7mm Allen.

So all fitted up and good to go when it fines up a bit. Booked for an alignment next week.

So ... tyre pressures with these puppies. Any suggestions?

[Peter Aawen]

.....

So ... tyre pressures with these puppies. Any suggestions?

16 - 18 psi up front to start with, but please bear in mind that with radial tires, harder/more direct steering DOES NOT necessarily mean you are getting better traction &/or control, so to erroneously chase that firmer/more direct 'feel' to the detriment of handling, ride, and wear et al from your tires is really not such a great idea!

Many people have become used to that 'firmer ride' thing thru driving on over-inflated &/or lower profile tires, but the reality is that radial tires in particular NEED to flex somewhat in order to keep the contact patch firmly on the ground and work their best for you, altho going too low is also a risk! So start with your cold start tire pressures at 18 psi & look for a 4psi increase after an hour's riding - LESS than a 4psi increase means your cold start pressure was too HIGH, drop a psi out before ypur next ride; while MORE than a 4psi increase means your cold start pressure was too LOW, so add a psi before your next ride. Altho the vast majority of Spyders & the tires they can wear will easily fall within that 16-18 psi range, spending a little bit of time now in getting close to the ideal pressure for YOU & YOUR riding, load, surfaces, etc will pay you back in better ride, handling, traction, puncture resistance, tire life et al throughout the tire's life.....

That said, if the Kumho's you get over there under that Long White Cloud are anything like those we get here in Oz, there's a good chance that as they wear, the tread compound will gradually get harder as you wear it down; so if you start out at about 18 psi in a brand new tire, by about 15,000 km or so on that tire you'll probably find their wet road traction is beginning to fade juust a little, so you should start to gradually reduce your cold start pressures over the second 15,000 km or so down to about that 16 psi in order to maintain the tire's traction & longevity; and once down to 16 or there-abouts, learn to ride within the traction you've got for the rest of the tire's life - it's still going to be way better than the traction you got from the Kendas, and if you do pay attention to your tire pressures, you should get significantly greater tire life from them than you got from the Kendas too... even on the front! (I'm still running only my second set of Oz spec Kumho's up front, and with a little attention to running the right pressure, both these & the first set have worked well for quite a few more kms/miles than most here seem to have done on their Spyders total! Certainly they're returning more than double the kms the OE Kendas usually return, and in doing so, they've provided exponentially better traction, ride, handling etc every step of the way too!

Btw, I really wouldn't suggest you ever go much below a minimum of about 14 psi ever in order to keep getting that 4psi increase after an hour's riding on any tire you fit onto a Spyder, altho there are a few here who've inadvertently run pressures as low as 8psi for quite a few thousand miles without any major issues - but I don't believe it's worth deliberately chancing the potential downsides!

Enjoy!

[Tonylmiller]

Pirate, here's a FACT about tires .... not ALL 175/60-15's are the exact same size .... some will fit ( like the Cross-Climmate ) but not All ..... The manufacture's of tires are using a nominal mathematical formula ..... they don't / can't always make them that size ..... over to you Peter ..... Mike

In the end, the mold determines the final tire dimensions for a given wheel and inflation pressure. But every tire size has tolerances. The tire manufactures do have control over it, but the size will vary within those tolerances. For example, if a certain tire maker wants to save on materials, they can target the low side of tolerances.

So yes, there will be some differences among tires which are the same nominal size. But it is not based on some mathematical formula. It is based on the dimensions of the mold.

[Isopedella]

Ta for that pressure advice, especially backing it off a touch after a time.

re the "LESS than a 4psi increase means your cold start pressure was too HIGH, drop a psi out before your next ride; while MORE than a 4psi increase means your cold start pressure was too LOW, so add a psi before your next ride" I was aware than a underinflated tyre will heat up and eventually cause a catastrophic tyre failure of the sidewalls and deflate without ceremony. So that makes a lot of sense.

I have a 90 minute ride to get the alignment sorted so I will stop at Patea which is about 1 hr into it and see if I get the Majic 4 psi. There are many sets of corners with much lower speed advisory signs along the way so it will be an interesting ride back home. Could be fun.

Any thoughts on Bobs comment to me that he believes on our local road type construction with the coarse chip and tar compounds used here the non directional tyre is a better choice? No concrete and the hot mix is not the norm for quite a bit of it. Mostly chip. He is a big fan of that Solus.

ku 31 1 20220615_154655.jpg ku31 2 20220615_155627.jpg

[Peter Aawen]

......

Any thoughts on Bobs comment to me that he believes on our local road type construction with the coarse chip and tar compounds used here the non directional tyre is a better choice? No concrete and the hot mix is not the norm for quite a bit of it. Mostly chip. He is a big fan of that Solus.

.......

I'd tend to agree - in my experience, directional tire treads that've been designed with a specific surface or traction situation in mind generally work best at that task, and it's usually at either of the further ends of the 'surface quality & traction' scale as applicable.... Tractor tires, sand paddles, ice spiked tires & their like, running various directional tread patterns designed to suit each of their specific low traction surfaces at one end; with High Performance 'directional tread' tires designed specifically for the modern smooth Highways, Freeways, & Autobahns etc working brilliantly under most conditions they might meet on those surfaces at the other end..... . But just like the tractor tires won't work all that well on those roads designed for high speed travel; the High Performance directional tread tires tend not to work nearly so well on those surfaces where their softer compound tread pattern & siping gets rapidly chewed away by aggressive chip surfaces, or instead may rapidly become filled with the cloying sticky tar goop &/or millions of those little stone chips that get stuck into every gap, just chewing away at it, & not letting go &/or being pumped out or flung out as the tire rotates at the (much??) slower speeds the tires tend to be turning at on those less than ideal roads!! . Make sense??

And yeah, I can see why he's a fan - those 'All Season non-directional' Kumho's that we get on this side of the World do really seem to work & last pretty well on this chip seal stuff regardless of the weather - just so long as you get their pressures reasonably close to 'right' for your riding, loads, etc on the surfaces & in the conditions that you ride on/in! . Mind you, it's not that there's a great variation in that pressure range, but you'd be surprised how much difference a variation of just 2 psi can make in the overall traction you get or in the life of a tire on these pretty aggressive surfaces!! . And of course, there are other 'non-directional' tires that work well too, albeit possibly with slightly different specialities &/or strengths; some of the Michelin offerings, Hankooks, Coopers, & even Dunlop & Bridgestone spring to mind, but there's a lot more that can work & last really well.... just no Kendas that I'm aware of - yet!

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I'd tend to agree - in my experience, directional tire treads that've been designed with a specific surface or traction situation in mind generally work best at that task, and it's usually at either of the further ends of the 'surface quality & traction' scale as applicable.... Tractor tires, sand paddles, ice spiked tires & their like, running various directional tread patterns designed to suit each of their specific low traction surfaces at one end; with High Performance 'directional tread' tires designed specifically for the modern smooth Highways, Freeways, & Autobahns etc working brilliantly under most conditions they might meet on those surfaces at the other end..... . But just like the tractor tires won't work all that well on those roads designed for high speed travel; the High Performance directional tread tires tend not to work nearly so well on those surfaces where their softer compound tread pattern & siping gets rapidly chewed away by aggressive chip surfaces, or instead may rapidly become filled with the cloying sticky tar goop &/or millions of those little stone chips that get stuck into every gap, just chewing away at it, & not letting go &/or being pumped out or flung out as the tire rotates at the (much??) slower speeds the tires tend to be turning at on those less than ideal roads!! . Make sense??

And yeah, I can see why he's a fan - those 'All Season non-directional' Kumho's that we get on this side of the World do really seem to work & last pretty well on this chip seal stuff regardless of the weather - just so long as you get their pressures reasonably close to 'right' for your riding, loads, etc on the surfaces & in the conditions that you ride on/in! . Mind you, it's not that there's a great variation in that pressure range, but you'd be surprised how much difference a variation of just 2 psi can make in the overall traction you get or in the life of a tire on these pretty aggressive surfaces!! . And of course, there are other 'non-directional' tires that work well too, albeit possibly with slightly different specialities &/or strengths; some of the Michelin offerings, Hankooks, Coopers, & even Dunlop & Bridgestone spring to mind, but there's a lot more that can work & last really well.... just no Kendas that I'm aware of - yet!

.. and let me add that I have never heard of anyone with a Spyder riding on " Chip Seal " surfaces had a good outcome. Tires are not the issue or answer to this type of environment. Chip Seal roads ar5e going to do what Chip Seal roads do .... THROW sticky crap, having a good drive belt shield is your only defense. .... good luck .... Mike

[Rattlebars]

Without altering anything ..... don't go larger than 165/60-15 ..... There are ZERO benefits to go wider front or rear, because MORE traction will actually upset the Nanny sooner... I learned after fitting ( not easy ) 185/50-15 Toyo Proxes 1 r tires ... Mike

as per mike's earlier recommendation I bought and installed Toyo Proxes T 185/55-15 and the nanny on my 2016 loves them as much as I do. No complaints from her at all. Ridden in all sorts of weather, no hydroplaning, grip like glue in all conditions & allows turning sharper & faster in all turns & curves. Slight mods on the fenders to accommodate. Details @ the link in my sig.