Spyder sat too long - now it sounds/runs bad! Any ideas?

[Pictreed]

We let our Spyder sit too long and now it sounds like it’s only running on one cylinder. We tried the sea foam last year and it slowly cleaned up but now it sounds horrible and sea foam doesn’t help.
I checked the oil and it’s WAY over where it’s supposed to be so I thought cracked block but the coolant is clean.
Im thinking about borescoping the heads but I suspect a sensor got fouled.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Tim

[CopperSpyder]

If the Spyder has been sitting for a long time say a year or so you should drain the gas out, get the tank empty & dry. Change the fuel filter. Refill with fresh gas and try starting. Let the Spyder run and ride if you can. If after a tank of gas if it is still running rough repost for info on vacuum line info. Most of this is a guess, you did not say what year, model, Spyder, how many miles the Spyder has or how long was it setting. So best guess is the gas has gone bad and with the gas today it will pull moisture out of the air adding water into your gas, if your try to start it , it is now in your gas filter also.

[Woodaddict]

you joined in 2019, so if you bought new you would have a 1330cc. unless you bought used, then you have a twin, which has a few more problems. like very fine cracks in vacuum hoses, bad plug wires
would help for us to help identify year and model!

[Peter Aawen]

you joined in 2019, so if you bought new you would have a 1330cc. unless you bought used, then you have a twin, which has a few more problems. like very fine cracks in vacuum hoses, bad plug wires
would help for us to help identify year and model!

In one of his earlier posts back in Sept 2019, Pictreed mentions that his Spyder is a 2014 RT, so that means it's a 1330 Triple & that it is most likely something to do with poor quality gas or a less than ideal supply pressure causing the issues.... or maybe there's been some rodent damage to the wiring over its lay-up period?!? Or possibly somethings blocked a breather vent or clogged the air intake &/or filter??

But beside all that, excess oil that's "WAY over" isn't a great thing for a dry sumped engine like the Rotax triple either, so it might be worthwhile to just drain what's in there & only return a bit less than the recommended capacity, just to be sure to be sure! . If it hasn't run much since the last oil top-up or change, then you may not need to worry about a cracked block just yet (if ever! ) Because they're dry sumped, in my experience too much oil in these pretty robust engines is generally more likely to reveal itself first via excess oil appearing outside the top of the motor thru rocker gaskets etc or the air inlet/filter housing are full of it & it's busy making a (bit of a) mess well before anything else critical can be damaged. .

So because you can't really run it long enough to check the oil level properly at this stage, it's probably a good idea to check how much oil is actually in there by draining it out! No real need to change the filters unless there 's some other indication that warrants that, just remember that the oil capacity without new/empty filters will be somewhat less than that needed for a full oil & filter change! IIRC, the manual will even tell you how much less oil you'll need. . If it's getting close to a scheduled oil/filter change time, why not just do it anyway and then KNOW that you've got the right amount of oil in there to start the season with! . And if instead, the oil is relatively new & unused, then you can simply catch it in a clean container & carefully measure it back into the filler with a funnel or pourer that has a fine metal mesh in it in order to grab any larger particulates that may have made their way in during the drain/refill process. . Once you're SURE the oil quantity in there is reasonably close to correct, even if it's a little under by 1/2 a quart or so, it's still another possible issue excluded, isn't it?!

Over to you Pictreed. Good Luck, hope it's a relatively easy one to sort...

[Bfromla]

We let our Spyder sit too long and now it sounds like it’s only running on one cylinder. We tried the sea foam last year and it slowly cleaned up but now it sounds horrible and sea foam doesn’t help.
I checked the oil and it’s WAY over where it’s supposed to be so I thought cracked block but the coolant is clean.
Im thinking about borescoping the heads but I suspect a sensor got fouled.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Tim

A sensor & or a plug especially if oil way over. Would definitely drain/screen/measure, maybe even send off a sample for testing. Go back with proper amount like Peter suggests Hopefully you can find the culprit & it is just gas that was between seasonal mix changes

[BajaRon]

Good advise. I would add that after draining the fuel tank, etc., get straight, non-ethanol fuel. Premium, if you can find it. Then add some good fuel injection cleaner like Lucas or Chevron's Techron and ride it, if you can. The oil overfill, if that turns out to be correct, is just someone putting too much oil in. Oil level must be checked properly. If you don't, you'll usually overfill. Very common. Obviously, you need to correct that.

You don't have any major issues in that regard.

[Pictreed]

Thanks for the responses. I had some time to look into it. It is a 2014 RT. I ran Sea Foam (1 can to about 5 gallons) through the engine with a large fan blowing in front of it. Let it sit over night and ran it again for another 20 minutes. Then I removed all that old fuel and put in 91 octane Ethynol-free fuel and let it run. I ran it up to 1900 and held it and after about 10 seconds it shot up to 24 so I think the old fuel might have had something to do with it.
I got the Wix fuel filter and went to cut out the old one but the fuel line is cracked between the fuel filter and the tee which I assume is a return line to the fuel tank. I don't think it is leaking because I assume it's under pressure but I need to find out where I should source the fuel line. Does it need to be pressure rated? It's only about 2" long.

Thanks, Tim

[BertRemington]

There are three fuel lines: (1) fuel pump pressure tank to Y-fitting via fuel filter; (2) pressure Y-fitting to fuel rail; and (3) return Y-fitting to tank pressure regulator.

Line 2 is high quality so leave it alone.

Lines (1) and (3) are ordinary quality fuel injector hoses of two different sizes. You can buy them and fuel injector hose clamps at Autozone et al. Replace both hoses. If you are hesitant about this note the relationship of the hoses to the catalytic convertor and decide whether you want a long-term relationship with this Spyder.

WRT long-term you need to change the coolant and the brake fluid. After you change the oil and both filters (engine and HCM). Makes for happy safe riding.

[NateNC]

Pictreed,

After you get your fuel line figured out and drain the tank I suggest you look into Redline Fuel System Cleaner. A lot of Snake oil in the market for Fuel System cleaners but I've had really good luck with Redline over the years and I recommend it to a lot of friends that have let their bike sit with bad gas for too long. The reason I suggest Redline is the amount of (PEA) PolyEther Amine they put in their product. If you still have the problem after a few hours of running the machine might need to look at the spark plugs depending on the last time they were changed out.

[Pictreed]

Bert, it looks like this photoPhoto on 8-9-23 at 5.09 PM.jpg

[Pictreed]

Seems like my other post disappeared. Thanks Bert, I'll be going through everything. I've got half the bike apart and decided it's too much to pull apart just to put new plugs and borescope. It only has 10,000 miles so they "should" be fine but I don't know what this bike has been through.
It's my wife's so I need to go through it thoroughly. She has complained about the mushy brakes.
I'm trying to find an African Twin so I don't have to ride her around all the time but she takes it out alone so it needs to be gone through.
Nate, I'll try the Redline. I used their products in my dirt bikes and model airplane engines.

Tim

[BertRemington]

Tim -- the picture is correct. The straight-thru portion of the Y is pressure (pump in tank to left, fuel injector rail to the right). The Y fitting is fragile and replacements don't seem to be at your local auto supply store. The angled leg of the Y returns fuel to the pressure regulator in the gas tank.

As part of your brake flush, install speed bleeders https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...=1#post1592737 https://www.amazon.com/Goodridge-Mot...dp/B0016554TA/

Due to the VCM/ABS the brake system is a bit complicated so you want to flush twice. If you don't use most of a 16oz can then flush again. https://www.amazon.com/Brake-Bleedin...dp/B075MNKW93/

[BertRemington]

I'm really not a fan of draining the gas tank. There is so much that can go wrong, especially with a 9 year old Spyder whose plastic fittings and gaskets have gotten brittle. If you are worried about octane (you shouldn't because the 1330cc has a knock sensor) then add an octane booster. If you are worried about water there's additives for that. If there's rust in the tank the fuel filter will catch it. Just ride it gently for at least one full tank of gas and things will be fine.

[Pictreed]

There is a small 2” piece of hose between the filter and the “y” and that’s the one that is cracked. I’m at Autozone now. I’ll run in and grab some fuel injector line.

[Pictreed]

Not sure if they gave me high pressure line

IMG_8610.jpg

[BertRemington]

The pressure isn't that high so 50060 will be good. Would have liked to see the SAE code though. Should be 30R7.

[Pictreed]

Ok, my Autozone is garbage but the O’Reilys came through. And it’s SAE 30R14T2
IMG_8613.jpg

[BertRemington]

Excellent

[Pictreed]

I got the fuel filter in and the 2” long line replaced but I noticed the 1/4” return line is cracked too so back to O’Riely’s (unless it has a special fitting and needs to be sourced from Can-Am).
There wasn’t the outer corrugated plastic sleeve so I assume the heat made it crack. I need to find a source for those sleeves. It did an excellent job protecting the other lines.
IMG_8619.jpg

[BajaRon]

I got the fuel filter in and the 2” long line replaced but I noticed the 1/4” return line is cracked too so back to O’Riely’s (unless it has a special fitting and needs to be sourced from Can-Am).
There wasn’t the outer corrugated plastic sleeve so I assume the heat made it crack. I need to find a source for those sleeves. It did an excellent job protecting the other lines.
IMG_8619.jpg

O'Riely's, or any auto parts house, will have those corrugated plastic sleeves in different diameters.

Sleeve.jpg

[Pictreed]

Well, it's still running like poop. Feels like a cylinder isn't firing. I has no power and even sounds like a cylinder is missing.

So I'm thinking about taking it the rest of the way apart so I can get to the engine and need some advice from those who work on their engines. I'm work on my plane engine and have rebuilt 2 VW Beetle engines so I'm mechanical but we are talking about 1950s technology.

I want to pull the spark plugs and scope the cylinders and clean the fuel injectors with some Hoppe's gun cleaner.

Thanks for all your advice. Tim

[Pictreed]

CopperSpyder, what's up with the vacuum line? To save you some reading it's a 2014 RT with about 10,000 miles. Some of the exposed fuel lines were cracked and I've replaced the cracked line and fuel filter. But before that I ran Sea Foam (snake oil) through it, let it sit over night, and ran it for about 5 minutes again, drained the fuel and put in 91 oct ethanol free fuel.

[BertRemington]

Pictreed -- some guidance:

(1) As I said above "Replace both hoses. If you are hesitant about this note the relationship of the hoses to the catalytic convertor and decide whether you want a long-term relationship with this Spyder."

(2) As I said above "fuel injector hose clamps"

(3) The interior wall of BRP fuel lines can separate from the nylon mesh and interfere with the flow of fuel. Replacing the two fuel hoses is you next step. Yes I know I'm repeating myself. Apparently it's necessary.

(4) Describe the engine performance more completely including throttle position, throttle position change (the Spyder is throttle-by-wire so the stepper motor might be having trouble moving the throttle plate), engine temperature, engine speed. After running the engine for three minutes, are the three separate header pipes' temperatures the same, both closest to the engine and closest to the convertor. What is the nature of the misses -- pops, no-fire, multi-fire? Do you smell raw fuel from the exhaust (the 1330cc runs rich when cold so you're trying for raw fuel, not rich mixture smell).

(5) Is there a possibility of insect or rodent infestation? The air filter is easy to access. And inspect the wiring. Might as well get used to taking the bodywork off -- it's a Spyder-thing.

(6) The 1330cc is a dry sump, DOHC, oil- and water-cooled tightly integrated engine with ALL that implies. In simple terms, it ain't borescope friendly. So just set that approach aside. Especially since that isn't where your problem lies.

(7) Very possibly you have sticky fuel injectors. Hopefully not. Not hard to get to, just tedious (same as spark plugs and then a bit further to remove another air box).

(8) If the Spyder was exposed to an outdoors environment for six or more months it's time to make the acquaintance with your fuse boxes. Take a few fuses out and see if they need cleaning. If they do then clean all of them including the relays.

(9) And then there's the battery. If it's more than a year old, don't bother testing it just replace it. And if you're not charging it every night while you're chasing your gremlins then charge it every night. Spyder's got a thing for batteries too.

The good news is the 1330cc engine is robust so this problem will have a fairly simple fix. But you gotta get that borescope fantasy out of your head...

Best wishes.

[Pictreed]

Dang Bert, why the hostility? You live in a beautiful part of the country and have a couple bikes which I assume are running and your not working on them in 105 degree heat.

Are you saying don't use those hose clamps? If so I'll look into "fuel injector" hose clamps.

My primary goal was to replace the fuel filter to see if that was the issue but it appears I'll be taking all the other advice you gave sooner than later.
Since I'll have it apart I'll have to make a list of items and just start updating it.

I did order the BajaRon ignition wires and fine wire plugs. Looks like I'll be looking for a fuel line crimper and other lines and such.

[BertRemington]

I'm "hostile" because I don't want to be a party to a gasoline fire.

Your first post: "only running on one cylinder. We tried the sea foam last year and it slowly cleaned up"

"last year" was at least 8 months ago but the 1330cc will accept even year-old gasoline.

You then said "I checked the oil and it’s WAY over". That's normal for the 1330cc dry sump when it's hasn't been run until the engine is warm.

And then "Im thinking about borescoping the heads but I suspect a sensor got fouled."

"borescoping the heads" -- WTF? And there's only the one head.

"sensor got fouled" -- good call, let's go with that.

NO mention of fuel filter!

Your second post discussed how new fuel seemed to have improved things and your decision to replace the fuel filter. I responded with some suggestions based on my 2014 RT-S fuel filter replacement experience.

From there the dialog kinda wandered. Until you posted with photos showing only the 2" section replaced using worm gear clamps.

Gasoline under pressure is dangerous and those fuel lines, hidden behind the bodywork, are above the catalytic convertor. A leak while you and your wife are riding in boondocks Dallas could result in the loss to this forum of all three of you. Don't think it hasn't happened? A 990cc Spyder was lost to fire from such a leak (the rider is safe).

Sooo wishing you, your wife and your Spyder many years of happy riding I tried again.

Here is a fuel injection hose clamp https://www.autozone.com/gaskets-and...ack/800000_0_0

Notice the interior metal band that slides within the outer band. That ensures constant torque for the full circumference of the hose as the clamp is tightened. The Oetiker clamp tool is not required.

Your last post "I did order the BajaRon ignition wires and fine wire plugs." The 1330cc engine doesn't have ignition wires. And the BajaRon plug kit is excellent because it includes both the thermal paste and silicone lubricant, both of which must be used properly and with care. But at 10K miles spark plugs are very unlikely to be the problem.

Which is likely to be a sensor as you said in your first post (crankshaft position is common).

So best wishes and sayo naraba.