Gasoline question - will Regular harm the Spyder?

[obiwanbill]

Owner manual pg 53 says prem gas 91 pump posted octane
pg 164 says "recommend" use: Prem 91 and says "minumum": 87 reg.

So if I use Regular is it going to screw up the bike? No offense: looking for some one that knows for sure (like a mechanic), Not other rider's "opinions or preferences" Thank you

[UtahPete]

Owner manual pg 53 says prem gas 91 pump posted octane
pg 164 says "recommend" use: Prem 91 and says "minumum": 87 reg.

So if I use Regular is it going to screw up the bike? No offense: looking for some one that knows for sure (like a mechanic), Not other rider's "opinions or preferences" Thank you

I have the same question.

I know a lot of folks on here swear by the lower octane, saying it hasn't caused any issues for them, but really - how would they know? The higher octane is strictly to prevent knocking and pinging (i.e. premature combustion) which can cause damage over the long term to the combustion chamber parts of high-compression engines.

I'm willing to pay more for high octane fuel for the peace of mind. When it's not available I'll use the 87 (even 86 when that's all there is) but not more than a tank full.

[KnurledNut]

We fortunate to have many petroleum and powersports engineers on this forum. I'm sure they will provide a technical answer.

Personally, I use ethanol-free unleaded.

[Drwerner]

I use the highest octane ethanol-free fuel I can find. Generally, 90 or 91 octane. I saw an excellent demo on the harmful impacts of ethanol - E10, or gasoline with up to 10% ethanol is not an ideal fuel for motorcycles or small engine machines. Ethanol fuel has a shorter shelf life, leads to higher carbon buildup, gums up carburetors, and eats away at rubber parts faster than ethanol-free fuel. Ethanol is not near as bad for fuel-injected vehicles as it is for carbureted vehicles however - the high-pressure fuel injection system pushes out any clogs that might start to build up in the injectors. That said, ethanol can set up if left for longer periods of time to a gel like substance. Studies have shown that, compared to ethanol free fuel, ethanol fuel provides for worse gas mileage (by a couple of percent). Last, Ethanol LOVES water! Gasoline isn’t water soluble, but ethanol is. So not only can ethanol pick up water from the air, it can pick up other contaminants as well. Once the alcohol in gasoline has picked up enough water (and contaminants) you can get phase separation. Bad for vehicles that are stored or not used as frequently. So there is my rant on ethanol. Higher compression engines can experience "knocking" easier than lower compression vehicles. And knocking is bad. I know running higher octane than needed is just a waste of money - but the cost of preignition damage could be considerable - so is higher octane just cheap insurance? I'm still interested in the octane discussion

[SportsterDoc]

High octane fuel burns slower to avoid pinging, which may reduce MPG.
However, if lower octane triggers the knock sensor, resulting in less timing advance, fuel economy would likely be less.
Without a knock sensor, best to use the higher octane.
With a knock sensor, there is the option of trying both to compare performance and fuel economy.
At higher elevations, less octane is required.

[obiwanbill]

So if I used gas with 10% ethenol, water could collect in the tank. For years, I've dumped in a bottle of STP gas treatment, like once a month for keeping engine cleaner and it removes water like fuel line freeze up.

So I should try running a tank of unleaded regular (seems every station uses 10% ethenol) and listen for engine knocking. If knocking, move up to midrange (if available) or Premium if I have to.

The way gas prices are going, I may have to start walking

[ARtraveler]

The OP has stated the following:

Not other rider's "opinions or preferences" Thank you. He wants mechanics and experts to answer this one.

Let's keep the comments to what the OP wants.

Many chances to get into a flaming gas war here. I am not going to reply to the question.

I just know what I do and it works for me. Been a Spyder owner since they came out (2008), and owned a total of seven. Almost 200,000 Spyder miles. What I do works for me. Have not had a spyder blow up or disintegrate, or need major engine repairs. I am going to keep on doing what I do. PS. I don't follow the manual(s).

[BertRemington]

In the Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) Subsection:

KNOCK SENSOR (KS)

This [1330cc] engine is equipped with one knock sensor (KS1) that measures the amount of noise generated by the engine.

If an abnormally high amount of noise is measured, the ECM perceives this as a KNOCK condition and adjusts ignition timing by retarding it to correct the situation.

If, with the engine running under load above 4000 RPM, the ECM receives no knock sensor signal,
or receives a knock sensor signal representing an engine noise level below a calibrated threshold, it perceives this as a knock sensor fault and sets a knock sensor fault code [P0327, P0328, P032A, P1327, P1328].

[Jambo Creek]

So if I used gas with 10% ethenol, water could collect in the tank. For years, I've dumped in a bottle of STP gas treatment, like once a month for keeping engine cleaner and it removes water like fuel line freeze up.

So I should try running a tank of unleaded regular (seems every station uses 10% ethenol) and listen for engine knocking. If knocking, move up to midrange (if available) or Premium if I have to.

The way gas prices are going, I may have to start walking

I’m riding 8,000 - 12,000 miles a year in Wisconsin, mostly two up. I started on a 2009 RT, which morphed into a 2017 F-3, which was replaced in 2020 by an RTL. NONE of those bikes ever had anything in the tank but regular gasoline, and none of them had any performance problems at all with it. When the F-3 had the plugs changed at 30,000 miles, they looked brand new. The mechanic at the dealership thought it was a waste of money. So is paying for premium gas.

[obiwanbill]

In the Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) Subsection:

That quote is a mouthful for us non-enginners. In plain English, please?

[SportsterDoc]

That quote is a mouthful for us non-enginners. In plain English, please?

Thought I kept it simple in post 5

[UtahPete]

That quote is a mouthful for us non-enginners. In plain English, please?

I think it means the 1330 engine is equipped with a knock sensor to protect the engine from damage by retarding the spark, thereby eliminating the pre-ignition.

In other words, it should be safe to use 97 octane if that's what you want to do, but you may experience a loss of performance.

[BertRemington]

The Rotax 1330cc engine was designed by a proven, experienced team and the supporting electronics were sourced from similar teams (primarily Bosch). There is an extensive suite of sensors and actuators governing powertrain operations that are monitored at Key-On, Engine-Start, Engine-Running Open Loop (cold or WOT), and Engine-Running Closed Loop (most of the time). Your Spyder is always watching you.

BRP chose this expensive approach so they could offer a safe 3-wheel experience for a wide range of rider driving skills and motion-range abilities.

IMO the choice of throttle-by-wire highlights the guiding design criteria that ensure both safe engine operation and safe rider operation.

A knock sensor is an acoustically-tuned device (think sonar transducer) mechanically coupled to the engine that provides a complex electrical signal the engine control unit interprets as proper or improper (eg, pre-ignition) combustion. Knock sensors have been part of engine management from the early fuel injection days. They are mature technology.

Standing by for more questions.

[bikerchris1270]

Owner manual pg 53 says prem gas 91 pump posted octane
pg 164 says "recommend" use: Prem 91 and says "minumum": 87 reg.

So if I use Regular is it going to screw up the bike? No offense: looking for some one that knows for sure (like a mechanic), Not other rider's "opinions or preferences" Thank you

Follow the manufacturer’s recommendations……….
Premium fuel is usually a TOP Tier 1 fuel….meaning it has the fuel additives to keep injectors clean, intake valves cleaner.
87 octane…….not always.
Also, premium has a lower fuel vapor pressure,(meaning less fuel vaporizes at 100degrees) which helps with hot soak restarts.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Here's is my take on the question.

I've used regular exclusively now for 4 or 5 years and have not experienced any issues.

If there is knocking you probably won't hear it, but the sensor will detect it and adjust the engine as needed.

The engine is undoubtedly designed and manufactured so smoothly inside the combustion chamber there are no hot spots to ignite the air/fuel mixture prematurely. Compression, in and of itself, does not cause premature ignition. The engine burns the fuel so efficiently there have been no reports on here of carbon buildup causing pre-ignition.

To date no one has reported seeing the internals of an engine that was run primarily on regular. So even though none of us has experienced engine damage from regular, neither can any of us verify by our own observation what, if any, effect regular has had on the engine internals.

Anecdotal evidence shows there is no problem. Scientific evidence does not exist in the hands of owners, and Rotax isn't talking.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

In other words, it should be safe to use 97 octane if that's what you want to do, but you may experience a loss of performance.

Remember my post of a few years ago showing my mpg for the summer, and the poll asking members to guess when I used regular and premium? My mpg was good enough not one member guessed the correct option that I had run regular exclusively all summer.

[Peter Aawen]

.....

Anecdotal evidence shows there is no problem. Scientific evidence does not exist in the hands of owners, and Rotax isn't talking.

Well, Rotax actually IS talking!

For the US, they "recommend" Prem 91 and specify a "minumum" of 87 Reg.


Just Sayin'

[BertRemington]

Bill -- while gasoline is a fraction (by weight) of the fuel our engines combust, it is the fraction that we can exercise the most quality and price control over. Because our Rotax engines essentially protect themselves, your choice should be guided by the same methods used for other consumables (eg, lettuce, beer, toilet paper, etc). They are, in no particular order:

1. Trustworthiness of the supplier
2. Price you are willing or able to pay
3. Rate of consumption including vehicle storage conditions (gasoline gets old just like lettuce does) which may call for additives
4. Driving conditions (vehicle gross weight, speed, terrain, temperature/humidity)

Generally #4 is the most concern for octane selection. If you are running your Spyder with heavy loads (2-up, trailer); above posted speeds; repeated hills and mountains; and in high temperatures with low humidity then a higher octane gasoline should be used.

And that's as far as I'm going to walk on this plank.

[Little Blue]

Use what they say in the operating manual. Mine said 91 or better. I use 93.

Your Spyder so you can decide. Or go with the manufacturer fuel recommended. ....

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Well, Rotax actually IS talking!

For the US, they "recommend" Prem 91 and specify a "minumum" of 87 Reg.


Just Sayin'

What I meant is that Rotax is not saying what can or will actually happen in the engine if regular is used all the time. I don't think they have ever publicized the rational behind recommending premium but giving a nod to regular. Also, they have never said, that I know of, what percentage of fuel used in a Rotax can be regular without adverse effects. I'd like to think they have good rationale for recommending premium, but they sure haven't told us what it is. Maybe regular would be OK but if they were to say so they would probably be lambasted by the entire gasoline engine industry, and have no desire to deal with that. Maybe the reason they haven't shared their rationale is their comments would just stir up a greater word war!

BTW, I have always run regular in my cars for which premium was recommended. Nary a problem in over 35 years!

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I think it means the 1330 engine is equipped with a knock sensor to protect the engine from damage by retarding the spark, thereby eliminating the pre-ignition.

In other words, it should be safe to use 97 octane if that's what you want to do, but you may experience a loss of performance.

" 97 octane " ...??????? .....typo ???? ................Mike

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Bill -- while gasoline is a fraction (by weight) of the fuel our engines combust, it is the fraction that we can exercise the most quality and price control over. Because our Rotax engines essentially protect themselves, your choice should be guided by the same methods used for other consumables (eg, lettuce, beer, toilet paper, etc). They are, in no particular order:

1. Trustworthiness of the supplier
2. Price you are willing or able to pay
3. Rate of consumption including vehicle storage conditions (gasoline gets old just like lettuce does) which may call for additives
4. Driving conditions (vehicle gross weight, speed, terrain, temperature/humidity)

Generally #4 is the most concern for octane selection. If you are running your Spyder with heavy loads (2-up, trailer); above posted speeds; repeated hills and mountains; and in high temperatures with low humidity then a higher octane gasoline should be used.

And that's as far as I'm going to walk on this plank.

... #4.- My best friend , a master mechanic, was asked by me about using reg. or premium gas ..... He tested my 14RT, and said - - use regular , UNLESS you are in the mountains, with long steep up-hills, and are towing a loaded trailer and a passenger that is obese, .... then use premium ......PERIOD ..... good luck .... Mike

[VegasDan]

I'm a bottom line type guy.
Premium fuel generally runs about 10 cents a gallon over midgrade and 15 - 20 over the base.

Lets say the Spyder gets 30 miles per gallon.
Over 100,000 miles - you will burn 3333 1/3 gallons of fuel.
Premium will cost you an additional $333 to $666 over that 100k miles. Or for most riders a savings of a whole $25 to $40 a year. So on your $30,000 bike - you decide.
Ill be running premium in mine.

[Piratezz]

The Rotax is a very sophisticated machine, but is also designed to drive all over the world, even in places where premium fuels don't even exist, I am all for using premium fuel, but it won't harm the machine, if you use regular fuel.

If you are a spirited driver, you will notice the difference between fuels, but it will show at the top end, of perfomance, so when cruising, use regular, when loading the motor (2up/ hills/ elevation,) a premium fuel is better.

But again, this is all personal preference, I always use premium fuels, for peace of mind, and I am a spirited driver..

[PMK]

Always best to follow your manufacturers approved data.