Anyone actually installed Aprilia Engine Kits on 998 V-twin Spyder?

[blackphoenix38]

Has anyone actually installed any engine kits from Aprilia on the 998 motor? It is the same motor and should work. I'm just wondering about tuning for it.

How far can we go by swapping out the current parts with Aprilia parts before the ECU gets upset.

I've done searching on the forums, but there is no real concrete info on if someone has actually done it and how the spyder ran afterwards.

[Peter Aawen]

What Aprilia kits are you considering?

It's probably easier, cheaper, & more cost effective just to get an ECU Upgrade for your Spyder's 998 V-twin - do it right with appropriate (simple ) inlet & exhaust upgrades and you can probably get just as much (or maybe even more??) power & torque out of your Spyder's existing motor as you could by swapping in an Aprilia engine &/or fitting Aprilia kits &/or go faster bits... and likely for a whole lot less $$ outlaid & time off the road too! Certainly worked that way for me!

[blackphoenix38]

easier and cheaper maybe. But the same motor we have makes 143 hp in the Aprilia RSV. I'm looking at the 1060 bore kit right now. Maybe cams too, but I think I really need to talk to someone who works on Aprilia's to really understand what I'm trying to do.

[Peter Aawen]

easier and cheaper maybe. But the same motor we have makes 143 hp in the Aprilia RSV. I'm looking at the 1060 bore kit right now. Maybe cams too, but I think I really need to talk to someone who works on Aprilia's to really understand what I'm trying to do.

As I understand it, the Aprilia 998 V-twins are substantially the same motor as the 998 V-twin in your Spyder (the major differences between the two are found in your gearbox, in order to give your Spyder a reverse gear instead of the Aprilia's 6th gear! ) and if there's already a 998 V-twin Rotax engine made that puts out that much power (or more! ) with substantially the same internals as those in your existing Spyder motor, then an ECU Upgrade can unleash ALL THAT POWER for you far easier than messing about with fitting big bore kits &/or cams etc in an attempt to match or marginally better that number!!


Our Spyder V-twins are significantly de-tuned at the BRP/CanAm factory, and they're also choked juuust a little by the restrictive air intake & exhaust system; so if you free up the air flow in & improve getting the exhaust out, then getting an ECU Upgrade done by someone who really knows what they're doing can give you at least that much power and probably more to boot!

Btw, did I already say that the 998 Rotax V-twins are effectively the same motor regardless of which platform they're in, Spyder or Aprilia?? So IIRC, unless you're looking for power numbers somewhere north of about 165 or so, then YOU'VE ALREADY GOT THAT MOTOR, it's just been de-tuned via BRP's ECU settings & choked by their restrictive inlet & exhaust systems! . Fix those things and you can have the power the Aprilia motor puts out, and a tad more besides! But it is your Spyder, so if you want to go throwing money around & chasing big bore kits & cams etc, go right ahead, but you'll STILL need to do an ECU Upgrade to get those bigger numbers - numbers that you could achieve with JUST the ECU Upgrade and a less restrictive air intake & exhaust system.

[larryd]

Back around 2008/2009 there was another Spyder forum run by a guy named Ken, (I think it was called Evolution Performance or something like that...He did the Aprilia HP kit to his Spyder...Ken was one of those guys that "always thought outside the box"...I don't know where to guide you to for more information...Maybe some of the older members can help???

[PMK]

Not sure if there are still posts here or not. Think the guy might have been DrewNJ or something like that. Have not seen posts from him in years.

Thought he was one of the folks that knew about making a Can Aprillia. Yes, the gearbox is different allowing the Spyder a reverse. And yes, some folks were doing the Aprillia kits worthy of 150 ish HP. Sorry I do not know more, but keep searching.

[BajaRon]

The reason for the 'De-Tuning' on the 998 for the Spyder was not to rob HP. It was to increase Torque. The Spyder weighs about twice what the Aprilia weighs dry. So, high HP and low torque is fine for a 400lb. crotch rocket. But not only does the Spyder weigh more dry, it can, and usually does, get a much higher added loading with passenger and gear. Even in the present configuration, the Spyder is a bit anemic on Torque for uphill starts. And you can easily kill the engine if you let the rev's dip before the clutch engages fully (manual clutch). 160 hp sounds awesome. But if you do this at the expense of torque, you're going to end up with a miserable ride.

I know that Doc did the big bore kit and turbo. That was a fast Spyder. But I think he went with custom rods and pistons. If so, there may be an issue with the Aprilia upgrade. But I can't see why that would be. If you can contact Doc, he would certainly be able to help you.

[blackphoenix38]

Thank you for the insight. I'm just looking at different options, there doesn't seem to really be much advanced stuff out there for these spyders. From what I can tell their kits should drop in fine, but I need to get a hold of a local Aprilia shop and talk to them. See what they think. It's either this or a turbo, which at the end of the day will probably cost about the same when it's all said and done.

[Mikey]

Reliability would be my concern! And how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go!!! Because it is a deep hole.

[BajaRon]

Thank you for the insight. I'm just looking at different options, there doesn't seem to really be much advanced stuff out there for these spyders. From what I can tell their kits should drop in fine, but I need to get a hold of a local Aprilia shop and talk to them. See what they think. It's either this or a turbo, which at the end of the day will probably cost about the same when it's all said and done.

I think I would prefer the bore kit over the turbo for a number of reasons. You really need to see if you could get in touch with Doc. He's the expert.

[wtmjr]

Hi. I am also interested in using a Aprilla ECU. A little background: My wife bought me a 2008 GS SM5 early this spring. The seller lied to her about the condition of the trike (Her boss). Her insurance is keeping me alive. She arranged for her ex to go get it. I was expecting to put some fuel and a battery in it and go, because it was supposed to have been parked in running condition 2 years ago. It actually sat for seven years inhabited by large rodents. Judging by the length and girth of the droppings I suspect a squirrel sized critter. I put Gas and a battery in it; the display came on; but it would not start. It turns out the fuel system was clogged and rusted, and the wiring was chewed to bits all over the trike. I cleaned up the fuel system, lined the tank, removed 5 gal of droppings and nest, and replaced the wiring. I am not in good health, so this took months. Originally it was throwing in excess of 27 codes, it's now down to 3. But still in Limp Home mode. Still sitting up on blocks without any body parts. I have cleaned, tested, recleaned, and retested ad nauseum. I can't find any more problems with the wiring. It runs in Limp Home mode. I read a post from a guy asking for help restoring functionality to the VSS and DPS. He wrote that he has 2000 miles on it as is and it runs great. If anyone knows how to disable the VSS to eliminate the Limp Home mode I would dearly love to hear from you. Alternatively, I was considering the possibility of replacing the ECM with Aprilla parts. Because they can be acquired used much less expensively than Can Am parts used. I have yet to ride this thing and would love to join the fun. Does anyone know how to do either of these things?

[Freddy]

As you're running it on blocks it WILL run in limp mode due to the VSS no movement in front wheel while the rear is driving. Get it mobile and see what results.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Hi. I am also interested in using a Aprilla ECU. A little background: My wife bought me a 2008 GS SM5 early this spring. The seller lied to her about the condition of the trike (Her boss). Her insurance is keeping me alive. She arranged for her ex to go get it. I was expecting to put some fuel and a battery in it and go, because it was supposed to have been parked in running condition 2 years ago. It actually sat for seven years inhabited by large rodents. Judging by the length and girth of the droppings I suspect a squirrel sized critter. I put Gas and a battery in it; the display came on; but it would not start. It turns out the fuel system was clogged and rusted, and the wiring was chewed to bits all over the trike. I cleaned up the fuel system, lined the tank, removed 5 gal of droppings and nest, and replaced the wiring. I am not in good health, so this took months. Originally it was throwing in excess of 27 codes, it's now down to 3. But still in Limp Home mode. Still sitting up on blocks without any body parts. I have cleaned, tested, recleaned, and retested ad nauseum. I can't find any more problems with the wiring. It runs in Limp Home mode. I read a post from a guy asking for help restoring functionality to the VSS and DPS. He wrote that he has 2000 miles on it as is and it runs great. If anyone knows how to disable the VSS to eliminate the Limp Home mode I would dearly love to hear from you. Alternatively, I was considering the possibility of replacing the ECM with Aprilla parts. Because they can be acquired used much less expensively than Can Am parts used. I have yet to ride this thing and would love to join the fun. Does anyone know how to do either of these things?

You DO NOT WANT TO DISABLE VSS ..... MY 14 RT shows " limp home mode " almost every time I drive ( and has been for past 5 mos. ) .... however it runs fine and my gas MPG's are 2 more than noprmal .... how does yours actually run .....Mike

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Has anyone actually installed any engine kits from Aprilia on the 998 motor? It is the same motor and should work. I'm just wondering about tuning for it.

How far can we go by swapping out the current parts with Aprilia parts before the ECU gets upset.

I've done searching on the forums, but there is no real concrete info on if someone has actually done it and how the spyder ran afterwards.

To make your life easier ..... check out Monster Fuel or sister co. Wicked Performance ..... they can give you an honest 25 + HP for around $ 450.00 .....good luck ....Mike

[BajaRon]

As Freddy said. Spinning the rear wheel without the fronts turning will send the computer into a fit. It thinks you are crashing.

If this is all that is wrong. All you need to do is ride it. The codes will clear themselves. It's worth a try.

[Peter Aawen]

wtmjr, I really think you are chasing the wrong things!!


If you've already put in the time, expense, and effort to fix the obvious stuff, then your Spyder should work; if it doesn't, then it's cos something OEM either hasn't been fixed yet or cos the OEM stuff is doing exactly what it was designed to do by stopping you from riding an unsafe machine!!


Besides, no matter what, you don't need (or likely truly even want! ) to disable the entire VSS suite of programs (Stability Control; Traction Control; Electronic Brake Distribution; Anti-Lock Brake System; Dynamic Power Steering; & sensors like Yaw Sensor; Pillion Seat Sensor; Wheel Rotation Speed Sensors; Brake Fluid Level Sensors; et al... ) cos doing that DOES make your machine effectively unrideable on public roads, and bloody dangerously close to unrideable on test tracks too!! Plus, You don't need to REPLACE the ECM with an Aprillia ECM, you really just need to get the Can Am ECM sorted, IF there's anything to sort; or replace it if it's fried!

The OEM EC Unit does a whole lot more than just make the engine run; it takes all the data from the range of sensors that YOUR Spyder has (and a range that an Aprillia does not necessarily have, even if it does have all the engine sensors!) and marries that data into a cohesive whole that should allow all the various systems work together to let your Spyder function safely and reliably; and any other make of bike's ECM WILL NOT DO THAT WITHOUT EXTENSIVE UPGRADES/MODIFICATIONS even if it DOES let the engine run! So replacing the OEM unit with an Aprillia unit might let the engine run, but it's just as likely to create a whole 'nuther set of issues that'll need to be resolved before you can go riding; and it basically turns a relatively minor 'find & correct' the few remaining issues effort into finding and fixing a whole shed-load of major issues, most of which the original ECM is already be addressing correctly!! So I reckon you'd be mad to just throw out all the time, $$, & effort and everything else you've already done to get everything you already have working properly in an effort to fix the last little bits of whatever is needed to get yours going again!

So where to for you from here?? Limp Home mode with possibly a few codes can be caused simply by wheels turning at different speeds (1 wheel lifted for too long), or by running the bike in gear with the rear wheel raised & turning freely while the fronts are sitting still on the ground, and if this is the case, all it takes to get rid of those codes & Limp mode is to gently ride it for a couple of hundred metres with a few gentle turns and the odd bit of gentle braking thrown in! Have you tried that yet? As for the ECU, there's places like Monster or Wick-It over in your part of the world who can look at that for you; have you asked any of them? If they can't or aren't interested in looking at it for a fee, then maybe you could try contacting Jase at ECU Xtreme over here in Oz (rotaxracing@gmail.com - PM me if you want a phone number ) He's been fixing/modding/upgrading Rotax & Can Am ECU's successfully for longer than most people want to remember! Don't just toss out everything you've done already only to start again on a system that you (should) already KNOW doesn't address all the things your current set-up does!

And I'll say this again just for emphasis - you REALLY DON'T want to turn off the VSS suite of programs if you want to ride your Spyder on the road! That VSS suite of programs is what makes your Spyder rideable - turn them all off completely/completely disable the VSS and your Spyder becomes unrideable; and it's extremely unlikely that anyone who has done anything much more than a few donuts or straight-line runs has actually done much more than turn off SOME (& probably just a FEW at that! ) of the myriad of functions & sensors/data the VSS suite looks after! Without the VSS suite of programs functioning to some degree, any Spyder rapidly becomes unrideable, and EXTREMELY unsafe!

[wtmjr]

Hi thanks for the advice and information. I have never taken it out of neutral because it's blocked up under the wheels, both front and rear. So none of the wheels have turned. I'm sorry I didn't think to mention that. I replaced the DPS with a 2013 unit that cleared the Check DPS code it had - $166.00 instead of $ 1495.00 plus shipping and tax. I put a 2009 wiring harness in it used for under $100 used as opposed to $500.00 for a used 2008 harness. Both of these were identical to the original except for the plastic cover over the DPS motor. I downloaded a shop manual and an owner's manual. I changed the oil and filter and air filter and cleaned the plugs. I also put a seat cover on it. Next month I will buy new plugs. I have just today begun reinstalling the body panels. So far, I have reinstalled the two panels underneath the trike, the two screens, and the air cleaner box. Because winter is just around the corner, and I am at my wits end tracing the issues causing the last 3 codes. The last three codes are C0040 (Cleaned and lubricated the brake switch) this seems to have cleared this code. The next codes are U0100 and C0051. So, I think that's about it.

[wtmjr]

Oh, I should mention that I am not crazy about just up and replacing the ECU because I can't tell where the problem actually is. My ECU could be fine, but I can get an Aprilla ECU for $36.00, but of course that is just one piece of all the necessary hardware for it to work. I am just examining solutions to fix my trike because admittedly we are not prosperous. I can't afford B.U.D.S. or a dealership. Also, even if we came up with the money for a dealership to look at it, I can't get it there (No trailer or hitch). I really need to find a way to get it out of limp home mode. Then it's possible that I could ride it next year to the dealership in Albuquerque (about a hundred miles) if needed. You know I just feel stuck.

[Peter Aawen]

..... The last three codes are C0040 (Cleaned and lubricated the brake switch) this seems to have cleared this code. The next codes are U0100 and C0051. So, I think that's about it.

Have you done the Brake Pedal - Pressure Switch Reset?? It's not normally associated with that C0040 brake code, but usually C1282... However, given everything else that's occurred, it shouldn't hurt, and who knows... Off the top of my head, the reset process for your GS goes something like this:

• Turn the key on & pump the brake pedal a couple times until it's firm;
• Turn the key off for a few seconds;
• Turn the key on;
• Wait until the dash fully boots up;
• Stand on the brake pedal;
• Turn the key off & Wait a full 30 seconds;
• Release the brake pedal.

If I've remembered that all correctly, then the Brake fault should be gone, at least for now (if it isn't already, & doesn't recur!) My forgettory sometimes works o/time these days but I'm sure that if I've missed something or got it wrong then someone will correct me.

Moving on...

U0100
Module: * Comms

• Lost CAN-BUS comms.
• Damaged circuit wires or CAN-BUS module (IIRC that's all in the dash module itself!)
• Check for (TCM) or ECM fault.
• Go to BUDS
• -
• Circuit wires may have become heated, pinched, broken, or chewed. All pertinent wires & connectors should be carefully inspected for damage & good connections.

C0051
Module: DPS

• SAS (Steering Angle Sensor) adaptive fault.
• Wrong steering angle sensor or alignment or improper initialisation.
• Go to BUDS

Have you initialised/reset the new Steering Angle Sensor that came with your replacement DPS? If not, that could be at least part of your ongoing problem with both of these codes - the (old) ECM isn't talking to the (new/replacement) DPS &/or Steering Angle Sensor because it doesn't know where it is & the CAN-BUS can't find it...

Good Luck!

Ps: If that Limp Home Mode was present when you picked up the Spyder because someone else had run the thing with the rear wheel raised before you even saw it, then there's a good chance that it won't be cancelled until you DO actually run it with all three wheels turning at the same time & speed! So if the codes remaining aren't due to anything outlined above, there's a good chance that they could juuust be a hang-over from a previous owner

That said, there's also varying degrees of 'Limp Home Mode' - as others have also already mentioned, even if you've got a code or two, it might be that the particular application of 'Limp Home Mode' that you've got only restricts you from using Wide Open Throttle; or maybe just limits you to less than 55 mph; or maybe it does really leave you with a barely running Spyder that'll only do 25mph in order to get you to the nearest place of repair.... You won't really know until you try to ride it - preferably somewhere quiet and not at freeway speeds or thru the twisties, but you might want to see if it'll gently and carefully do a couple of hundred metres on a quiet street. It's probably worth a shot tho; and who knows, like some of those others who have posted already, you might juuust find out that you're able to ride it more than you think.

[wtmjr]

Thank you all. I have not initialized in the steering position sensor because my understanding is that requires BUDS. I hate to think I need to check the connections again but if that's what it takes, I guess that's what I will do. I was not aware that there are various levels of limp home mode. Mine will spit, sputter, and backfire when it hits about 3800 RPM... I don't know what that translates into MPH. It seems to me that it's cutting the spark to limit the RPMs. Thanks for the starting point. Tomorrow I will check and clean the connections to the display module. Also, I will secure the radiator and try riding it a bit. The radiator is wobbly because the fairing pieces that secure it are removed. I can steady it without replacing the fairing pieces temporarily. The 2013 DPS I installed didn't have a steering position sensor, but the old one matched and bolted on. Can that be initiated without BUDS? The 2013 unit removed the check DPS message and the corresponding error code. I haven't tried to ride it in limp home mode yet because it's a bit of a pain to get it up on those blocks. But I got those bottom panels reinstalled, so it's time to take it down. I may reinstall the lower panels first though. You know I just didn't realize what I was getting into with this thing, the last bike I rewired had points and carburetors. And I was a lot younger and healthier.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Hi thanks for the advice and information. I have never taken it out of neutral because it's blocked up under the wheels, both front and rear. So none of the wheels have turned. I'm sorry I didn't think to mention that. I replaced the DPS with a 2013 unit that cleared the Check DPS code it had - $166.00 instead of $ 1495.00 plus shipping and tax. I put a 2009 wiring harness in it used for under $100 used as opposed to $500.00 for a used 2008 harness. Both of these were identical to the original except for the plastic cover over the DPS motor. I downloaded a shop manual and an owner's manual. I changed the oil and filter and air filter and cleaned the plugs. I also put a seat cover on it. Next month I will buy new plugs. I have just today begun reinstalling the body panels. So far, I have reinstalled the two panels underneath the trike, the two screens, and the air cleaner box. Because winter is just around the corner, and I am at my wits end tracing the issues causing the last 3 codes. The last three codes are C0040 (Cleaned and lubricated the brake switch) this seems to have cleared this code. The next codes are U0100 and C0051. So, I think that's about it.

If you are changing the plugs, also change the plug wires .... they may be fine, but have a notoriously short life .... BajaRon sells plug wires at a good price, and you won't ever have to do that again.... Also, HONDA makes a re-placement exhaust gasket that's way better than the OEM ..... Good Luck ....Mike

[wtmjr]

Thanks, I'll replace the wires as well. My plugs keep fouling, so maybe that will help. I also forgot to mention that I bought a OBDPROG 100 to clear codes. It does that well but that's all it does. So, before I replaced the wiring harness, I repaired the old one. As I worked on it, I would clear the codes and start it up to see if I had fixed it. I burned 3 Gal. of gas that way and I got down to 7 codes. Then this 2009 harness popped up cheap, so I replaced the whole harness (nearly). Did a few repairs on it. I am using the best crimp connectors I can find (nickel plated solid copper) I bought the best crimping tool I could afford, and I use shrink wrap insulators. I also bought a set of waterproof automotive connectors because the old wiring harness had wires chewed off right at the connector. And some of the turn signal connectors were chewed up. I also had to replace the fog light switch because it was rusted and useless. I had to use an aftermarket switch because I couldn't find an OEM switch. I also polished the windshield because it was fogged, pitted and so occluded you could not see through it excepted dark and light spots and colors blurred together. Now it's not as good as new but you can see through it. Oh, and yes, I have tried the brake pedal procedure before I got the OBDPROG 100, but to try clearing a VSS code. I repaired the top U-shaped fairing piece with plastic epoxy, wire on the backside, and waxed the whole bike, cleaned and painted rust spots, and treated the tires with a poly coating. I have not greased the axles, bearings, or ball joints yet. I have really been concentrating on getting it running. I didn't want to put it all back together until I had completed all repairs and maintenance. One thing I also expect to do next month is to replace the air filter. I can't see paying $26.00 for an air filter, so I plan to just replace the filter element. I use a lot of E6000 adhesive around the house. I'm sure it will seal and hold up. I'll just buy an inexpensive automotive air filter and use that paper. $12.00 for a spark plug is exorbitant as well, but I found Aprilla plugs for half that - Identical plugs! I am also looking at the Rotella T6 line of oils to cut maintenance costs as well. I remember a good while back, I discovered 53 Chevy points worked perfectly in a Triumph 650 Bonneville - $0.58 cents as opposed to $6.00 for Triumph points. I guess I have always tried to find more practical ways to get things done. Anyway, I think that covers all the things I have done to the trike. I don't want to waste anyone's time due to lack of Information. Thanks, William.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Thanks, I'll replace the wires as well. My plugs keep fouling, so maybe that will help. I also forgot to mention that I bought a OBDPROG 100 to clear codes. It does that well but that's all it does. So, before I replaced the wiring harness, I repaired the old one. As I worked on it, I would clear the codes and start it up to see if I had fixed it. I burned 3 Gal. of gas that way and I got down to 7 codes. Then this 2009 harness popped up cheap, so I replaced the whole harness (nearly). Did a few repairs on it. I am using the best crimp connectors I can find (nickel plated solid copper) I bought the best crimping tool I could afford, and I use shrink wrap insulators. I also bought a set of waterproof automotive connectors because the old wiring harness had wires chewed off right at the connector. And some of the turn signal connectors were chewed up. I also had to replace the fog light switch because it was rusted and useless. I had to use an aftermarket switch because I couldn't find an OEM switch. I also polished the windshield because it was fogged, pitted and so occluded you could not see through it excepted dark and light spots and colors blurred together. Now it's not as good as new but you can see through it. Oh, and yes, I have tried the brake pedal procedure before I got the OBDPROG 100, but to try clearing a VSS code. I repaired the top U-shaped fairing piece with plastic epoxy, wire on the backside, and waxed the whole bike, cleaned and painted rust spots, and treated the tires with a poly coating. I have not greased the axles, bearings, or ball joints yet. I have really been concentrating on getting it running. I didn't want to put it all back together until I had completed all repairs and maintenance. One thing I also expect to do next month is to replace the air filter. I can't see paying $26.00 for an air filter, so I plan to just replace the filter element. I use a lot of E6000 adhesive around the house. I'm sure it will seal and hold up. I'll just buy an inexpensive automotive air filter and use that paper. $12.00 for a spark plug is exorbitant as well, but I found Aprilla plugs for half that - Identical plugs! I am also looking at the Rotella T6 line of oils to cut maintenance costs as well. I remember a good while back, I discovered 53 Chevy points worked perfectly in a Triumph 650 Bonneville - $0.58 cents as opposed to $6.00 for Triumph points. I guess I have always tried to find more practical ways to get things done. Anyway, I think that covers all the things I have done to the trike. I don't want to waste anyone's time due to lack of Information. Thanks, William.

Iv'e been using T-6 for many, many years now and like it a lot ..... in NM I'd use the 10w/40 weight .....Mike

[wtmjr]

Thanks Mike. 15 W 40 seems to be all that I can find right now. Do you think that will work? Also, apparently these engines burn oil I've read. What do you think of using viscosity boosters like Lucas or STP Motor Honey to reduce oil consumption. For years I have added some transmission fluid to engine oil a week or so before oil changes to clean out gunk. When I changed the oil on this Spyder I didn't do that for fear of causing the clutch to slip. Is this a good idea for these trikes? If so, what type would be best? PS I also had to repair the license plate light. The screw was punched through, and the gasket was shot. And finally, is there a way to check the ECM without BUDS? My primary goal is to get this Spyder running but while I'm at it I might as well try to make it last and in the process, address some cosmetic issues. Thanks William

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I would PM BajaRon about that, He's probably the most knowledgeable on stuff involving Oil ......Mike