My experience with Motul 7100 15W50

[BertRemington]

This is my story of my experience with Motul 7100 15W50 in my 2014 RT-S SE6.

It is a story which began in January 2021 when I bought the RT-S and will continue into the future as I gain experience.

It is a story where I will make recommendations but not for a specific lubricant. Nor will I criticize a specific lubricant.

It is a story where you may join with your story without it considered hijacking.

And that is why I'm posting in Off Topic.

[BertRemington]

For several years I've been helping a friend with his SCTA roadster (I'm the wiring guy) whose workshop is in Valley Center about an hour's ride from home. I mostly rode my Moto Guzzi Norge which has a sports-touring fairing and too much horsepower. It worked for a year or two then I gave it to a nephew. To this day I'm surprised I still have my license.

The reason I parted from the Norge was I couldn't ride from home, put in a six hour day, and ride home without being dangerously fatigued. And I didn't want to take my Windstar because I like carpool lanes and because Windstar...

I first considered the Polaris. Awesome machine except kinda low. And then I took some measurements. It was just as wide and only six inches shorter than my E350. That's crazy.

A neighbor drove by every day in this noisy 3-wheeler (which I discovered later was a Ryker) so I looked at Spyders. Quickly decided on the 1330cc version. I wanted to get an F3 because I intended to mount two H&B 38L Xceed side cases to carry parts, tools, etc. I had a 2019 Moto Guzzi V7 III that I was losing trust in for trade-in. But nobody selling Spyders wanted an MG. And then one night I checked Craig's List and about 5 miles away was my future RT-S and RT-622.

Because I was the third owner and the second owner seemed to be a pass-through I didn't have any service history and not much riding history. The second owner thought its 77K miles was mostly 2-up with trailer riding in the Southwest. So I established a maintenance baseline for everything.

I could tell from my first ride the gear shift was electro-mechanical and the clutch engagement was hydraulic. When I removed the bodywork, I discovered the TCM was as big as the ECM. Oops this hydraulic stuff was serious.

[Little Blue]

Anything to report on your Spyder engine oil.
Maybe you need more time to get any real information.
I will try to be patient and see how things go. ..... : )

[spyder01]

[BertRemington]

It was quickly apparent from reading the operator manual and posts at this very very helpful website that reliable generation and distribution of electrical power was critical to proper vehicle operation so I installed a Shorai LFX36L3-BS12 battery and a GlowShift voltmeter to monitor it in the left-hand dashboard position.

My experience with previous elderly vehicles and this one showed the benefits of oil pressure data for diagnosing and maintaining powertrain performance so I installed a Glowshift oil pressure gauge in the right-hand dashboard position.

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...=1#post1562238

My first oil change (both filters) was BRP's semi-synthetic 5W40. The old oil flowed well but was black. There were sparklies in the drain pan but nothing concerning. Ditto for jaggies on the gearbox magnetic drain plug (I replaced both plugs with GoldPlug).

For the first 1K miles there was happiness. Cold oil pressure was 58psi (the relief pressure) and was what I observed at 75mph in 6th gear in the carpool lane. Hot oil pressure at idle was 18psi. However oil pressure varied widely with rpm and, surprisingly, ambient temperature.

Oil pressure was both entertaining and concerning (the voltmeter was boring).

By the time 2K miles arrived, carpool lane oil pressure was 50psi and idle was 12psi.

I described the Rotax engine to my friend who runs SCTA roadsters (he has his own dynamometer) and the oil pressures I was observing. His response is don't worry about idle and the running oil pressures were fine.

But I was unhappy with shifting performance which continued to degrade in consistency and exhibited what I considered engagement slip in too many instances.

[BertRemington]

SE6 Basic Information.jpg

SE6 Transmission Subsystems.jpg

SE6 and SM6 Comparison.jpg
Note: Clutch clamping with hydraulic force via clutch piston

HCM Functional Flow.jpg

HCM Operation 1.jpg HCM Operation 2.jpg HCM Components.jpg

HCM V11 Line Pressure Spool Valve.jpg HCM V21 Clutch Spool Valve.jpg

A transmission with its own pressure pump and three pressure circuits; a 21-wire (one-third the ECM) TCM with its own oil pressure and temperature sensors; and a plethora of valves.

[BertRemington]

My second oil change (both filters) was Lamonster/Spectro synthetic 5W40. The old BRP oil flowed well but was black. There were sparklies in the drain pan but nothing concerning. Ditto for jaggies on the engine and gearbox magnetic drain plugs (both GoldPlug).

And my experience was similar to the BRP oil.

For the first 1K miles there was happiness. Cold oil pressure was 58psi (the relief pressure) and was what I observed at 75mph in 6th gear in the carpool lane. Hot oil pressure at idle was 18psi. However oil pressure varied widely with rpm and, surprisingly, ambient temperature.

By the time 2K miles arrived, carpool lane oil pressure was 50psi and idle was 12psi.

But I was unhappy with shifting performance which continued to degrade in consistency and exhibited what I considered engagement slip in too many instances.

[BertRemington]

I live and ride in an easy-on-machinery and rider environment: San Diego County. Sunshine most of the time with lows in the 30s (mountains) to highs in the 100s (east of I15). Most of my miles are in the carpool lane at 75mph (3800rpm). Then stop-and-go surface roads at speeds up to 70mph (backcountry is kinda crazy). Sometimes mountain roads where, for the most part, I stay in 4th gear and let the Rotax's 4K powerband do all the work.

The Rotax engine is a sweetie. Never fussy and just a smooth cruiser on the freeway. Exactly what I wanted and needed.

But I'm unhappy with the inconsistency of upshifts (and sometimes downshifts).

When the engine is cool (1 or no temperature bars) the shifts are almost undetectable, just like the 1998 BMW 750iL I once owned (and escaped from before it became an addiction). At 2 or more temperature bars shifts become inconsistent, sometimes with harsh clutch engagement and sometimes with what seems to be slipping clutch engagement.

Holding the throttle steady, closing it a tiny bit, or opening it a tiny bit do not provide consistency.

Level ground, slightly uphill, and slightly downhill do not provide consistency.

Slow, medium, and high speeds do not provide consistency.

In stop-and-go traffic, smooth low rpm clutch engagement accelerating from stops becomes delayed and abrupt at higher than usual rpm.

An exception is freeway driving where shifts are more consistent and smooth. Also for the first mile or so after I exit to surface roads, shifts are consistent and smooth. Then they become inconsistent.

It seems to me that shifts become inconsistent as the oil temperature gets higher and the oil pressure become lower.

In my experience this points to, among several factors, oil viscosity.

Other factors include:

(1) clutch plate wear
(2) transmission wear (eg spool valves) outside the TCM's trim range
(3) original TCM firmware for which a update may be available
(4) deterioration in sensor and actuator wiring

I want smooth consistent upshifts and downshifts in all conditions of ambient temperature, engine temperature and road speed.

I'll start with oil viscosity.

[bikerbillone]

Following, thanks.

[pegasus1300]

Thanks Bert. I appreciate your discriptions of your experiences.

[hypurone]

I used to use Motul in ALL my bikes and LOVED it until it became tragically expensive and difficult to find (seems not so much recently)... So I went back to my tried and true Castrol Power RS (now labeled as Power 1).... Not to Hi-Jack your thread but to provide 100,000mi of experience with it in case you want to come to the Dark Side and play.... ;-)

[BertRemington]

With my use of engine oil pressure as a substitute metric for oil viscosity, I spent days searching the oil-related posts at this and other websites. My SoCal oil circumstances and shifting consistency objectives meant I wanted higher cold and hot weights for a synthetic motorcycle-oriented oil:

Cold: 10W, 15W or 20W?

Hot: -40, -50, or -60?

20W would probably work but seemed too much of a stretch from 5W for a modern Rotax engine so I eliminated it.

I thought a cold-hot delta less than 30 wasted the advantages of modern oils and BajaRon pointed out a delta more than 35 put too much emphasis on additives.

There were many choices for 10W but I thought 15W would work better for my objectives.

Several members liked Motul and other websites' reviews of the 7100 series were uniformly positive, especially since 7100 is designed for wet clutch powertrains with their viscosity-eating gearboxes.

To help with gear-shifting objectives, I wanted to minimize viscosity loss over a 5K oil change interval and there was Motul 7100 15W50 waiting for me with a smile.

[BertRemington]

On my 85K mile 2014 RT-S SE6 I have about 3K miles on the synthetic Motul 7100 15W50. Had some days in the 80s (also a day where I drove on snowy roads) but nothing in the 100s yet plus I want to ride another 1K miles before I make a more complete report.

The quicklook observation is oil pressures are generally 4psi higher (eg 54 rather than 50) than semi-synthetic BRP 5W40 and the synthetic LM/Spectro 5W40. Again the caveat is ambient temperature and engine RPM greatly affect oil pressure. Generally I won't see 54psi at less than 3,500rpm unless the engine is cold where I will see 58psi (the pressure relief setting). Currently idle is where I see the big difference, about 8psi.

Shifting operation is smoother across a wider range of conditions. Because the 1st owner (I'm the 3rd) took long 2-up trips towing a trailer, there's the possibility the clutch wear is outside the TCM trim range. After I fix the air suspension and some other things I'm going to see if the firmware can be updated or adjusted with BUDS for improved shifting operation (maybe I'm running with 2014 firmware?).

BTW I found essentially no difference between BRP and LM/Spectro in oil pressures and shifting operation around the 2-3K mile range (I've changed oil and both filters three times in 8K miles). YMMV.

[BertRemington]

BRP has to offer an engine lubricant that works for winters in Valcourt and summers in Alice Springs -- I don't.

BRP has to offer an engine lubricant meeting global regulations including gas mileage -- I don't.

BRP has to offer an engine lubricant that minimizes point-of-sale retailer inventory -- I don't.

BRP has to offer an engine lubricant with a competitive price point that discourages customers from choosing inappropriate alternatives -- I don't.

Lamonster worked with Spectro to offer the Spyder community a synthetic engine lubricant with BRP's weights -- I too chose a synthetic.

[BertRemington]

It's apparent from the Quicklook that Motul 7100 15W50 is a cobble on my shifting objectives and I need to address the other factors:

(1) clutch plate wear
(2) transmission wear (eg spool valves) outside the TCM's trim range
(3) original TCM firmware for which an update may be available
(4) deterioration in sensor and actuator wiring

I'm putting together a fairly extensive parts list, including tools, and it looks to be about $1K. PMK identified a member with BUDS nearby and I'll be contacting him about a possible firmware update and clutch repair. I'll examine the sensors, which seem conventional (NTC thermistor and 3-wire 5V transducer) and the wiring, which seems sound but it doesn't hurt to verify (BUDS will also do some of this).

The actuators (solenoids) are a concern because the service manual says "Replacing solenoids may require replacing the HCM."

With most of its 77K life apparently in the SouthWest carrying two passengers and towing a trailer, I think the transmission is just worn and needs nothing more than a refresh of wear items to restore shifting consistency.

This story will continue.

[pegasus1300]

Thanks Bert for your report. Please continue to update this report as get more experience with oil/Spyder.

[Paddy4810]

following also

[spyder01]

After reading hundreds of posts about shifting complaints on the semi automatic Spyders and also having been in the transmission rebuilding industry for half my life, I've come to some conclusions.
1. These units are a rudimentary attempt at designing a semi auto trans.They have taken a regular trans and by cleverly modifying the clutch cover have made it able to shift and engage/disengage the clutch.
2. The control system is so basic that it just doesn't have the brains to pull off smooth shifting under varying conditions, like temperature, oil viscosity, load, rpm, etc.
3. Fiddling with some items like, oil, throttle manipulation, shift rpm, etc will sometimes provide relief from clunks or slippy shifts, these are not fixes just temporary bandaids.
4. It seems that BRP is happy enough with the design as is because it hasnt changed in a while and probably won't because of the extra cost involved.
5. I applaud the OP's attempt to make the shifting better with an oil change and it will be interesting to see if he can get consistently better shifts. I personally have gotten used to the quirks of the machine and will continue to focus on the riding. I do appreciate anyone who tries to make their bike perform better and I like to do that myself.

[bikerbillone]

Bert, are you using Motul synthetic? Assume you are, but you didn't specify.

[troop]

Bert, are you using Motul synthetic? Assume you are, but you didn't specify.

https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/products/7100-4t-15w50

[pegasus1300]

Bert, it has been now over a month since you last updated your research, is there anything new to add yet?

[BertRemington]

I've been wasting my life away in front of my computer. I've done some research, collected some data and now its time to publish it. And get some time outside -- it's wonderful albeit dry except maybe today.

[Little Blue]

...You have us waiting for the 'Next Chapter'. ....