Starting a New Audio Project - 2018 RTL

[mkess]

Hi All,

I'm a noob here. First post. I have been working really hard to crack the algorithm for great sound on my wife's 2018 RTL. I've tried multiple speakers on the back signal to test vs the front stocks. I couldn't get anything the was a quality speaker to sound better and louder than stock. I determined that I hade to deal with the radio signal. I need to document this journey somewhere and this seems like a friendly place.

Like I said, I have tried swapping speakers and BION the stock ones are the loudest. So to clean the sound, I chose a quality amplifier. I have had great success with the back speakers and will be tackling the fronts in July-Aug timeframe.

Current State:
- Front's are stock speakers w no mods.
- Rear's are stock speaker (I measured at 3.6 ohms) w one amplifier (set on 4 ohm) per speaker.
--- Rockford-Fosgate-PM100X1
----- Noteworthy: Marine quality. Uses the voltage in the speaker wire, so only butts in to the speaker connections and has a single ground wire (no power wire).
--- These amps are set to 4ohm and 100h
--- Fader is set one notch toward the front.

Future State:
- Rear
--- Upgrade to stock 5.25 speakers.
----- I will have to mod the housing. Already have the speakers coming. They came out of the front of a 2019 RTL.
----- Change to 60h.
----- Set Fader flat.
- Front
--- I won't know until I learn the ohms and the wiring relationship of the woofers and tweeters. But I will use this thread to document.

Here's some pics so far:

Dottie RTL.jpg
Dottie one amp viewpoint.jpg

We will be at the Spyder Rally this weekend in Hot Springs if you want a look-see and chew the fat. The difference in sound quality between the front and the back is very easy to hear.

Cheers!
-Mark

Keywords: audio, speakers, ohms, amplifier, louder, upgrade, sound, clearer

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Wishing you success with this Mark, a few have tried and failed ...... But as far as testing goes " radio signals " are not the best source .... use something that produces a sound that is constant and consistent ie. recorded music ( MP-3 etc. ) ..... hope you solve this mystery ..... I have a 14 RT and only had to swap the four speakers without an added Amp , I have excellent sound now ..... Mike

[mkess]

I have a 14 RT and only had to swap the four speakers without an added Amp , I have excellent sound now

I saw your youtube videos when I first started thinking about better audio. Very well done. I have also read a ton of these threads where people have tried and didn't get the results I would want. This is my first audio project ever and I am trying to learn the craft and do it myself so I can save money. I have multiple vehicles I want to upgrade the sounds on. Last month I bought a DD-1 plus. The DD-1 plus came with a selection of tracks designed to test the signal. And I just found out that I have access to a friend's oscilloscope if I need it. I have your kicker speakers and the polks sitting on deck and I have a Rockford-Fosgate-PM300X2 as well. Anything I don't use on this project will just get have to be used in another.

I'm having trouble uploading a picture. I will try to edit and add here later.

Let me know of any threads you think would be helpful. Cheers!

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I saw your youtube videos when I first started thinking about better audio. Very well done. I have also read a ton of these threads where people have tried and didn't get the results I would want. This is my first audio project ever and I am trying to learn the craft and do it myself so I can save money. I have multiple vehicles I want to upgrade the sounds on. Last month I bought a DD-1 plus. The DD-1 plus came with a selection of tracks designed to test the signal. And I just found out that I have access to a friend's oscilloscope if I need it. I have your kicker speakers and the polks sitting on deck and I have a Rockford-Fosgate-PM300X2 as well. Anything I don't use on this project will just get have to be used in another.

I'm having trouble uploading a picture. I will try to edit and add here later.

Let me know of any threads you think would be helpful. Cheers!

PM " Rattlebars " He has worked on this issue also ..... Prior to 2018 models, a speaker swap would work ..... But BRP did something radically different when they integrated the Audio into the instrument cluster. ..... I don't know why swapping to better speakers doesn't achieve what it did on pre 18 systems .... but it doesn't according to the few who have tried .... Good Luck .... Mike

[RideOn]

As someone who has pursued audio systems as a serious hobby for most of my life (although I'm not an audio professional), the piece that I see missing in this discussion is the idea this is a "system" and not merely a collection of parts.

For example, what you might call a "speaker" - either on the Spyder or at home - consists of at least two parts: the driver (the active part) and the enclosure (the passive part). They are meant to work together to create the desired sound. I think that helps to explain why the act of changing drivers does not always improve the "sound" of the system. It's a fairly complex interaction.

But beyond that, there is also the synergy (ability to play well together) created by the separate parts of the audio system. As in computers, so in audio: garbage in, garbage out. If you play inferior sources (radio and, yes, highly compressed MP3s) then you will forever after have inferior sound. So swapping amplifiers, speaker drivers, etc. should be done on a trial-and-error basis to ensure this synergy by listening to the result. A "better" (usually read 'more expensive') amplifier may or may not improve the sound of the system. Without synergy, there is no improvement, only a parts swap. While system impedance and power matching might determine electrical compatibility, it does not promise synergy in the sound. Whether it is the insanely expensive or the cheap, crappy piece of electronics, each has a "sound" that may or may not improve the system unless it also contributes to synergy.

That may be why, as Mike said, it's been difficult to improve much on the BRP setup. The manufacturer has complete control of all the parameters in the system. Parts substitution does not and cannot allow that. That does not mean you can't improve the sound, only that the path to improvement needs to be considered in the context of the system and not strictly at the component level.

Bob

[mkess]

Hi Bob. Everything I have seen and read has been around the changing of speakers, or changing speakers with adding amplifier(s). I have had great luck cleaning and amplifying the signal whilst keeping the stock speakers. I'm going to try and continue that for the fronts since the backs turned out stellar. Cheers!

[mkess]

Drove 4 hours to Hot Springs and one of the amps shutoff. It was a loose ground. I pulled the plastic in the shade at our hotel and set'er straight. Now that we are back, I will be pulling the front speakers. Depending on if the tweeter quits working when I pull the wire on the woofer, will determine whether I have to join signals or not before amp-ing them. I am leaning toward adding these small amps to the front woofers and setting the Htz on 60 and calling it done. I have the rears set to 100, but if the signal is seperated and not duplicated on the fronts, I could set the woofer amp to 60 easily. These little amps have proven their worth already on the rears. The sound is a little louder with them, but so much cleaner. Seems possible as a front solution now since a sub install does not really hold my wife's attention. She doesn't want to give up any space in the frunk. More to come.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Drove 4 hours to Hot Springs and one of the amps shutoff. It was a loose ground. I pulled the plastic in the shade at our hotel and set'er straight. Now that we are back, I will be pulling the front speakers. Depending on if the tweeter quits working when I pull the wire on the woofer, will determine whether I have to join signals or not before amp-ing them. I am leaning toward adding these small amps to the front woofers and setting the Htz on 60 and calling it done. I have the rears set to 100, but if the signal is seperated and not duplicated on the fronts, I could set the woofer amp to 60 easily. These little amps have proven their worth already on the rears. The sound is a little louder with them, but so much cleaner. Seems possible as a front solution now since a sub install does not really hold my wife's attention. She doesn't want to give up any space in the frunk. More to come.

" Amps " ... why do you use more than one Amp ..... Mike

[mkess]

These amps (amplifiers) are per speaker. https://www.crutchfield.com/p_575PM1...e-PM100X1.html

They don't take any more power than the radio already reserves for the speakers. Thus, I don't need to improve battery or alternator. They are one channel amps.

I got the fronts out. the woofers and tweeters are all 3.6 ohm speakers. And when I unplug the woofer - the tweeter still plays. So no I have to determine if the radio head unit is 4 channels to the front or 2 splits. I would assume 2 split channels. But I will confirm before I proceed with a solution design.

[trikermutha]

I wonder how a DSP would work on the audio?

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

These amps (amplifiers) are per speaker. https://www.crutchfield.com/p_575PM1...e-PM100X1.html

They don't take any more power than the radio already reserves for the speakers. Thus, I don't need to improve battery or alternator. They are one channel amps.

I got the fronts out. the woofers and tweeters are all 3.6 ohm speakers. And when I unplug the woofer - the tweeter still plays. So no I have to determine if the radio head unit is 4 channels to the front or 2 splits. I would assume 2 split channels. But I will confirm before I proceed with a solution design.

$ 540.00 for Amps !!!! .... I have the OEM head unit + 4 - 5.25 JBL speakers and spent less $250.00 .... and I can't play it full volume because it hurts my ears. ... the quality of the sound imho is excellent. I wish you the best of luck on your Quest .... Mike

[mkess]

I wonder how a DSP would work on the audio?

After I installed the amps in the rear, I wondered that as well, but RockfordFosgate does good enough to clean it up. I tested the tweeters and the woofers in the front in a fun way. I ran just the woofer on the woofer wires then the tweeter wires. There is an audible difference in bass from the woofer wires. I did the same with the tweeters and I knew right then that the signal really needs more separation. I think I'm going to add this amp to the woofers and set the pass for mid (and experiment with a PLC w Clipping Indicator and bass boost). Then I'm just going to put a filter on the tweeters and leave them unamplified (for now).

Frunk Amp.jpg Front Woofer and Tweeter wires.jpg

[mkess]

Hey @TrikerMutha,

Here is the perfect DSP channel format for my model. 2 rears, 4 fronts, 1 sub. https://www.crutchfield.com/p_5753SI...-3Sixty-3.html . I am thinking about it!

[RideOn]

Hey @TrikerMutha,

Here is the perfect DSP channel format for my model. 2 rears, 4 fronts, 1 sub. https://www.crutchfield.com/p_5753SI...-3Sixty-3.html . I am thinking about it!

I do like that you're willing to experiment... and listen! That's what the audio hobby is really about, getting closer to the sound you want, not just following someone else's opinion.

Best wishes for success in your quest - keep us posted.


Bob

[trikermutha]

You really want to use rca?

[EdMat]

Hey @TrikerMutha,

Here is the perfect DSP channel format for my model. 2 rears, 4 fronts, 1 sub. https://www.crutchfield.com/p_5753SI...-3Sixty-3.html . I am thinking about it!

Guess that would be one way to get your GPS to interrupt your music and play over your speakers for those that want that.

[mkess]

You really want to use rca?

Yeah I don't think I'm going to use DSP. At the end of the day, clearer sound can be achieved with a RF amp. At least enough for her to be satisfied. But I would appreciate if you would drop the knowledge on me about the pros and cons. Cheers!

[mkess]

Guess that would be one way to get your GPS to interrupt your music and play over your speakers for those that want that.

It's a legitimate concern for sure, but my wife doesn't mind now.

[mkess]

I do like that you're willing to experiment... and listen! That's what the audio hobby is really about, getting closer to the sound you want, not just following someone else's opinion.

Best wishes for success in your quest - keep us posted.


Bob

Thanks, Bob! Yeah the threshold is actually kind of low. My wife would just be happy with clearer sound. But I have learned so much already, I am starting to learn what I want to do our other vehicles. My standards are getting higher everyday. Cheers!

[mkess]

A lot of testing this evening. Distortion in the radio starts just above half volume on the main speakers (fronts). The sound doesn't really get loud until 75% with peak loudness around 90%. I put 600 Hz bass blockers on the front tweeters and I am pleased with them at volume. With 100w to 4ohm speakers, 4-inch doesn't handle well. 5.25 4ohms do much better with the winner being the Polk marine speaker - the same one everyone else likes. I can't upgrade the front speakers to a 5.25, so I am going to try to redeploy the freeloader amps to the front woofers and try 5.25 upgrades in the rear with the big amp. If it is good enough, I am done. If not, I will start looking at DSPs. Cheers!

Bass Blockers.jpg Test Table.jpg

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

A lot of testing this evening. Distortion in the radio starts just above half volume on the main speakers (fronts). The sound doesn't really get loud until 75% with peak loudness around 90%. I put 600 Hz bass blockers on the front tweeters and I am pleased with them at volume. With 100w to 4ohm speakers, 4-inch doesn't handle well. 5.25 4ohms do much better with the winner being the Polk marine speaker - the same one everyone else likes. I can't upgrade the front speakers to a 5.25, so I am going to try to redeploy the freeloader amps to the front woofers and try 5.25 upgrades in the rear with the big amp. If it is good enough, I am done. If not, I will start looking at DSPs. Cheers!

Bass Blockers.jpg Test Table.jpg

I have a 2014 RT and swapped out the OEM FRONT speakers to JBL 2 Ohm ... 5.25 ( the same size as the OEM's ). ..... Mike

[mkess]

I have a 2014 RT and swapped out the OEM FRONT speakers to JBL 2 Ohm ... 5.25 ( the same size as the OEM's ). ..... Mike

Here is a JBL that has the lowest response of the JBLs at 55Hz. JBL Stadium 52F. I am curious if they will fit in her 2018. I will have to think thru how to figure that out. I would definitely like 5.25's in the front. What model are yours?

I am trying to track down this DSP - ADDSP46. They are currently out of stock - prolly due to the chip shortage. But it's the one I have decided to go with. I am happy with the bass blockers on the tweeters up front and don't have any plans to revisit for now. This DSP would allow for the 4 main speakers to be managed. However, while the DSP is out-of-stock, I will continue to solve for my solution as I outlined previous and if it is good enough, I may stop. But already, I continue to have the weird urge to keep raising the bar on what the definition of done is.

One thing I don't understand is that some people are using 2ohm speakers but my stock speakers are 4ohm (3.6 to be precise). What is the theory of the effect of replacing 4 w/ 2? I know people have done it and report no issues, but I want to know what the theory of the concern is.

[Joel The Biker]

I completed my upgrade on my 2021 RT. Rockford Fosgate 400watt amp, custom harness, all plug-n-play. 1/4 volume is like being at a concert.
IMG_20210618_181642053 (800x450).jpgIMG_20210605_080747710 (576x1024).jpgIMG_20210605_080806016 (1024x576).jpg

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Here is a JBL that has the lowest response of the JBLs at 55Hz. JBL Stadium 52F. I am curious if they will fit in her 2018. I will have to think thru how to figure that out. I would definitely like 5.25's in the front. What model are yours?

I am trying to track down this DSP - ADDSP46. They are currently out of stock - prolly due to the chip shortage. But it's the one I have decided to go with. I am happy with the bass blockers on the tweeters up front and don't have any plans to revisit for now. This DSP would allow for the 4 main speakers to be managed. However, while the DSP is out-of-stock, I will continue to solve for my solution as I outlined previous and if it is good enough, I may stop. But already, I continue to have the weird urge to keep raising the bar on what the definition of done is.

One thing I don't understand is that some people are using 2ohm speakers but my stock speakers are 4ohm (3.6 to be precise). What is the theory of the effect of replacing 4 w/ 2? I know people have done it and report no issues, but I want to know what the theory of the concern is.

I have GTO 528's in front and 508c in the rear , both are 5.25 in. size .... they are now out of production ...... Ohm theory - if you have 18w at 4 ohm's, that will mean 36w @ 2 ohms effectively speaking. If the head unit is for an 8 ohm system I wouldn't have tried it. But the folks at JBL said from 4 to 2 wouldn't be an issue. Read what " Joel The Biker " achieved - it may be a miracle ..... MIke

[mkess]

I completed my upgrade on my 2021 RT. Rockford Fosgate 400watt amp, custom harness, all plug-n-play. 1/4 volume is like being at a concert.

SpyderPops played my stock 2018 next to a stock 2021 that was in the shop same time as ours. The 2021 blew ours away. It was way clearer and louder. I am going for more clarity and a little more volume. Rockford Fosgate is my brand of choice so I definitely dig your setup.

I have GTO 528's in front and 508c in the rear , both are 5.25 in. size .... they are now out of production ...... Ohm theory - if you have 18w at 4 ohm's, that will mean 36w @ 2 ohms effectively speaking. If the head unit is for an 8 ohm system I wouldn't have tried it. But the folks at JBL said from 4 to 2 wouldn't be an issue. Read what " Joel The Biker " achieved - it may be a miracle ..... MIke

I had some Kicker 10PS5250 5-1/4" 2-way motorcycle speakers (2-ohm) and I tried them out today. They did great. Way more volume and very clear. I don't know if I can get them to fit the rear slots. I know they won't fit the front. I'll be doing some dremmell-ing on the enclosures and grinding on the metal speakers to get them to fit. Still have concerns on if my year model is 2-ohm stable. I will probably put a potentiometer on them, so I'll have the ability to reduce the watts on demand if issues arise.