Foot brake - comments sought from taller Ryders

[GOMWA]

Greetings from Australia.

I'm in my early 70s and am thinking of moving from 2 wheels to an RT Limited.

I've been trawling this forum for some time and believe I'm reasonably familiar with the pluses and minuses of these machines.

Based on necessarily limited ride time, I'm happy with the general ergonomics of the bike. However, I'm quite concerned about being able to smoothly and comfortably operate the foot brake, particularly frequently (e.g. in the twisties).

I'm roughly 200cm tall (6'6") with proportionally longish legs. I have no trouble braking in a roomy car, but the more upright position of my lower right leg on the RT makes smooth braking a lot more difficult for me. I'm also concerned about possible interference from the handle bar when turning right.

I've considered an aftermarket hand brake. However, I'm told that you need a very powerful hand grip to get near the effectiveness of the foot brake. So, that might not be a good investment.

I realise that over time I'm could become comfortable with operating the brake, but then I might not. I would appreciate comments from similarly tallish Ryders as to their experiences.

[Bfromla]

Plenty of Test rides & focus on figure 8’s. Other additional options: maybe can swap handle bars, replace seat to somewhere further back maybe some combination or both. Have you tried the F3 U-fit system?

[Woodaddict]

pre 2020 model year, is a mostly lift foot and brake. if you were to buy a 2020 - 2022, its more of rest your heel and push brake. its been redesigned slightly. you have 2 Ozzie's down yonder that can help you. one is a moderator, other is about 6'6" like you. both named Pete

[spyder01]

I’m 6’2 and I’ve never liked the foot brake but have gotten used to it and feel very comfortable. I am still thinking about that handbrake as a great add on.

[wmjweber45]

The F3L has a more cruiser style seating position which may be more to your liking.

[Peter Aawen]

........

I realise that over time I'm could become comfortable with operating the brake, but then I might not. I would appreciate comments from similarly tallish Ryders as to their experiences.

Hi GOMWA, welcome to the Forum & posting - from another Ozzie SpyderLover!

I reckon you should see if you can get a ryde on one of these things, or at least sit on one at a dealer or some other Spyder gathering, cos nothing we can say or tell you will really make up for trying it out yourself. Still, Peteoz here on the Forum is a bigger guy who might be able to share his experiences (And now for a Shameless plug - there is an Ozzie SpyderRyders Forum that might be able to help you get in contact with more Spyder Ryders in your part of Oz [QLD??] - check out www.ozspyderryders.com )

All that said, despite the fact that I'm a few inches shorter than you overall, my knees & lower legs are longer'n most, I still find that I 'anchor' my lower body to the RT in much the same way that I did on a 2 wheeled motorcy cycle; and that once I got used to the differences of the Spyder, operating the brake pedal with my right foot has not ever been an issue in the twisties or anywhere else, nor have there been any circumstances where my leg has impinged upon any handlebar movement, just so long as my feet are still on the foot plates &/or pegs & pedals. And in common with all the 2019 & earlier RT's (I don't know about the 2020+ models, as they've had some changes) my 2013 RT has an 'Emergency Braking Drop-away' feature on the right (brake) footplate - so that if I stomp on the pedal HARD enough to really bring the VSS, ABS, & EBD into play - or in other words, in an all out braking emergency, the toe of the footplate drops down further (without hitting the ground! ) allowing more pedal movement and enhancing the phenomenal braking abilities of the machine!!

I can tell you from experience both on the test track (where I often get paid to do things others might consider risky or even silly! ) and on public roads (where I try to be less silly! ) that once all Spyder models went to the Brembo Brakes (which was in 2013 ) there's really not much out there that'll out-brake a competently ridden Spyder!! Nor is there too much that'll out-run them on iffy cornering surfaces &/or thru the tighter stuff with short straights either, once you learn how to move your upper body around to really take advantage of their sure-footed traction.... . it's really only once the corners open up & the straights start to get longer that the dirty great wall of air the Spyders hafta push outta the way comes into play & lets the 'faster' bikes & cars catch up!

So really, it all boils down to just sitting on the various Spyder models & giving them a go to see whichnsuits you best - they are phenomenal machines with a lot of really smart engineering & safety systems built in that for the main part, work exceptionally well at keeping you comfortable & safe.... altho admittedly, there are a few places where the engineers really didn't think things thru properly, or where BRP cheaped out (in addition to the bloody crapenda Kenda tires! ) so that the execution of what should've been a wonderful feature has instead ended up as a poorly executed embuggerance (think ACS!) . But despite those few short comings, I'm still having so much fun that there's no way I'm gonna give mine up!

Cheers And have a Merry Christmas too!

[Peteoz]

Hey Gomwa……welcome…I’m 6’7” (although I discovered yesterday, at 70, that I am now only 6’6.5”). I have a ‘21RT, and have been looking to solve the brake position issue for some time. The F3 limited is a better solution for taller riders due to the adjustable foot/bar positions and the ability to add highway pegs (I had one previously), but I love the electric screen, led lighting and longer and more heavy duty shock travel of the new RT.

I have tried inverting Lamonster’s floorboard raisers…….doesn’t work due to brake rod interference…and have tried every trick I can think of. There is only one way (actually there is a second which I mention below and you have touched on ) that you can get more legroom to operate the brake, and that is to modify the seat. Even then, places like Russell Daylong can only give you an extra inch (or maybe two) of height, but can not move you back due to the hinged, two piece design of the new RT seat. I will be sourcing a 2nd hand seat in the US in the new year and getting Russell to do that. That’s how highly I rate the new RT-L. I also find that due to the ankle angle for long legs (37” inleg), it is impossible to keep your heel on the board while lifting the ball of your foot to cover the brake pedal when approaching say, intersections, meaning you have to hover your whole foot above the brake, which makes gentle pressure impossible. I have fastened a block of wood to the inside of my floorboard, and I can rest my heel on that when approaching an intersection which works well, but certainly isn’t ideal.

I have considered the “hand” brake, but have not pursued it due to cost. There is no question in my mind that it would address the issues however. I may have to investigate that further and “hang the cost”

Another issue is that you can not use highway pegs, as you will find your toes hanging over the front of the board anyway, and adding pegs simply means you are raising your foot higher, actually giving you LESS room. I have bodgied up a solution that works for me, where I have fastened a couple of spare brackets under the boards so I can rest my feet lower on long trips. I’ll post some pics.

I have also added Helibars, which are an expensive option, but allow you to ensure you have your hands exactly where you want them as you can adjust height, wrist angle, control angle etc etc. you can see them in the last photo.

Sorry I can’t give you a solution. I have found I have adjusted to the foot position on the boards, but the brake position is another matter….you can’t simply “clock” the brake pedal to a lower position as BRP have cunningly altered the sprocket to prevent clocking……bastards If foot position is critical for you, you need to look seriously at an F3-L.

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Regards,
Pete

[Bunson]

pre 2020 model year, is a mostly lift foot and brake. if you were to buy a 2020 - 2022, its more of rest your heel and push brake. its been redesigned slightly. you have 2 Ozzie's down yonder that can help you. one is a moderator, other is about 6'6" like you. both named Pete

I had started another thread that was really about the same issue. It dealt with trail braking into left turns. Are the 20-22 parts retrofittable to the earlier RT's? Does anyone know which parts are different?

[Peteoz]

I had started another thread that was really about the same issue. It dealt with trail braking into left turns. Are the 20-22 parts retrofittable to the earlier RT's? Does anyone know which parts are different?

Bunson, sorry, but brake trailing into left turns and compatibility of previous model parts really aren’t “about the same issue” as how someone with long legs can best fit on a an RT-L. I would hate to see this thread hijacked

Pete

[Peteoz]

Just to confirm, GOMWA, are you looking at a 20+ RT, or an earlier model…….as Woodaddict mentioned above, the style changed considerably in 2020.

Pete

[Bunson]

Bunson, sorry, but brake trailing into left turns and compatibility of previous model parts really aren’t “about the same issue” as how someone with long legs can best fit on a an RT-L. I would hate to see this thread hijacked

Pete

I guess I'm seeing it as the same problem weather a person as long legs or not. The rider must lift his leg to activate the brake. At that point it becomes difficult to modulate the brake. It doesn't seem to make much difference if it's a situation where the size of the foot is short making it awkward to rest the heal of the foot and work the brake with the ball of the foot. Tall riders seem to have similar issues. I guess it's the lifting straight up and then coming straight down part. In a car your feet are more out in front of you.
Woodaddict mentioned that the 2020 and newer bikes have a different layout and I was curious if the parts are interchangeable. It seems that a lower and/or a little more forward brake pedal would help both situations.

[GOMWA]

Hi Peter. I'm looking at a 20+ model, same as yours. I doubt I'd fit on the earlier model. You've confirmed my suspicions about the foot brake for taller people. I'm confident I could learn to cope with it like you have, but it would detract from the enjoyment of riding. I agree that a hand brake is the solution. While not as effective as the footbrake, it should be more than sufficient for all but emergencies (where you'd just stomp on the foot brake). My dealer has fitted a handbrake to the current model for another customer. Cost was about 3,000 Aussie dollars. Probably more now because of the Covid. I think the expense is justified. I'm going to plead my case to Santa (aka the 'wife').

[Bunson]

This handbrake, is it a dealer (BRP) option or aftermarket?

[ARtraveler]

We have two F3's. Both have an added wide brake pedal. This makes the pedal easier to hit when needed.

A few miles and your muscle memory will always take you to the brake pedal for a quick, safe, stop.

[CopperSpyder]

This handbrake, is it a dealer (BRP) option or aftermarket?

The only hand brake I know of is after market and only one MFG makes the kit that I know of. https://isciride.com/products/hand-brake-system/

[Peteoz]

We have two F3's. Both have an added wide brake pedal. This makes the pedal easier to hit when needed.
A few miles and your muscle memory will always take you to the brake pedal for a quick, safe, stop.

Yes, but 6’6” makes all the difference, as it also means a wider foot, AR. My size 15 EW boot was up alongside the brake pedal on my F3, and the wider pedal forced my foot off the board. It’s the same with the new RT. Quick heavy stops are no issue, but it’s covering the brake pedal as you approach intersections, roundabouts, curves etc etc, where you need your heel on the board and the ball of your foot above the brake that causes the issues. My temporary wood block solution doesn’t work very well where you have a curvy road as you have to keep your heel on the wood block, limiting cornering ability.

Pete

[Peteoz]

Hi Peter. I'm looking at a 20+ model, same as yours. I doubt I'd fit on the earlier model. You've confirmed my suspicions about the foot brake for taller people. I'm confident I could learn to cope with it like you have, but it would detract from the enjoyment of riding. I agree that a hand brake is the solution. While not as effective as the footbrake, it should be more than sufficient for all but emergencies (where you'd just stomp on the foot brake). My dealer has fitted a handbrake to the current model for another customer. Cost was about 3,000 Aussie dollars. Probably more now because of the Covid. I think the expense is justified. I'm going to plead my case to Santa (aka the 'wife').

Yes, I had no chance of operating the brake on the earlier models, but I know of a 6’8” American who had one…..maybe he only had 2’ long legs

I agree that the only real solution is to install the ISCI brake to use to cover preparing for intersections, curves etc. As I mentioned to AR above, the block solution has its failings on winding roads, and I am not going to use it long term.

The plus of the new RT is that it handles so well that you don’t “have” to install aftermarket shocks all round, as is nearly mandatory for the F3 for bigger riders. That $2k+ can go toward your ISCI. I have installed the aftermarket stabiliser bar from RabbitWorks in Aus as I prefer a flatter cornering experience (and have replaced the rear shock…..but not for performance issues……it squeaked when delivered, I couldn’t get to the dealer due to Covid and he didn’t have a spare, so I bought an Ikon and replaced it myself….problem solved).

Please keep us updated. I don’t believe I will have any option than to get the ISCI eventually.

Pete

[Peteoz]

I guess I'm seeing it as the same problem weather a person as long legs or not. The rider must lift his leg to activate the brake. At that point it becomes difficult to modulate the brake. It doesn't seem to make much difference if it's a situation where the size of the foot is short making it awkward to rest the heal of the foot and work the brake with the ball of the foot. Tall riders seem to have similar issues. I guess it's the lifting straight up and then coming straight down part. In a car your feet are more out in front of you.
Woodaddict mentioned that the 2020 and newer bikes have a different layout and I was curious if the parts are interchangeable. It seems that a lower and/or a little more forward brake pedal would help both situations.

Ahhhhhh. Gotcha, Bunson.

Shorter riders tend to have their heel further behind the brake pedal, so they can cover the pedal with the ball of their foot. Very tall riders have their heel right alongside the brake pedal, and usually flat on the board, which makes it even more difficult to cover. I have looked at options to move the pedal down and forward, but until someone makes a new angled brake arm, with the “Patented” unevenly spaced sprocket that the RT has, there’s nothing around…….and I don’t know that the market would make that new arm viable (or safe).

Pete

[GOMWA]

I'm pretty well 100% with Peteoz on the benefits of the RT Limited over the F3 and the benefit of a handbrake. And it's not just because he's a fellow Aussie. Hell - I would even support a Kiwi saying the same things.

That is not to denigrate the F3 in any way. An RT with a handbrake is simply more suitable to me. A pity about the extra expense, but then many spend a lot more on personalising their rydes. Each to their own priorities.

I've been tempted to ramble on about the benefits of handbrakes for vehicles with handle bars, but I gather that issue has been discussed
before. I don't think it's just an issue of convenience. I think there is also a potential safety issue. I simply can't understand BRP's thinking on it. End of short rant.

Many thanks to Peter for explaining the issue so well and thanks to the rest of you for your comments - a very gratifying response to my first post.

[Mosess01]

Hello Gomwa i am also the same height as you and i am on a 21 Rtl there is enough room to be comfortible and to opperate the brakes just fine.

[Peteoz]

Hello Gomwa i am also the same height as you and i am on a 21 Rtl there is enough room to be comfortible and to opperate the brakes just fine.

Great to hear, Mosess……but we are all different, with different length inlegs and ankle flexibility, and it simply doesn’t work for either GOMWA or myself.

Pete

[RazzleH]

Ryding a 2020 F3Ltd at the moment. Getting used to not having a front break handle took me quite some months. My bod is a bit over 6' so the brake pedal is at its furthest setting. I've kept away from a wider pedal because occasionally my foot catches the the side/under the standard pedal. Breaking in the twisties stopped being an issue when I realised that being in the right gear and letting the lovely 3 cyl run up over 5k revs from time to time works very well. Enjoying every minute. Happy new year.

[ChapMikeM25]

I am only 5'9, but have 34" inseam. Waited until the 2020 models before purchasing because the earlier one seemed cramped. I also invested in a set of HeliBars due to some serious shoulder problems. I have a RT LTD which works for me a friend who is 6'3" has a 2020 F3 LTD it has more leg room we both LOVE the HeliBars. Hope this helps

[mecsw500]

I've found for a lot of the twisties my 21 RT Limited has a significant amount of engine braking, so despite my height I don't need to brake as often as one would think. Doing switch backs of course,brakes are needed, for most twisty sets of roads I just get a nice flow going and it seems to be fine. I found that I have to be careful that I really close the throttle all the way as it has more travel than you think.

Anyway, it would be nice to lower the brake pedal and move it forward a bit, but there you go.

[Peteoz]

Anyway, it would be nice to lower the brake pedal and move it forward a bit, but there you go.

Yep. Yep, yep, mecsw. That is the ultimate goal of many of us taller riders. I haven’t given up the hunt for a solution yet, but I am getting close (to giving up). I may just HAVE to outlay for the ISCI handbrake.

Pete