Electric vehicles and the Grid

[UtahPete]

Well ... Freedom already doesn't mean what it used to , and it has nothing to do with heat, hunger, drought and or pollution ..... JMHO .... Mike

I agree. But I was trying to stay on topic (i.e. the reason governments are trying to promote EVs over ICEs)

[Mazo EMS2]

What happens to the batteries from the EV's that are in crashes and totalled? Are they recycled? I've read and heard that just building the batteries does more harm to our environment than refining fuels. This whole EV thing drives me batty.

[UtahPete]

What happens to the batteries from the EV's that are in crashes and totalled? Are they recycled? I've read and heard that just building the batteries does more harm to our environment than refining fuels. This whole EV thing drives me batty.

Well, at least we are finally starting to develop viable alternatives to ICE for motor transport. We didn't get to space, or get it right with a national railway system, in our first attempts.

[Woodenfish]

Well, at least we are finally starting to develop viable alternatives to ICE for motor transport. We didn't get to space, or get it right with a national railway system, in our first attempts.

What’s wrong with today’s modern ICE? They run very efficiently, have good power, low polluting, reliable, economical, recyclable, can be massed produced easily, the energy supply is widely available, easily transported, quickly refilled, easily repaired, built in the country, can operate in multiple vehicles and implements that have built our country, empowered our freedoms and liberties while building our nation into a superpower, high technologically advanced country that is the envy of the world for over 100 years. I believe there should be freedom of choice and our government should not be in the business of picking winners and losers at the whim of foreign and domestic political elitists at the expense of the working people. That is no Constitutional authority granted to these foreign governments, think tanks, wealthy political classes to control our population and economy. What happened to coexist?

[UtahPete]

What’s wrong with today’s modern ICE? They run very efficiently, have good power, low polluting, reliable, economical, recyclable, can be massed produced easily, the energy supply is widely available, easily transported, quickly refilled, easily repaired, built in the country, can operate in multiple vehicles and implements that have built our country, empowered our freedoms and liberties while building our nation into a superpower, high technologically advanced country that is the envy of the world for over 100 years. I believe there should be freedom of choice and our government should not be in the business of picking winners and losers at the whim of foreign and domestic political elitists at the expense of the working people. That is no Constitutional authority granted to these foreign governments, think tanks, wealthy political classes to control our population and economy. What happened to coexist?

I'm sure that 100 years ago, people wondered the same thing about phasing out horses in favor of cars. Maybe some people are better at looking into the future than others. I don't think there's a dangerous conspiracy at work here.

I think America has such influence and admiration precisely because we have been technology innovators and leaders.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Well, at least we are finally starting to develop viable alternatives to ICE for motor transport. We didn't get to space, or get it right with a national railway system, in our first attempts.

Dear Pete ( correct me if I'm mis-taken on this ) .... I get the impression you feel EV's are necessary ( now & in the future ). I have nothing against EV's, however I do believe in REALITY...... And in reality one has to take into account that even today ( or the in the next FIVE or TEN years ) this country doesn't produce anywhere near the amount of electricity to accomplish what the Govt. is Demanding we all do.... This is FACT not fiction, just go back to last year when Texas .... FROZE .... Texas went Big time into having a lot of things use ONLY Electricity like Homes & factories etc.. and that Idea ... FAILED ..... someday All Electric will be possible but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. .... Here's a question the climate activists ( and or Scientists ) won't answer .... How clean would the air be if the U.S. was totally " pollution free ". I've heard numbers like 1 to 2 % , for the entire planet. The three biggest nations that create pollution are China, India, & Russia and they arn't doing much if anything to fix this situation. I'm all for saving the planet - but it can't be done by one Nation and it's population ALONE. Think of it this way, if you decide to stop eating, so there will be more food for the rest of the people who are starving - how many people will be saved when you die of starvation .... ???? .... PS nothing I've said is an attack on you or anyone else, this is my opinion about energy ..... nothing more , nothing less ......Mike

[UtahPete]

Dear Pete ( correct me if I'm mis-taken on this ) .... I get the impression you feel EV's are necessary ( now & in the future ). I have nothing against EV's, however I do believe in REALITY...... And in reality one has to take into account that even today ( or the in the next FIVE or TEN years ) this country doesn't produce anywhere near the amount of electricity to accomplish what the Govt. is Demanding we all do.... This is FACT not fiction, just go back to last year when Texas .... FROZE .... Texas went Big time into having a lot of things use ONLY Electricity like Homes & factories etc.. and that Idea ... FAILED ..... someday All Electric will be possible but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. .... Here's a question the climate activists ( and or Scientists ) won't answer .... How clean would the air be if the U.S. was totally " pollution free ". I've heard numbers like 1 to 2 % , for the entire planet. The three biggest nations that create pollution are China, India, & Russia and they arn't doing much if anything to fix this situation. I'm all for saving the planet - but it can't be done by one Nation and it's population ALONE. Think of it this way, if you decide to stop eating, so there will be more food for the rest of the people who are starving - how many people will be saved when you die of starvation .... ???? .... PS nothing I've said is an attack on you or anyone else, this is my opinion about energy ..... nothing more , nothing less ......Mike

Hi, Mike. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

You mention the failures in Texas with its power grid being overwhelmed by a massive state-wide freeze. It was awhile back, so I don't remember the details, but my impression is that was unique to Texas, with its fragmented, unregulated power supply system. Unlike other states, which typically have one or two highly regulated state-wide power companies, Texas allows entrepreneurial power companies to proliferate and compete against each other for customers' business. That worked to consumers' advantage for a long time, producing some of the lowest costs for electricity in the country.

But, when that storm hit, the system broke down and couldn't handle the massive supply/demand imbalance, leaving many of these smaller power companies unable to buy enough power at a low enough price to meet their customers' needs or expectations of cheap electricity. So, I think what happened then in Texas is more of a lesson in the dangers of lack of regulation than an indication of a weakness in the national power grid.

[UtahPete]

Dear Pete ( correct me if I'm mis-taken on this ) .... I get the impression you feel EV's are necessary ( now & in the future ). I have nothing against EV's, however I do believe in REALITY...... And in reality one has to take into account that even today ( or the in the next FIVE or TEN years ) this country doesn't produce anywhere near the amount of electricity to accomplish what the Govt. is Demanding we all do.... This is FACT not fiction, just go back to last year when Texas .... FROZE .... Texas went Big time into having a lot of things use ONLY Electricity like Homes & factories etc.. and that Idea ... FAILED ..... someday All Electric will be possible but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. .... Here's a question the climate activists ( and or Scientists ) won't answer .... How clean would the air be if the U.S. was totally " pollution free ". I've heard numbers like 1 to 2 % , for the entire planet. The three biggest nations that create pollution are China, India, & Russia and they arn't doing much if anything to fix this situation. I'm all for saving the planet - but it can't be done by one Nation and it's population ALONE. Think of it this way, if you decide to stop eating, so there will be more food for the rest of the people who are starving - how many people will be saved when you die of starvation .... ???? .... PS nothing I've said is an attack on you or anyone else, this is my opinion about energy ..... nothing more , nothing less ......Mike

As to the question of the national power grid being unable to meet the increased demand for electricity if we go all electric with vehicles, it's a little more complicated, but I'll try to keep it simple. First of all, the existing power grid was built to connect sources with customers. Those sources have been, primarily, hydro and fossil fuel-powered plants. That worked well for a long time, but is being stressed by several factors, mostly climate-related.

Hydro still works well east of the Rockies, where water supplies haven't changed much. But in the southwest, climate change has created a mega-drought situation that is reaching catastrophic scale. The drought affects all aspects of life for a large and growing population, but also affects the ability to produce hydro-electric power when reservoir levels and water flows drop precipitously. Solar farms and wind farms are growing to help meet the demand, but the best locations for those have gone untapped because they are hundreds of miles from the existing grid network. So, massive infrastructure needs abound and that's one of the things the stalled infrastructure bill is designed to address.

[UtahPete]

Dear Pete ( correct me if I'm mis-taken on this ) .... I get the impression you feel EV's are necessary ( now & in the future ). I have nothing against EV's, however I do believe in REALITY...... And in reality one has to take into account that even today ( or the in the next FIVE or TEN years ) this country doesn't produce anywhere near the amount of electricity to accomplish what the Govt. is Demanding we all do.... This is FACT not fiction, just go back to last year when Texas .... FROZE .... Texas went Big time into having a lot of things use ONLY Electricity like Homes & factories etc.. and that Idea ... FAILED ..... someday All Electric will be possible but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. .... Here's a question the climate activists ( and or Scientists ) won't answer .... How clean would the air be if the U.S. was totally " pollution free ". I've heard numbers like 1 to 2 % , for the entire planet. The three biggest nations that create pollution are China, India, & Russia and they arn't doing much if anything to fix this situation. I'm all for saving the planet - but it can't be done by one Nation and it's population ALONE. Think of it this way, if you decide to stop eating, so there will be more food for the rest of the people who are starving - how many people will be saved when you die of starvation .... ???? .... PS nothing I've said is an attack on you or anyone else, this is my opinion about energy ..... nothing more , nothing less ......Mike

Lastly, to address the EV questions. EVs are different from ICE-powered vehicles in one very important way for the typical consumer. That is, the ability to be truly independent of the vagaries of the fuel companies. Most trips taken by consumers are well within the range of existing pure battery powered EVs, and can be easily recharged overnight at home with existing residential electrical systems. Since this is at night when power demand and costs are lower, the existing power grid would not be overwhelmed by people charging their EVs.

Furthermore, with the increasing adoption of solar power by residential customers, demand on power companies is actually decreasing in some parts of the country. It is now possible, with large residential batteries like Tesla's, and enough solar panels, for homes to be able to go completely off-grid, which has broad implications for places like the Southwest where sunshine is abundant and hydropower is declining.

The Achilles heel in all of this shift to EVs is with long-haul trucks, motorhomes and others that go beyond the range of current battery technology. Those applications require fast-charging stations located along their route, which of course is the biggest infrastructure challenge. Again, the trillion dollar infrastructure bill stalled in the Senate is designed to fund the buildout of this necessary nationwide network of public fast-charging stations. One idea worth considering is converting many existing gas stations over to electric, but it will take public funding for that to happen.

For freedom-loving Americans this would be manna from heaven. Independence from both fuel companies and power companies. It's already a reality for some people.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Lastly, to address the EV questions. EVs are different from ICE-powered vehicles in one very important way for the typical consumer. That is, the ability to be truly independent of the vagaries of the fuel companies. Most trips taken by consumers are well within the range of existing pure battery powered EVs, and can be easily recharged overnight at home with existing residential electrical systems. Since this is at night when power demand and costs are lower, the existing power grid would not be overwhelmed by people charging their EVs.

Furthermore, with the increasing adoption of solar power by residential customers, demand on power companies is actually decreasing in some parts of the country. It is now possible, with large batteries like Tesla's, and enough solar panels, for homes to be able to go completely off-grid, which has broad implications for places like the Southwest where sunshine is abundant and hydropower is declining.

The Achilles heel in all of this shift to EVs is with long-haul trucks, motorhomes and others that go beyond the range of current battery technology. Those applications require fast-charging stations located along their route, which of course is the biggest infrastructure challenge. Again, the trillion dollar infrastructure bill stalled in the Senate is designed to fund the buildout of this necessary nationwide network of public fast-charging stations. One idea worth considering is converting many existing gas stations over to electric, but it will take public funding for that to happen.

Pete I THANK YOU for your last three posts ( and did ) however I don't agree with any of your conclusions. Sincerely ..... Mike

[UtahPete]

Pete I THANK YOU for your last three posts ( and did ) however I don't agree with any of your conclusions. Sincerely ..... Mike

Mike, maybe you could tell us, point by point, where my assumed facts or conclusions are faulty?

[UtahPete]

Dear Pete ( correct me if I'm mis-taken on this ) .... I get the impression you feel EV's are necessary ( now & in the future ). I have nothing against EV's, however I do believe in REALITY...... And in reality one has to take into account that even today ( or the in the next FIVE or TEN years ) this country doesn't produce anywhere near the amount of electricity to accomplish what the Govt. is Demanding we all do.... This is FACT not fiction, just go back to last year when Texas .... FROZE .... Texas went Big time into having a lot of things use ONLY Electricity like Homes & factories etc.. and that Idea ... FAILED ..... someday All Electric will be possible but it isn't going to happen anytime soon. .... Here's a question the climate activists ( and or Scientists ) won't answer .... How clean would the air be if the U.S. was totally " pollution free ". I've heard numbers like 1 to 2 % , for the entire planet. The three biggest nations that create pollution are China, India, & Russia and they arn't doing much if anything to fix this situation. I'm all for saving the planet - but it can't be done by one Nation and it's population ALONE. Think of it this way, if you decide to stop eating, so there will be more food for the rest of the people who are starving - how many people will be saved when you die of starvation .... ???? .... PS nothing I've said is an attack on you or anyone else, this is my opinion about energy ..... nothing more , nothing less ......Mike

Mike, as to the geopolitical issues you mentioned.

First, I don't think it serves the discussion about alternative power sources to say that the current administration is to blame for the current price increases at the pump. As another SpyderLover has explained eloquently, the US is just one player in a global economy. The White House doesn't have ANY control over prices at the pump because ours is still a free-market economy subject to market supply and demand, and such things as investors' evaluation of risk.

What is happening in Ukraine is affecting the supply, and therefore the price, of all important commodities, not just oil. Up until 3 years ago, the global supply chain for everything consumers depend on, was working pretty well. It was a finely tuned, efficient and effective system that, independent of governments, was producing desired products at low prices because it was a global system. That had been in the makings since Nixon opened up China to free trade and accelerated by the fall of the Iron curtain.

Covid-19 changed all that. And Russia's invasion of Ukraine has pretty much destroyed the global supply chain once and for all. It will take decades to return to the relative global prosperity we have all enjoyed for so long. Not just prosperity, but food and housing security. We are in deep doo-doo and we need to figure out how to survive not only a disruption of supply but also a permanent climate change and global warming.

Pointing fingers has never solved mankind's problems and never will. Neither will clinging to old ways of doing things.

[2dogs]

Keep your eye on our military. How far and fast do you think a battery powered fighter jet will go, or how far a battery powered tank will have to travel to get to the next charging station? Actually you don't have to worry about that because none of us on this form will be alive to ever see that happen. IF anyone of us were to live long enough to fly on a battery powered jumbo jet,,,,,,,well you get the idea. Think about the navy's latest sub that only has to resurface to take on food for its crew. It's only partially battery powered. What do you think charges those batteries and what powered all the equipment to manufacture one of those subs? Fossil fuels will be the go-to source for power for many many decades to come. JMHO

[UtahPete]

Keep your eye on our military. How far and fast do you think a battery powered fighter jet will go, or how far a battery powered tank will have to travel to get to the next charging station? Actually you don't have to worry about that because none of us on this form will be alive to ever see that happen. IF anyone of us were to live long enough to fly on a battery powered jumbo jet,,,,,,,well you get the idea.

Think about the navy's latest sub that only has to resurface to take on food for its crew. It's only partially battery powered. What do you think charges those batteries and what powered all the equipment to manufacture one of those subs?

Fossil fuels will be the go-to source for power for many many decades to come. JMHO

For the military and commercial jet applications you mentioned, I agree fossil fuels will be needed into the foreseeable future.

The US Navy subs are powered by nuclear reactors driving conventional steam-driven engine rooms. Not batteries.

The shipyards are powered by grid electricity, not diesel generators.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Mike, maybe you could tell us, point by point, where my assumed facts or conclusions are faulty?

" Faulty " !!!! ... Pete I'm a TWO finger typist ..... So I don't have a few years I want to try and fill your re-quest ... I believe in Free Speech .... even the stuff I don't agree with .... Let's just leave it at " your ideology and mine are like night and day " ...Thank you for your service, and I hope and you can survive today's ( and tomorrow's ) inflation ....... Love .... Mike

[UtahPete]

" Faulty " !!!! ... Pete I'm a TWO finger typist ..... So I don't have a few years I want to try and fill your re-quest ... I believe in Free Speech .... even the stuff I don't agree with .... Let's just leave it at " your ideology and mine are like night and day " ...Thank you for your service, and I hoper and you can survive today's ( and tomorrow's ) inflation ....... Love .... Mike

Sadly, I think you represent the majority view (ideology) on this forum and probably in the country. Fortunately I won't be alive to experience the full consequences of that.

BTW, I type with one finger on my tablet.

[UtahPete]

I hope and you can survive today's ( and tomorrow's ) inflation ....... Love .... Mike

Mike, I've survived many financial setbacks and challenges in my life, and had to adapt to new realities. This is just another. Fortunately, I anticipated a lot of the challenges I would be facing (in our personal circumstances and the changing world order) and already changed our lifestyle to better meet those challenges .

With respect to vehicles, we went from two cars to one very fuel-efficient diesel truck that meets all our current needs quite well, while reducing our overall cost of ownership and operation (fuel, maintenance, repairs, insurance, etc). I don't think today's price shock is going to last all that long - maybe a year or two. When it does come down though I think it will be more in line with what europeans have been paying for a long time.

A much greater concern than energy costs for us in the West is the drought. There's not much we can do about the way our neighbors waste water as if it's an unlimited resource and I'm afraid we are in for some very difficult times on that score.

With respect to inflation generally, most of our current income is from the government and adjusts each year due to inflation, so we're going to be okay.

[2dogs]

That's a pretty common response when folks are clinging to a faith-based ideology rather than dealing with scientific reality.

I enjoy and respect both your and BK's positions and insights. However, I also agree and disagree with each of you both to some degree or another. Learning more here than on many other posts. Thanks for the calm respective exchange.

[UtahPete]

I enjoy and respect both your and BK's positions and insights. However, I also agree and disagree with each of you both to some degree or another. Learning more here than on many other posts. Thanks for the calm respective exchange.

I appreciate your candid and respectful feedback. I am still trying to know, understand and appreciate where "conservatives" are coming from on this and other societal issues.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

The Achilles heel in all of this shift to EVs is with long-haul trucks, motorhomes and others that go beyond the range of current battery technology. Those applications require fast-charging stations located along their route, which of course is the biggest infrastructure challenge.

As far as trucks I believe Tesla would disagree with you. An article I read some time back stated that something like 80 to 90% of truck miles are run in distances within battery range, which is why Tesla is going after that market. IIRC, Tesla is not pursuing the cross country trucking market.

[UtahPete]

As far as trucks I believe Tesla would disagree with you. An article I read some time back stated that something like 80 to 90% of truck miles are run in distances within battery range, which is why Tesla is going after that market. IIRC, Tesla is not pursuing the cross country trucking market.

I agree with Tesla. That's why I said 'long-haul trucks' that travel beyond the battery's range.

Incidentally, I think the same is true of motorcycle miles (most trips are within battery range), which is why H-D and others are leaning into EV technology.

Interestingly, Caterpillar and other heavy equipment and farming equipment manufacturers are also looking into the feasibility of using non-ICE (i.e. battery, fuel cell, etc) propulsion systems.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Hi, Mike. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

You mention the failures in Texas with its power grid being overwhelmed by a massive state-wide freeze. It was awhile back, so I don't remember the details, but my impression is that was unique to Texas, with its fragmented, unregulated power supply system. Unlike other states, which typically have one or two highly regulated state-wide power companies, Texas allows entrepreneurial power companies to proliferate and compete against each other for customers' business. That worked to consumers' advantage for a long time, producing some of the lowest costs for electricity in the country.

But, when that storm hit, the system broke down and couldn't handle the massive supply/demand imbalance, leaving many of these smaller power companies unable to buy enough power at a low enough price to meet their customers' needs or expectations of cheap electricity. So, I think what happened then in Texas is more of a lesson in the dangers of lack of regulation than an indication of a weakness in the national power grid.

The main reason for the failure in Texas during the freeze was faulty risk assessment. Turbines run in the northern states quite nicely during the winter, but they are built to withstand the cold. In Texas the owners and operators of the windmill farm chose to ignore the reality and consequences of something like a 2% probability of freezing weather and did not freeze proof the turbines. It was a gamble based on typical capitalistic risk/investment assessment, and they lost.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I agree with Tesla. That's why I said 'long-haul trucks'

Fair point. I just can't tell by looking at one if it is a long haul or short haul truck!

[UtahPete]

The main reason for the failure in Texas during the freeze was faulty risk assessment. Turbines run in the northern states quite nicely during the winter, but they are built to withstand the cold. In Texas the owners and operators of the windmill farm chose to ignore the reality and consequences of something like a 2% probability of freezing weather and did not freeze proof the turbines. It was a gamble based on typical capitalistic risk/investment assessment, and they lost.

True. The underlying cause being the for-profit free-market approach Texas take to public utilities.

[Cobwebs]

Mike, as to the geopolitical issues you mentioned.

First, I don't think it serves the discussion about alternative power sources to say that the current administration is to blame for the current price increases at the pump. As another SpyderLover has explained eloquently, the US is just one player in a global economy. The White House doesn't have ANY control over prices at the pump because ours is still a free-market economy subject to market supply and demand, and such things as investors' evaluation of risk.

What is happening in Ukraine is affecting the supply, and therefore the price, of all important commodities, not just oil. Up until 3 years ago, the global supply chain for everything consumers depend on, was working pretty well. It was a finely tuned, efficient and effective system that, independent of governments, was producing desired products at low prices because it was a global system. That had been in the makings since Nixon opened up China to free trade and accelerated by the fall of the Iron curtain.

Covid-19 changed all that. And Russia's invasion of Ukraine has pretty much destroyed the global supply chain once and for all. It will take decades to return to the relative global prosperity we have all enjoyed for so long. Not just prosperity, but food and housing security. We are in deep doo-doo and we need to figure out how to survive not only a disruption of supply but also a permanent climate change and global warming.

Pointing fingers has never solved mankind's problems and never will. Neither will clinging to old ways of doing things.

Wow!!!! Sounds like a msm headline post.
Far as I know USA has been the reserve currency and agreements to buy and sell oil was to be in US $. That privelege has been abused and the world is now turning it's back on that deal.
No markets are freely traded any more and the whole ponzy scheme is unravelling. All the gyrations we are seeing are the end of an empire with the globalists hanging on to power by a thread.
You can't print your way out of debt yet that is the plan.
Electric cars will be regulated, taxed, lied about, the same as everything else.
Alternative media is our only hope at the moment for any truth and discussion without censorship.
Sorry to approach your bubble with a pin UtahPete but that is how I see it.