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  1. #1
    Registered Users eagle's Avatar
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    Default 2020 RTL brake issue - it's eating rotors! HELP?

    2020 RT - at 9000 miles had new rotors and pads installed under warranty. I now have 21000 miles on the Spyder and warranty is putting in another set of new rotors. What happens is, after a few thousand miles the front fenders shake violently from front to back - at let's say 40mph, any moderate brake pressure and it seems the fenders may break off. The dealer has worked with BRP warranty division for 2 months and all they came up with was fitting new rotors again. What is the real problem here? I have ridden well over 200,000 miles on 5 different Spyders and had nothing like this! HELP?!
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 11-17-2021 at 09:46 PM. Reason: Caps, spaces, & title clarification... ;-)

  2. #2
    Very Active Member JayBros's Avatar
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    Overtorqued lug nuts and/or warped hubs? Since it's happened more than once I'd vote for the latter. If the latter it should be easily verified with a dial indicator.
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    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    Time to trade it in on yet another one. BRP loves repeat customers like you - it means that don't have to solve your promlems.
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    I would guess you have a hub issue that the disc mounts onto, either bent or damaged. Also, a misaligned brake calliper will do the same. Check to see if your old pads are worn on a taper, that's normally a give away the calliper is not aligned. Or maybe you're accidentaly holding the brake on causing excess heat build up and disc warpage? Or if the brake master push rod distance is not right the brakes can be applied even when not being used, causing brake shudder due to warpage. With BUDS they can see if there's a pressure in the system under rest - during riding, it would require BUDS being connected and being taken on the test ride.
    Good Luck
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 12-04-2021 at 05:39 PM. Reason: Caps & spaces... ;-)

  5. #5
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    Have them contact BRP for a solution.

  6. #6
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trikermutha View Post
    Have them contact BRP for a solution.
    According to his original post, BRP has been involved for 2 months with no resolution other than replace the brake discs again.

  7. #7
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, many times these odd problems come down to a money thing.
    The tech likely works on flat rate commission, and since troubleshooting is not a listed flat rate, the tech has no means to get paid for work accomplished.
    The shop itself could offer to sort it out on a time and materials basis. You as the owner would be liable for all costs at least initially. Once the issue is resolved, a warranty claim could be submitted and possibly approved by BRP. This would allow you to be reimbursed. This entire process can be complicated from a bookkeeping standpoint.

    At this point, my suggestion is to place a new rotor, that was supplied under warranty, onto the wheel studs without a front wheel. Agreeing with others, check the runout of the new brake disc. Do this on both sides. Ideally the runout is 0.0mm, or very close to that. If the runout is acceptable, the mechanical rotating parts are true and good.

    As others mentioned, possibly the brake is not releasing, possibly the system is trapping pressure.

    Could even be as simple as the brake system needs to be flushed and bled.

    Regardless, it is a very simple system and typically a very simple problem to troubleshoot.

  8. #8
    Very Active Member KX5062's Avatar
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    From your description it could be a problem with the anti-lock module. Anti-lock brakes work by controlling the flow of brake fluid to the calipers creating essentially an on-off flow. When the anti-lock module actives under hard braking it creates a shuddering sensation like you're describing. However, at an improper time and application it could also be creating a situation whereby it's keeping slight pressure on the calipers making wear prematurely.

    Just a thought.
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  9. #9
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    You can do some trouble-shooting of your own, relatively easily. But I agree, something is definitely up.

    First, you can check for dragging brakes. Simply ride at 45 mph or better for a mile or so without applying the brakes. Then pull over in a safe place applying the brakes as little as possible. Use gears to slow down and only apply the brakes, if necessary, to come to a complete stop. Then use an infra-red temperature gun, if you have one. Or, I just use the back of my hand, holding it near, but not touching the rotor. The back of your hand is much more temperature sensitive than your palm or fingers. If the rotors are hot (they shouldn't be, but that's why we are checking) they can burn you.

    If you do not feel any real heat at the back of your hand, quickly touch the rotor with a finger. If it is hot, you will be able to tell without doing any damage. The rotor should be cool to the touch. Repeat for each rotor. All should be cool. If one or more are too hot to touch, you have a dragging caliper and this can certainly create the issue you are having.

    It would be good to know how long after the new rotors are mounted that you start having this issue. I find it unlikely that you have 2 bad hubs. So if both rotors are going bad, twice, it sounds more like a heat issue than a mechanical issue. I just don't think it likely you have 2 bad hubs. Or, are they just replacing both rotors as a matter of course? Only one being bad. That doesn't sound likely either. No reason to replace both if only 1 is bad.

    Are they doing a dial indicator run out test to verify that the rotors are warped, as JayBros suggests? Is it both rotors? Or just 1? And do they take a similar reading after installing the new rotors? This might give indication of a bad hub as it should show up in some rotor deflection immediately.

    Typically, if it is a bad hub, the problem will set in fairly quickly. Immediately, in many cases, depending on how bad the hub is. Not saying it isn't a hub issue. Just saying it may be a less likely possibility.

    You don't say how you are riding your Spyder. Your surprise at this issue leads me to believe that you're riding style, loading, areas ridden, etc., have not changed enough to warrant this problem. But it is a different machine. And that may be a contributing factor if it is a heat related issue.

    I will say that if your problem turns out to be heat, and not mechanical, EBC rotors may well be your salvation. I've had owners who have gone through as many as 3 sets of OEM rotors (heat caused warpage) that went to the EBC rotors and never had any more issues. The EBC rotors not only stop better, but are much more warp resistant than the OEM rotors. And, they are less expensive. Pretty much a no-brainer there.

    It will be quite interesting to know what your solution is. I hope you will post it here.
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    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 11-18-2021 at 04:54 PM. Reason: inferred = infra-red ;-)
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    According to his original post, BRP has been involved for 2 months with no resolution other than replace the brake discs again.
    So its time to get BRP and make it right. I would not void the warranty by trying to fix it himself. Since they were already involved bring in a super tech to diagnose it.

  11. #11
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trikermutha View Post
    So its time to get BRP and make it right. I would not void the warranty by trying to fix it himself. Since they were already involved bring in a super tech to diagnose it.
    Based on the original post, it was not stated, but suspect it is both sides. BRP should replace both calipers, both discs, both sets of front brake pads. Flush the brake system and ensure the master cylinder is releasing fluid, even change the master cylinder.

    No need for a super tech, just a tech qualified or experienced in Spyders. All in, it is only a couple hours work and minimal cost in warranty parts. It is the brakes, and if there is a collision or injury, related to stopping or a loss of control, it will be ugly since his issues are documented. But, I do not own the company, do not work for them and at this point, not much else I can offer up.

  12. #12
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    With today's lack of experience you probably would need a super tech to figure it out.
    Let BRP fix it thats the main point .

  13. #13
    Registered Users eagle's Avatar
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    11/23/21 New rotors installed today by dealer. After parking Spyder in workshop, I felt each rotor with fingers. Right side was cold, left side which does the most shaking was quite warm. Borrowed a heat gun, & will check rotors with heat gun next few days & post results. Thinking anti-lock brake system not working properly.
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 11-23-2021 at 06:31 PM. Reason: quit = quite ;-)

  14. #14
    Active Member SpyderGoldwingOwner's Avatar
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    Do you downshift when you ride? If not learn how
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    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpyderGoldwingOwner View Post
    Do you downshift when you ride? If not learn how
    ....I only use my brakes to slow down ....and got 30,000mi. rear pads and over 45,000mi. ( and still adding mi. ) on the front. ..... I have NEVER re-placed any transmissions on any vehicle I have ever owned ..... just sayin ..... good luck ..... Mike

  16. #16
    Active Member cravenfun's Avatar
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    Left caliper could be sticking causing pad drag and warping rotor. I'd suspect a bad caliper first over ABS unit. Caliper issues are more common. Brake hoses are known to collapse internally also holding fluid pressure on release causing pad drag.
    These brakes are no different than a car with disc and ABS brakes, just 3 instead of 4.
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  17. #17
    Active Member mecsw500's Avatar
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    If it happens most at a particular speed, then it might be quite a subtle item that is causing the problem at a particular harmonic.

    I would also make sure that you don't have a slight bend in a wheel rim (out of round or side to side out of true), a significantly out of balance or defective tire, a defective wheel bearing, a defective bushing on the front suspension, or even a front or front back wheel alignment problem. A defective shock might cause it or even a tweaked front suspension component. It could even be that the steering sensor calibration is out with regards to the naturally straight ahead position. Perhaps a caliper piston that is failing to retract for some reason.

    Does the front tire(s) exhibit premature or uneven wear as well, or just the brake rotor? If it isn't a caliper dragging, I would guess something is causing the caliper to shake side to side with respect to the rotor, thereby heating it up and causing it to warp over time?
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  18. #18
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    I'd put money on the shake returning.

    Read here...https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...85#post1558185
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  19. #19
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle View Post
    11/23/21 New rotors installed today by dealer. After parking Spyder in workshop, I felt each rotor with fingers. Right side was cold, left side which does the most shaking was quite warm. Borrowed a heat gun, & will check rotors with heat gun next few days & post results. Thinking anti-lock brake system not working properly.
    Having rotors with different temperatures is not a good sign. It means there is unequal braking or one caliper is hanging up. Either way, it's a problem that won't go away and your new rotors are going to go bad just like the previous ones. I am surprised the dealer does not check the brake system for issues before just throwing new rotors at the problem. Rotors don't just go bad. There is always a reason.
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  20. #20
    Very Active Member FrogmanDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    Having rotors with different temperatures is not a good sign. It means there is unequal braking or one caliper is hanging up. Either way, it's a problem that won't go away and your new rotors are going to go bad just like the previous ones. I am surprised the dealer does not check the brake system for issues before just throwing new rotors at the problem. Rotors don't just go bad. There is always a reason.
    Absolutely agree with this.
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  21. #21
    Active Member mecsw500's Avatar
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    Perhaps if your caliper is binding sufficiently to get the rotor hot enough to warp, just jacking up each side and spinning the corresponding wheel while applying and releasing the brakes might show if the caliper is binding or not releasing. It would have to be a reasonable amount of friction from either the caliper binding or the rotor or hub running out of true to cause enough heat to be able to measure it after a short ride. I think something must be out of true or binding significantly in order to generate enough heat to warp the rotor(s) that quickly?
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