Removing Front Drive Sprocket (that has significant wear)

[pauly1]

Out for a ride yesterday and SpyderDeb notice something not right on her 2018 F3-L. I rode it and noticed the “noise” at low speeds. Definitely on the drive side and close to the engine. Tried to view the drive sprocket and took a couple of photos, looking for the “red dust”. A little could be found but not bad; Photo 1.

Put the bike in my shop and pulled the cover off from over the drive sprocket. Not a lot of dust but some. Removed the flange-head bolt and found the smoking gun; Photo 2. Loosened the drive belt and pulled from the rear sprocket, then the front. With the bolt removed and the belt off, the full movement of the sprocket on the spline shaft could be felt.

Tried to get the sprocket splines aligned with the drive shaft, put a gear puller on it, and it wouldn’t budge. As the puller was a Harbor Freight special, I was reluctant to put too much force on the bolt. But yet it rattled on the drive shaft.

I recalled seeing a photo of the drive shaft end: there was a circumferential groove where the splines ran out into the shoulder, and the sprocket registers against the shoulder. Any wear on the splines would likely leave a ridge of unworn splines on that side of the sprocket. Simply pulling with any gear puller would need to shear the unworn ends of the splines if the splines were not aligned. I needed something to be able to force registration of the spline sets.

Added washers, a flat washer and two spring-type lock washers, to the bolt and screwed back into its hole; Photo 3. Note: the washer OD needs to be smaller than the minor diameter of the sprocket splines. Snugged the bolt up with a wrench to collapse the spring washers: now the bolt could be used as the base for gear puller. Played with and studied the sprocket movement on the shaft, noting the gaps visible at times between the spline sets; see Photo 4. Rationalized the wear would be the mating spline faces, so forcing the drive sprocket CCW on the shaft by holding the bolt head and moving the sprocket by hand, rotating slightly and pulling outward, until I could feel it “seat” and visually the gaps in the spline surfaces were gone. The washers, as spacers, would allow the sprocket to be pulled outward about ¼”; Photo 5, noting the center punch mark to register the point of the gear puller.

Attached the gear puller, centering the point on the screw on the head of the bolt; Photo 6. This time, after an initial, more modest resistance, the sprocket pulled easily until it reached the bolt head. Removed puller, removed bolt, reinstalled puller and finish removing from the shaft.

As suspected, the center part of the splines in the gear bore were worn with rings of untouched splines at both the inner and outer edges; Photo 7. In my case, the sprocket was not slipping on the shaft. Whether substantially worn or spinning on the drive shaft, one should take care to align the spline remnants to be able to pull the sprocket without shearing metal. Once removed from the drive shaft, one could see substantial red dust and metal particles on the transmission side of the sprocket; Photo 7.

Cleaned up the shaft spline and shoulder using brake cleaner and a wire brush; Photo 8 – before, and Photo 9 - after. Ready for the new sprocket…which is on back order from BRP.

[Haze]

Fantastic write up. Thank you for the narative and the photos.
This is going to save me a lot of frustration when it comes time to pull the sprocket.

[JayBros]

As long as this problem has existed it's absolutely inexcusable that BRP has replacement sprockets on backorder.

[Snoking1127]

How many miles on it?

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

As long as this problem has existed it's absolutely inexcusable that BRP has replacement sprockets on backorder.

Jay, I believe they are back-ordered because soooooooooooooooo many of them are now failing ..... this should become a warranty item and/or a re-call .... my question is WHY is this now becoming as issue. ..... I have a 14 RT with 57,000 + mi. and no Red Dust ..... Mike

[pauly1]

Snoking1127: This 2018 F3-L had 20.5K miles on it.

[PW2013STL]

Hi Wayne,

Did you order the new white sprocket? That's what I put on Kathy's 2018F3L. She noticed a noise and my investigation turned up a lot more red dust than Deb's. Don't know if the new sprocket will be any better, but know the old sprockets aren't working. I did the labor, but Caswell's covered the cost of the parts. I covered the cleaned up shaft with a good coating of Honda assembly lube that has a high concentration of moly.
Kathy's F3 had 32,000 miles on it.
Interesting that Deb's old 2015 F3 had 56,000 miles on it when I traded it for my 2020 RTL and it never had the red rust issue.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Hi Wayne,

Did you order the new white sprocket? That's what I put on Kathy's 2018F3L. She noticed a noise and my investigation turned up a lot more red dust than Deb's. Don't know if the new sprocket will be any better, but know the old sprockets aren't working. I did the labor, but Caswell's covered the cost of the parts. I covered the cleaned up shaft with a good coating of Honda assembly lube that has a high concentration of moly.
Kathy's F3 had 32,000 miles on it.
Interesting that Deb's old 2015 F3 had 56,000 miles on it when I traded it for my 2020 RTL and it never had the red rust issue.

I think this " front sprocket issue " falls into the same category as the " DESS " module problem. Someone decided to fix something that wasn't broken .... and managed to break it ..... jmho .... Mike

[pauly1]

Hi Wayne,

Did you order the new white sprocket? That's what I put on Kathy's 2018F3L. She noticed a noise and my investigation turned up a lot more red dust than Deb's. Don't know if the new sprocket will be any better, but know the old sprockets aren't working. I did the labor, but Caswell's covered the cost of the parts. I covered the cleaned up shaft with a good coating of Honda assembly lube that has a high concentration of moly.
Kathy's F3 had 32,000 miles on it.
Interesting that Deb's old 2015 F3 had 56,000 miles on it when I traded it for my 2020 RTL and it never had the red rust issue.

I found a new-version white sprocket, 705503239, at a dealer in TX. Shout out on behalf of Freedom Powersports, Weatherford, TX, for connecting me with Texas Adventure Powersports, as they had two in stock (and BRP was on backorder). Plus Texas Adventure would get it shipped out on a Saturday (they are closed Sun and Mon). Ordered the Honda M-77 Paste from the local Honda auto dealer. So it will get put back together later this week.

We loved to ride that white 2015 F3-S: glad it didn't cause you problems! I had reduced the belt tension on that bike at the first tire change around 11K miles. My current 2015 F3-S has 32K miles without issues, and we ride the crap out of it. Now struggling "if it isn't broke, don't fix it", vs "curiosity as to how bad it may be" and take it apart when I do the next service.

I had noticed a "crunching" or popping sound as I manually pushed/pulled the 2018 F3-L around on our driveway. BTW, I had reduced belt tension when I changed the first tire @ 17.5K miles (yes, the original Kenda) to 150 - 160 using the Krikit gauge.

We miss the Caswell Cycles gang!

[Freddy]

The spline on the shaft looks to be worn also. Is it, or just the angle of the pic?

[pauly1]

Good point, Freddy: I noticed that in the photo, too. I think its a bit of fish-eye effect and lighting as I was quite close to take the photo; it looked good, noting that the top edges of the shaft splines were still crisp and not rounded over. I used to use Dykem and steel ink when checking mating surfaces when I worked as a tool maker. Once I know the new sprocket slips into position, I'll put some ink on the surfaces looking for high spot contacts.

[UtahPete]

Good to know. Hope I don't have to deal with it.

[SpyderF3-s]

I have little over 83,000 miles on my 2015 Spyder F3-S SE6(daily driver). I checkout my sprocket on a monthly basis. I found the red dust...AGAIN! I am now going on my 4th sprocket replacement. Sprocket seems to only last about 20,000 miles. This time I will be getting the new white sprocket. Hope this is better!

[pauly1]

Couple of data points. The splines on the shaft did have observable wear near the end of the shaft, not an artifact in the photo. I installed the painted sprocket, using a Loctite 65% moly paste (LB 8012). As I was installing the new bolt, I measured 35-40 in•lb of torque just before the bolt head seated against the sprocket, the resistance due to the yellow thread lock. The flange head retainer bolt was torqued to 110 lb•ft. I had backed off the belt tension bolts 4 turn's when removing the belt, but only needed 2 1/2 to get the belt tension to 130-140 on the Krikit with the rear wheel off the ground. Aligned the belt on the sprocket to be centered on the rear sprocket, which remained perfectly centered after test ride: previously the belt would walk outward and require readjustment.

[T.P.]

GREAT POST WAYNE!! Lots of people should be able to follow your instructions and do the fix on there own.

Now we need a rear tire change done on Debs F3L

T.P.

[pauly1]

GREAT POST WAYNE!! Lots of people should be able to follow your instructions and do the fix on there own.

Now we need a rear tire change done on Debs F3L

T.P.

Did the tire in March, doing old school with tire irons and leather cawls to protect the painted rims. Installed a Kenda Kanine. (The OEM Kenda tire had 20K miles.)

[acdcking12]

What kind of noise do you hear from these before failure?

[Freddy]

Some folks hear nothing; some folks hear a rattle.

[SpyderF3-s]

If you are coasting on a down hill you will hear a grinding noise. That has been my indicator that the sprocket is ready to fail

[BazF]

I check my sprocket on my F3T fairly often and have seen no rust. My mate has just had a bit of a disaster with his front sprocket, same model, so I decided to remove mine to look at it closer. If I have the sprocket off, may just as well replace it, I think it will be an investment. New one took one week to be delivered to me. Start the job tomorrow. Wish me luck.

[DerSpyGuy]

Out for a ride yesterday and SpyderDeb notice something not right on her 2018 F3-L. I rode it and noticed the “noise” at low speeds. Definitely on the drive side and close to the engine. Tried to view the drive sprocket and took a couple of photos, looking for the “red dust”. A little could be found but not bad; Photo 1.

Put the bike in my shop and pulled the cover off from over the drive sprocket. Not a lot of dust but some. Removed the flange-head bolt and found the smoking gun; Photo 2. Loosened the drive belt and pulled from the rear sprocket, then the front. With the bolt removed and the belt off, the full movement of the sprocket on the spline shaft could be felt.

Tried to get the sprocket splines aligned with the drive shaft, put a gear puller on it, and it wouldn’t budge. As the puller was a Harbor Freight special, I was reluctant to put too much force on the bolt. But yet it rattled on the drive shaft.

I recalled seeing a photo of the drive shaft end: there was a circumferential groove where the splines ran out into the shoulder, and the sprocket registers against the shoulder. Any wear on the splines would likely leave a ridge of unworn splines on that side of the sprocket. Simply pulling with any gear puller would need to shear the unworn ends of the splines if the splines were not aligned. I needed something to be able to force registration of the spline sets.

Added washers, a flat washer and two spring-type lock washers, to the bolt and screwed back into its hole; Photo 3. Note: the washer OD needs to be smaller than the minor diameter of the sprocket splines. Snugged the bolt up with a wrench to collapse the spring washers: now the bolt could be used as the base for gear puller. Played with and studied the sprocket movement on the shaft, noting the gaps visible at times between the spline sets; see Photo 4. Rationalized the wear would be the mating spline faces, so forcing the drive sprocket CCW on the shaft by holding the bolt head and moving the sprocket by hand, rotating slightly and pulling outward, until I could feel it “seat” and visually the gaps in the spline surfaces were gone. The washers, as spacers, would allow the sprocket to be pulled outward about ¼”; Photo 5, noting the center punch mark to register the point of the gear puller.

Attached the gear puller, centering the point on the screw on the head of the bolt; Photo 6. This time, after an initial, more modest resistance, the sprocket pulled easily until it reached the bolt head. Removed puller, removed bolt, reinstalled puller and finish removing from the shaft.

As suspected, the center part of the splines in the gear bore were worn with rings of untouched splines at both the inner and outer edges; Photo 7. In my case, the sprocket was not slipping on the shaft. Whether substantially worn or spinning on the drive shaft, one should take care to align the spline remnants to be able to pull the sprocket without shearing metal. Once removed from the drive shaft, one could see substantial red dust and metal particles on the transmission side of the sprocket; Photo 7.

Cleaned up the shaft spline and shoulder using brake cleaner and a wire brush; Photo 8 – before, and Photo 9 - after. Ready for the new sprocket…which is on back order from BRP.

I like how you applied critical thinking in diagnosing the issue. Kudo's!

[tyoder]

I'm thinking that maybe I should pull my sprocket and apply a good quality grease to the splines before it starts to wear. I only have a couple thousand miles on it. Any thoughts?

[ssmcclub]

Is using loctite 648 paste good for replacing red dust new front sprocket?

[fatboy]

tyoder ride more worry less i have over 20000 miles on my 16 f3 no red and i ride the sh t out of it

[ssmcclub]

to get the belt off the front damage red dust gear ,do I have to remove the bottom shock bolt and jack up the rear wheel?