Cornering Nightmare - Update

[Pirate]

Not terrible, but between the front wheels, back wheel, tire pressure, alignment, torque offset and sensors, it was a bit off in every area. A new rear tire, and we aligned it. Ann rode it, I rode it, and we could not get Nanny to react. Circ rode it, and could not, either. Fixed it! Thank you for the kind words. Not in Florida, yet; we do Demo rides for BRP in Las Vegas 8-9 October, then off to Florida on the 10th. Back home by 3 December. When on tour, Squared Away is on hold. Back to work in December, doing what we love to do: making Spyders SQUARED AWAY!! Joe

Ever come to central Cal or So Cal?

[PMK]

Not terrible, but between the front wheels, back wheel, tire pressure, alignment, torque offset and sensors, it was a bit off in every area. A new rear tire, and we aligned it. Ann rode it, I rode it, and we could not get Nanny to react. Circ rode it, and could not, either. Fixed it! Thank you for the kind words. Not in Florida, yet; we do Demo rides for BRP in Las Vegas 8-9 October, then off to Florida on the 10th. Back home by 3 December. When on tour, Squared Away is on hold. Back to work in December, doing what we love to do: making Spyders SQUARED AWAY!! Joe

To be clear, are you headed to Deland to do alignments again, or headed to Florida for ambassador training?

[PMK]

Not terrible, but between the front wheels, back wheel, tire pressure, alignment, torque offset and sensors, it was a bit off in every area. A new rear tire, and we aligned it. Ann rode it, I rode it, and we could not get Nanny to react. Circ rode it, and could not, either. Fixed it! Thank you for the kind words. Not in Florida, yet; we do Demo rides for BRP in Las Vegas 8-9 October, then off to Florida on the 10th. Back home by 3 December. When on tour, Squared Away is on hold. Back to work in December, doing what we love to do: making Spyders SQUARED AWAY!! Joe

Other owners, you should heed what has been posted within these posts but also the reply above specifically. These machines are a series of several systems, both mechanical, electronic and physical.

Granted, physically a rider can induce poor handling, but that requires an effort to do that. As for the mechanical and electronic stuff, each must be correct for all to play well together. Mechanically, a poor wheel alignment can create serious handling concerns or tire wear. A correct alignment without having the electronics in tune can trigger all sorts of concerns including handling glitches by activating safety systems. Even something as improper tire pressure can make the best setup machine a turd to ride. Not telling anyone what to do, just something to consider on these machines that employ so much technology.

[cptjam]

To be clear, are you headed to Deland to do alignments again, or headed to Florida for ambassador training?

Neither. Doing a 2022 demo tour to select dealers to showcase the new models. We asked to go to Deland, and the schedule conflicted. I’m hoping my fellow Floridians (high school in St.Pete, Grad school in Melbourne) can come see us! Our tours are so much better when we see our friends! All 21 of our weeks had friends stop by, and share the joy. Hope to see you all!! Joe

[cptjam]

Ever come to central Cal or So Cal?

We do! We need 8 Spyders per day of travel, so SoCal is 1 day. We have been to Tracy many times. Set it up with your club, and we are there!!

[cyclerambler]

Since my original post 'Cornering Nightmare' I have begun taking steps which many of you suggested. THANK YOU to all who contributed positive constructive ideas. As mentioned, step 1 was to install a Baja Ron Sway Bar and was always in the plan but I wanted to get intimate with the Spyder before making any changes. Sway bar is installed and it muted the problem but did not eliminate it. Several people suggested Laser alignment and zeroing out the Nanny sensors using Buds. Mentally, I had a hard time accepting why I should need either of those on a brand new machine but I sucked it up and had both done by one of the premiere techs in the Spyder World- Squared Away.

These guys KNOW Spyders inside and out and my RT is a completely different animal! It now responds to my input, does what I ask it to do and is a joy to drive/ride. I wish I had done this sooner. Joe and Ann have a passion for what they do and a passion for excellence. I seriously doubt anyone knows more about Spyders anywhere but they don't act like that and they do not charge accordingly. They are located in Las Vegas which was ideal for me but they travel the country doing demos for BRP and working with dealers everywhere. Currently I believe they have a gig in Florida. My unsolicited advice is; find out where they are and take your Spyder to them so they can make it run the way it was designed to.

I still feel there are some improvements to be made like a set of preload adjusters and possibly slightly stiffer springs but for now I am just having fun enjoying my 'new' machine.

If someone knows how to share The Squared Away logo with their info I would love it. For this technologically challenged motorhead, I just figured out how to use the emojis!

Have you made any of the shock updates since you started (preload adjusters/springs/new package)? If so can you share any what improvements you noticed? Agree with earlier posters that tight corners at 65 is dangerous...the rt is a great machine...going straight!

[JRat]

Neither. Doing a 2022 demo tour to select dealers to showcase the new models. We asked to go to Deland, and the schedule conflicted. I’m hoping my fellow Floridians (high school in St.Pete, Grad school in Melbourne) can come see us! Our tours are so much better when we see our friends! All 21 of our weeks had friends stop by, and share the joy. Hope to see you all!! Joe

Do you ever come to Indiana?

[Peteoz]

Thanks Jim, I am currently a “push with the outside arm” guy. I’ll give this method a run

Pete

So, Jim…….after a couple of months riding using your pull rather than my past push method on the bars, I have to say that I am far more comfortable with your method. There is something about pulling with the inside arm that makes cornering at all speeds a little smoother for me. I believe it slightly moves my body weight to the inside. I still use both arms from time to time, but predominately use the pull method. Thanks very much for the suggestion

Pete

[Circ]

Cyclerambler, I have not made any more modifications yet. I want to ride a bit more on my 'new' machine and learn to 'feel' how the changes I made affect the handling. I can still induce the nanny but it takes a pretty heavy off-camber corner to do so. I am leaning towards BajaRon preloads with a spring upgrade but need more seat time to make that decision.

Only dragsters go straight

[Lew L]

Cyclerambler,

Only dragsters go straight

Maybe you've never ridden a Gen 1 V-Max Made some mods and it's better but not "good" Launches hard though.............

[Circ]

New update to my older update! As planned, I put several thousand miles on our new machine, then installed a front suspension upgrade. We went with Baja Ron Preload Adjusters and did not upgrade the springs. There are 8 turns available and Ron told me no-one goes above 5. I laughed (silently) and thought "well, I just might be the exception!" After seating the adjusters, I started at position 3 (turns). Improvement but not what I was hoping for. I put at least 100-200 mi on each setting up to 4 then 5. I found the handling characteristics tapered off at 5 so I backed it off and have put a couple thousand miles on 4.5. By tapered off I mean it becomes too precise to input. Almost to the point of twitchy or a skating feeling. This is exacerbated at speed. Not willing to say what speed because I have no interest in being chastised for my riding style! (again).
As many of you know this upgrade is amazing and combined with a Baja Ron sway bar and letting Joe and Ann work their magic at Squared Away, our Spyder now performs with (almost) no intervention. I am still able to engage the Nanny but it is way more predictable and I can usually keep out of this dangerous feature with less aggressive behavior.

I believe my next upgrade will be a slightly stiffer spring but this is my analysis so far.

[tntnj]

When I had my 2017 F3 LTD on the Dragon a few years ago, on the real tight turns the Nanny kicked in, so I just gave it more throttle. But it was not to the point that I couldn't enjoy the ride.

Circ, I hope you get the bike tuned to your liking. These bikes are fun to ride, I sold my F3 and bought a Harley Freewheeler... (hated it) and sold it after 6 months and bought a 2021 RT base and not regretting it.

[Rednaxs60]

Circ - following your interesting thread. Riding profile and a person's performance requirements differ greatly between riders. Just returned from a 17,000 Km cross Canada trip, two up towing an N-Line trailer. Bought our 2014 Spyder RTL in Mar 2021, and the upgrade to date is the suspension. Installed M2 shocks, front/rear.

PMK has commented on my thread regarding suspension as has others. I do not expect the Spyder to be a track racer, but I do want to minimize the lean/roll in the corners.

There is a lot of older information on this forum regarding suspension upgrades and is good to delve into. There is not a lot of information outside of the forums, but since the Spyder is very similar to a snowmobile, the snowmobile world is a good resource regarding suspension. My avatar is a, I think, a '70 Skidoo with a summer wheel kit. Tried one of these kits out in the early '70s. This three wheel reverse trike concept is not new.

The rear M2 shock came with a 525 lb/in shock spring, changed to a 700 lb/in shock spring, found it too stiff, settled on a 600 lb/in shock spring. Did the cross Canada trip with the 600 lb/in shock spring with the air assist at minimum and it worked/performed quite well.

As for the front shocks, shock springs were changed from the 250 lb/in as installed to a 300 lb/in shock spring. The additional 50 lb/in rate took a lot of the roll/lean out of the Spyder, but not as much as I would like. Having the passenger assist in the corners helped as well, learning experience for both of us. The Mrs thought that the Spyder being a reverse trike did not require her assistance on the corners as do two wheel bikes.

I'm keeping the shock rebound damping settings as set by the factory, adjusting the damping settings for rebound, and thinking about what shock spring change I should do.

The information I took from other threads is that a 400 lb/in front shock spring is possibly the optimum for these RT models. It was doene on a 2012 RT, and the newer ones are slightly heavier.

The 300 lb/in shock spring does not give a harsh ride with the shock rebound damping at factory setting. I tried the rebound damping at a setting that further reduced body roll/lean, but in doing so, the shock was too stiff and it would "hammer" at the frame. Very uncomfortable noise.

I am going to use the rebound damping adjustment as a measurement to indicate what shock spring I should use - want to stay as close as possible to the factory rebound damping setting to optimize the internal shock valving. For every 10 clicks from the factory rebound damping setting, I am going to increase the shock spring rate by 50 lb/in. I will not be upgrading the shock spring to more than 400 lb/in so I only have two more iterations to try. Very scientific way to go forward.

I want to be as close as possible to the factory setting with the shock springs. Heavier/stiffer shock springs will reduce the amount of preload required to get the correct front ride height - want to try and keep to a maximum of 1 cm (1/2 inch) preload adjustment for front ride height.

My thoughts on the shock spring rate is that if the internal valving is correct for the shock spring being used, the ride quality will be good, and primary roll/lean mitigation will be the shock spring, not the person riding the Spyder - don't like hanging out the side of the Spyder.

I also think the more chassis support from the front shock spring the easier it is to steer the Spyder, and the better the Spyder will perform on corners - sweeping or otherwise.

Having mentioned the above, preload is only for setting the ride height, not for adjusting the stiff/soft aspect of the shock even though it will help a bit. You need to change the shock spring if preload cannot be set as required. You need the appropriate shock spring to compensate for the weight of the Spyder and rider.

From what I have read, I think the OEM front shock spring rate is approximately 200 lb/in. Gives a Cadillac type ride, but sucks in the roll/lean aspect of the Spyder. This fellow installed 400 lb/in front shock springs on the OEM shock and reported the ride as "wonderful", like floating on air. This fellow did a lot of testing and reported his findings in his thread.

Another fellow on this forum installed a 600 lb/in rear shock spring on the OEM shock and reported that it worked well.

Won't belabour the issue, will continue to follow. Good luck. Cheers

[Circ]

tntnj,
I am not able to over-ride the Nanny by giving it more throttle. Believe me, I have tried many times. My nanny literally shuts it down. Scares the snot out of me. Mods are helping immensely.

[Peter Aawen]

When I had my 2017 F3 LTD on the Dragon a few years ago, on the real tight turns the Nanny kicked in, so I just gave it more throttle. But it was not to the point that I couldn't enjoy the ride.

Circ, I hope you get the bike tuned to your liking. These bikes are fun to ride, I sold my F3 and bought a Harley Freewheeler... (hated it) and sold it after 6 months and bought a 2021 RT base and not regretting it.

tntnj,
I am not able to over-ride the Nanny by giving it more throttle. Believe me, I have tried many times. My nanny literally shuts it down. Scares the snot out of me. Mods are helping immensely.

The F3 Nannies allow a little more steering angle, a little more yaw, & a little more wheelspin than the RT Nannies, so if you're careful not to reach the limits of any of those parameters on your Spyder, you can actually hang the tail of an F3 on the corners somewhat more than you can on an RT!

Both will let you do that tail happy bit to a carefully monitored 'certain extent', but the F3's have a little more leeway than the RT's; and while this applies to both, it applies particularly with the RT's, there's a very definite 'that's enough, now behave!' rap over the knuckles from the Nanny that brooks absobloodylutely NO pushing of the boundaries, sneak up on the limits of steering angles, yaw limits, &/or wheelspin however carefully you might try!!

That said, if you're prepared to move your body around more as you corner, maybe even pulling in hard on the inside bar & getting down to kiss your wrist while hanging your tail off the inside of the seat on tight corners and so work hard to keep your weight in & down going into & thru the corners, thereby limiting the RT's body roll & yaw, you juuust might find that you can get around the harder/tighter corners somewhat quicker with no Nanny intervention than you do when just sitting on the seat & expecting the bike to do all the work for you will allow; but it does get to be fairly hard work pretty quickly, especially on the RT's - fun tho, & a great work-out, thighs, glutes, & upper body especially!

[UtahPete]

I've got soooo much more to learn about modding and riding the Spyder optimally. I'm inspired by you lot.

[PMK]

tntnj,
I am not able to over-ride the Nanny by giving it more throttle. Believe me, I have tried many times. My nanny literally shuts it down. Scares the snot out of me. Mods are helping immensely.

Our 2014 is currently very dialed in handling wise. I am planning to make adjustments to further increase the Spyders ability to corner better and faster with even less chassis lean. With the setup installed of Fox Shox, Ron bar, Formoza tires and aligned by myself, the Spyder has incredible straight line stability, while being able to corner intensely without triggering the Nanny stability system. I do have plans to alter the front ride height in an effort to lower CG and better position the instantaneous chassis roll center. Ideally I can get a bit of negative camber without making parts. As before, will align to my own settings and reset the sensors with BUDS.

I do leave the BRP hitch installed all the time to increase the twisting stiffness of the rear suspension swingarm. This helps prevent the swingarm from winding up in the corners and unwinding like a spring when corner forces are reduced. The hitch acts similar to having a rear swaybar. Rear tire grip is a non issue with the increased stiffness of the swingarm on account that our setup uses high performance summer weather rear tire that is super tacky.

[Circ]

Ernest, Thank you for your detailed, 'scientific' and thoughtful response. Your original input was largely responsible for my direction. Thanks also for verifying my next approach of springs. Like yourself, I would have put an additional 50 lbs into them. I believe my RT is way undersprung and will probably go to a 400 lb spring in the front. My CFO thanks you for saving me from buying a part twice!

Love your Avatar and totally remember the mod for the Skidoo. If memory serves me, it graced the cover of Popular Mechanics.

[Circ]

PMK, I have no idea what it feels like to NOT have the hitch on. It has been on since day one. What you say makes good sense regarding cornering forces. Due to the receiver I welded onto the hitch for my bike rack, it will never be removed. I hope this pic comes out. My computer is 20 years old and my brain is....well, significantly older than that.
resized Can Am in SD.jpg