Front end wobble issue. Please help!

[Hilmee]

My 2011 Spyder RT Audio and Convenience recently developed a wobble at various speeds in the front end. It has 24,000 miles on it. It started when I put on new front tires and took if for a ride....it appears one of the tires was bad from the manufacturer and at one point the bike went into an aggressive wobble where I had to hit the breaks to stop it. I returned to the dealer and they put on brand new front tires. They would not further diagnose the issue until I put on a new back tire and new rear shocks as they said it could be causing the front-end wobble. I doubted this was true but paid for it anyways. So now with all new tires and a laser alignment, it still wobbles. It feels like something in the front end was tweaked....like the A-Arms, tie-rods or bushings etc.. The dealer is not helping me so I thought I would check on this forum to see if anyone has had this issue and/or has advice. Thank you so much for any help!

[BajaRon]

Are they OEM Kenda's? If so, that is a 99.9% probability for the source of your issues. Lift the front tires off the ground enough to spin the and see if they are round. Probably not. Look to see how much weight is on your wheels. If it is a lot (or none at all) this too could be part of the problem.

Too bad about the rear tire and shock. That, as you have discovered, was not your problem. It is sad when you can't trust your dealer. The dealer should have to eat that cost as it was a waste of time (unless you needed those improvements anyway).

[Hilmee]

Thanks for the reply BajaRon. Yes they are OEM Kenda tires. They assured me multiple times that the tires on there are perfectly mounted, balanced and laser aligned...plus this is the second set of new front tires. I will still try your suggestion. The wobble is also very inconsistent as to which speed it starts wobbling. It seems to happen more when decelerating. But at normal throttle, the speed to which it starts varies depending on road condition and wind and probably temperature. I notice the wobble anywhere from 35 mph to about 60 mph. When going faster than 60 mph it does not wobble....so if it was a bad out-of-round tire, you'd think the faster it is turning the more violent the wobble/shake. So this is why I was thinking it was something related to A-Arms, bushings or tie-rods.......in that something has some play/slack in it. I am very troubled/confused by this problem and I hope that thoughtful people like you will try to help me at least identify the issue. Then I can hopefully find a dealer that I have trust and confidence in fixing the issue. Thanks again!!!

[ButterSmooth]

With one front wheel lifted off the ground, try aggressively shaking the tire top to bottom and left to right. If there is any clunking or play, watch at the various suspension/tie rod joints to identify the play. It's likely the failed component. On heavier rigs you may have to use a prybar or such to move the tire -- shouldn't be needed on a Spyder. It might be as simple as loose wheel bearings.

[bikerchris1270]

My 2011 Spyder RT Audio and Convenience recently developed a wobble at various speeds in the front end. It has 24,000 miles on it. It started when I put on new front tires and took if for a ride....it appears one of the tires was bad from the manufacturer and at one point the bike went into an aggressive wobble where I had to hit the breaks to stop it. I returned to the dealer and they put on brand new front tires. They would not further diagnose the issue until I put on a new back tire and new rear shocks as they said it could be causing the front-end wobble. I doubted this was true but paid for it anyways. So now with all new tires and a laser alignment, it still wobbles. It feels like something in the front end was tweaked....like the A-Arms, tie-rods or bushings etc.. The dealer is not helping me so I thought I would check on this forum to see if anyone has had this issue and/or has advice. Thank you so much for any help!

Sorry to hear the dealer ( I would like to know who?) was happy to take your money but not willing to accurately diagnose your problem.
To be clear, this started once new tires were installed. The spyder was fine before this.....correct?
So, they put on new Kendas front and rear, aligned front wheels and rear wheel. Hopefully they reset theSAS and Torque sensors using BUDS. Plus, did they bend something jacking it up?
If the above was indeed performed correctly......my thought would be to check front end components for wear/ looseness. Check for tire runout too....Kendas are horrible tires.
I had my F3L aligned last year by Robs Motorsports in Johnson Creek. Something wasn’t right with it when I got it back. I went and purchased the equipment to do alignments myself plus BUDS software......performed the alignment myself.....they had failed to properly square the wheels to the frame.....dog tracking.......my alignment turned out perfectly!
Sorry to say, don’t take their word for gospel. Unfortunately, it sounds like your in a bind.
I’d be asking why they are unwilling to help since it was their suggestion for an rear tir and alignment. I live in Edgerton.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Are they OEM Kenda's? If so, that is 99.9% the source of your issues. Lift the front tires off the ground enough to spin the and see if they are round. Probably not. Look to see how much weight is on your wheels. If it is a lot (or none at all) this too could be part of the problem.

Too bad about the rear tire and shock. That, as you have discovered, was not your problem. It is sad when you can't trust your dealer. The dealer should have to eat that cost as it was a waste of time (unless you needed those improvements anyway).

X's 10 ..... without question Kenda spyder tires have the highest ...DEFECT rate of any tire I have ever heard of..... I agree with all above posters. .... you could reach out BRP and see if they will step-in for you ..... you didn't have the problem and now with new Kenda's you do .... the Stealer may just have washed your " NEW " used Kenda and and claimed it was a different one. Before replacing any other parts get the tire thing solved. .... Consider getting some NEW auto tires, ( the EXACT size isn't necessary ... ask here about what you looking to buy ) and that dealer won't mount them ... take the wheels off and just about any " tire shop " can mount and most likely balance them ..... good luck .... Mike

[BajaRon]

There are other things that could be causing this wobble, as pointed out by others. An inconsistent wobble does not necessarily let the tires off the hook. Both tires may be contributing to the problem. It may be a harmonic thing because as each tire changes phase in relationship to the other side, (as when you go around a turn) the dynamics change. This can affect the severity and speed at which it occurs. Hitting a bump or anomaly in the road can also trigger the wobble, again making it happen at a different speed, etc. Diagnosing issues by email is not ideal. Just giving you things to look for. Process of elimination can work well if done systematically.

[bikerchris1270]

There are other things that could be causing this wobble, as pointed out by others. An inconsistent wobble does not necessarily let the tires off the hook. Both tires may be contributing to the problem. It may be a harmonic thing because as each tire changes phase in relationship to the other side, (as when you go around a turn) the dynamics change. This can affect the severity and speed at which it occurs. Hitting a bump or anomaly in the road can also trigger the wobble, again making it happen at a different speed, etc. Diagnosing issues by email is not ideal. Just giving you things to look for. Process of elimination can work well if done systematically.

Yep, tolerance stack up definitely could be it. Call a friend with the same rim/tire setup,swap tires and take for a ride.

[Hilmee]

Sorry to hear the dealer ( I would like to know who?) was happy to take your money but not willing to accurately diagnose your problem.
To be clear, this started once new tires were installed. The spyder was fine before this.....correct?
So, they put on new Kendas front and rear, aligned front wheels and rear wheel. Hopefully they reset theSAS and Torque sensors using BUDS. Plus, did they bend something jacking it up?
If the above was indeed performed correctly......my thought would be to check front end components for wear/ looseness. Check for tire runout too....Kendas are horrible tires.
I had my F3L aligned last year by Robs Motorsports in Johnson Creek. Something wasn’t right with it when I got it back. I went and purchased the equipment to do alignments myself plus BUDS software......performed the alignment myself.....they had failed to properly square the wheels to the frame.....dog tracking.......my alignment turned out perfectly!
Sorry to say, don’t take their word for gospel. Unfortunately, it sounds like your in a bind.
I’d be asking why they are unwilling to help since it was their suggestion for an rear tir and alignment. I live in Edgerton.

It is Mad City power sports in Madison WI, owned by Vetesnik's. Sounds like the Johnson Creek dealer is not that educated either.....I was thinking of reaching out to another dealer but there just aren't that many around. Vetesnik's in Richland Center is the same family as Mad City but maybe they have better mechanics? It seems Mad City just doesn't have the talent to address this issue....seems like they are "experimenting" and giving me the run-around. I would have thought that a bigger dealer like them would have come across a similar issue in the past and would know how to at least diagnose the issue. I'm afraid if I take it back there they will just start replacing frontend parts one by one and I will be in for a huge bill at the end. There may have been a slight wobble starting with the old tires if memory serves me right...but the new tires did not solve any issues and seemed to get worse. I will try jacking up the front and move things around by hand......maybe I will get lucky to see the issue. Thanks Chris!

[bikerchris1270]

It is Mad City power sports in Madison WI, owned by Vetesnik's. Sounds like the Johnson Creek dealer is not that educated either.....I was thinking of reaching out to another dealer but there just aren't that many around. Vetesnik's in Richland Center is the same family as Mad City but maybe they have better mechanics? It seems Mad City just doesn't have the talent to address this issue....seems like they are "experimenting" and giving me the run-around. I would have thought that a bigger dealer like them would have come across a similar issue in the past and would know how to at least diagnose the issue. I'm afraid if I take it back there they will just start replacing frontend parts one by one and I will be in for a huge bill at the end. There may have been a slight wobble starting with the old tires if memory serves me right...but the new tires did not solve any issues and seemed to get worse. I will try jacking up the front and move things around by hand......maybe I will get lucky to see the issue. Thanks Chris!

Once you have it up in the air.....check the ball joints,tie rod ends and control arm bushing for any play. Check air pressure in tires....17 psi +/- . Also check for play in steering column. You got me curious......let me know.

[Hilmee]

With one front wheel lifted off the ground, try aggressively shaking the tire top to bottom and left to right. If there is any clunking or play, watch at the various suspension/tie rod joints to identify the play. It's likely the failed component. On heavier rigs you may have to use a prybar or such to move the tire -- shouldn't be needed on a Spyder. It might be as simple as loose wheel bearings.

Thanks for the response. I tried exactly what you suggested and everything seems really solid.

[Hilmee]

Once you have it up in the air.....check the ball joints,tie rod ends and control arm bushing for any play. Check air pressure in tires....17 psi +/- . Also check for play in steering column. You got me curious......let me know.

Thanks Chris....I tried your suggestions and everything is really solid...so still stumped...of course this is an untrained eye looking at things. The air pressure is perfect as well.

[ButterSmooth]

Thanks Chris....I tried your suggestions and everything is really solid...so still stumped...of course this is an untrained eye looking at things. The air pressure is perfect as well.

Did you spin the wheels, as suggested in another post, and check for runout (axial and radial) of the tires? It seems we've come full circle and tires are the prime suspect.

[Hilmee]

Did you spin the wheels, as suggested in another post, and check for runout (axial and radial) of the tires? It seems we've come full circle and tires are the prime suspect.

Yeah, I spun the wheels and watched the tread and sidewalls and everything looks really smooth. I am not sure how to properly check for runout with this hand/eye inspection. My old tires had the wobble, and the first set of new tires did not fix it and now this is a brand new set and it still wobbles. So with three sets of tires causing the same wobble, does it seem feasible that something is loose or worn in the front end that does not stand out with hand and eye observation? The dealer swears the tires are perfectly balanced and aligned. Including the laser alignment of front and back wheels. There is no play in the steering. Maybe I should just take it to another dealer for a diagnosis and see what they come up with? Thank you so much for the feedback and helping me figure this out.

[ButterSmooth]

Yeah, I spun the wheels and watched the tread and sidewalls and everything looks really smooth. I am not sure how to properly check for runout with this hand/eye inspection. My old tires had the wobble, and the first set of new tires did not fix it and now this is a brand new set and it still wobbles. So with three sets of tires causing the same wobble, does it seem feasible that something is loose or worn in the front end that does not stand out with hand and eye observation? The dealer swears the tires are perfectly balanced and aligned. Including the laser alignment of front and back wheels. There is no play in the steering. Maybe I should just take it to another dealer for a diagnosis and see what they come up with? Thank you so much for the feedback and helping me figure this out.

This is further out there, but it could be something like swing arm bushings or rear wheel bearings. My impression is that you're feeling it in the bars -- is that correct?

The other thing that occurs to me is the possibility of severe belt vibration. I've always felt most of the belt vibration in the bars, while others have posted that they feel it in the floor boards. I changed out the front Kendas because of this vibration, and the new tires reduced, but didn't remove it completely. The Kendas did seem to amplify the belt vibration. When I got the belt mostly squared away, the chattering bars were gone too (with car tires). The belt vibration is a thing that comes and goes. It's not just at a fixed speed, but more of a set of conditions: Same speed and incline (load). Mine has a slight vibration at 75 mph (straight and flat), but it appears at 65 mph on an uphill. Now it is a minor annoyance, but with the poorly balanced Kendas, it was much worse.

[Peter Aawen]

Yeah, I spun the wheels and watched the tread and sidewalls and everything looks really smooth. I am not sure how to properly check for runout with this hand/eye inspection. My old tires had the wobble, and the first set of new tires did not fix it and now this is a brand new set and it still wobbles. So with three sets of tires causing the same wobble, does it seem feasible that something is loose or worn in the front end that does not stand out with hand and eye observation? The dealer swears the tires are perfectly balanced and aligned. Including the laser alignment of front and back wheels. There is no play in the steering. Maybe I should just take it to another dealer for a diagnosis and see what they come up with? Thank you so much for the feedback and helping me figure this out.

Perfect balance & alignment means absofreakinlutely diddly squat if you're talking about something that's not round &/or running true to start with!! It's only beneficial if those things aren't causing wobbles or vibrations regardless of how well it's balanced or aligned to start with!! And then there's the question of 'who's version of perfect?' - that of the dealer, who's tech might occasionally get to do a balance using a machine that may or may not be well calibrated, &/or who's never done anything but use an outdated & proven inadequate version of a factory alignment, with all the scope for errors that lot brings; or the 'perfect' of a mob who do these balances & alignments all day every day using highly trained & skilled techs working with state of the art & frequently checked/calibrated machinery?? There's 'perfectly balanced & aligned' iaw the lowest common denominator, there's everything in between, and then there's 'truly perfectly balanced & aligned' iaw those highly trained & skilled techs using proven & benchmarked 'World's best' machinery & practices' - which of fhose three do you reckon is the best reflection of your dealer's 'perfect'??

If you can get a wheel in the air & you are still agile enough to then get a reasonably useful eye down close to it, you can relatively easily do a rudimentary 'roundness & run-out' check with a jack & anything heavy with a solid straight edge that you can sit up close to the tread surface &/or the sidewall of the tire as it spins!! (A brick comes to mind, altho a dial gauge stand, gauge, & probe would be a lot better - just not essential! ) You just need to lift the wheel enough to let it spin, then slide that something solid with its straight edge in/under & up reeeaaallll close to the tread - as close as you can get it without impeding the spin - then spin the tire and closely watch the gap between tread & straight edge.... does it change any? If not, then the tire is reasonably round, but if you think the gap varies AT ALL, then there's likely a 'roundness' problem worth checking! If your 'not moving' solid straight edge actually HITS the spinning tire then you've REALLY got an 'out of round' problem!! And regardless either of those results, close variable gap or actual hit/stop, will mean you'll have a wobble/vibration as you ride that you just can't get rid of, no matter how well you balance the wheels or align the steering!

You can due the same for 'run-out' or 'true' simply by sliding your straight edge up reeeeaaalll close to the sidewall (you should probably even do it on each sidewall to be sure! ) and then closely watch the gap - any variation on either side means the tire isn't going to be running the tread straight down the road as it rotates while you ride; but if you started with a gap, no matter how imperceptible, then just as with the 'out of round' test, any actual touching/stopping means it's REALLY bad!! Regardless, in either case to some degree it'll likely be causing wobbling at low riding speeds and vibrations at higher speeds, with an increasing wobble/vibration under brakes that gets worse as you stop harder!! Normally, these wobbles/vibrations are quite noticeable, altho they might juuust be detectable as something you think could possibly be coming from the belt at a given speed, which is why so many get caught up in that being the problem when it's really the tires; but as others have mentioned, the belts/belt tension &/or worn cush-bushe s in the drive cog can definitely produce that 'belt vibration' on their lonesome too!

Still n'all, it is possible that, especially on an older Spyder &/or especially on something that's towed a lot, it could well be something like a worn swing arm, worn swing arm bushes, or worn rear wheel bushes too. But those rudimentary Run-out & roundness checks are fairly easy to do, so I'd do them BEFORE starting searching elsewhere!! And I'd NEVER take just ONE Dealer's diagnosis as being infallible, especially if there's some relatively simple tests you can do yourself to confirm/deny that diagnosis!!

Good Luck!

[Hilmee]

Pete thank you so much for the thoughtful and detailed reply. Especially describing how to test for runout and roundness. I plan to check that this week and can report back later in the week. You rock!

[Hilmee]

This is further out there, but it could be something like swing arm bushings or rear wheel bearings. My impression is that you're feeling it in the bars -- is that correct?

The other thing that occurs to me is the possibility of severe belt vibration. I've always felt most of the belt vibration in the bars, while others have posted that they feel it in the floor boards. I changed out the front Kendas because of this vibration, and the new tires reduced, but didn't remove it completely. The Kendas did seem to amplify the belt vibration. When I got the belt mostly squared away, the chattering bars were gone too (with car tires). The belt vibration is a thing that comes and goes. It's not just at a fixed speed, but more of a set of conditions: Same speed and incline (load). Mine has a slight vibration at 75 mph (straight and flat), but it appears at 65 mph on an uphill. Now it is a minor annoyance, but with the poorly balanced Kendas, it was much worse.

Thanks for the feedback. This is definitely not a vibration and I don't really feel any vibrations at all speeds. It is a wobble of the front end at times to the point where the back of the fenders are wobbling like crazy as well as feeling the front of the bike and steering jolt around. I either can speed up through it or hit the brakes and then start accelerating again. When decelerating for a stop sign or turn, this sucks because you just have to deal with that portion of the slowdown that has the wobbles. I've got some good feedback to check the roundness and runout of the tires so that seems like an easy thing to do and will do that this week. Thanks again!

[ButterSmooth]

Thanks for the feedback. This is definitely not a vibration and I don't really feel any vibrations at all speeds. It is a wobble of the front end at times to the point where the back of the fenders are wobbling like crazy as well as feeling the front of the bike and steering jolt around. I either can speed up through it or hit the brakes and then start accelerating again. When decelerating for a stop sign or turn, this sucks because you just have to deal with that portion of the slowdown that has the wobbles. I've got some good feedback to check the roundness and runout of the tires so that seems like an easy thing to do and will do that this week. Thanks again!

That sounds like my dad's old Studebaker truck with worn out kingpins. HA!

[askitee]

My '17 RTL was determined to use all of the lane and some of the neighbouring lane wandering when it was at its worst.

I after a spat with the service manager I booked it in, they spent 30 days on it, repeatedly telling me "buds says its ok" Buds couldn't tell the mechanic that it had a failed ball joint after the salesman asked them had they checked them. They replaced it and a sensor in the front and it made a world of difference. I later took it to another dealership who did the wheel alignment properly and I came home on a very different bike to the one I delivered.

In summary

• Ball joints failed/worn
• Kenda Tyres
• Badly done wheel alignment
• Incorrectly assembled suspension component
• Loose wheel nuts
• Wheel bearing on their way out

s

[BajaRon]

My '17 RTL was determined to use all of the lane and some of the neighbouring lane wandering when it was at its worst.

I after a spat with the service manager I booked it in, they spent 30 days on it, repeatedly telling me "buds says its ok" Buds couldn't tell the mechanic that it had a failed ball joint after the salesman asked them had they checked them. They replaced it and a sensor in the front and it made a world of difference. I later took it to another dealership who did the wheel alignment properly and I came home on a very different bike to the one I delivered.

In summary

• Ball joints failed/worn
• Kenda Tyres
• Badly done wheel alignment
• Incorrectly assembled suspension component
• Loose wheel nuts
• Wheel bearing on their way out

s

Wow! Your list pretty much covers just about everything that can go wrong with the front end of a Spyder! Hitting all the bases is only a good thing in baseball! Otherwise, not so much!

[BajaRon]

This is further out there, but it could be something like swing arm bushings or rear wheel bearings. My impression is that you're feeling it in the bars -- is that correct?

Though A-Arm bushings can definitely cause a front end wobble (similar to warped rotors). It's always associated with applying the brakes, in my experience. I didn't mention this possibility because the OP seems to be describing the problem as occurring without applying the brakes.

It will be interesting to see what actually cures this one. I suspicion it will be a combination of the criminally lousy Kenda tires and alignment. Second on the list being bad ball joints. But it could certainly be something entirely different.

It is somewhat fun to speculate. Except when it's YOUR ride!

[T.P.]

HILMEE you and BIKERCHRIS are only 35 miles apart, I suggest to have BC take a look and a ride on it.
He may be able to figure it out.

T.P.

[Hilmee]

My '17 RTL was determined to use all of the lane and some of the neighbouring lane wandering when it was at its worst.

I after a spat with the service manager I booked it in, they spent 30 days on it, repeatedly telling me "buds says its ok" Buds couldn't tell the mechanic that it had a failed ball joint after the salesman asked them had they checked them. They replaced it and a sensor in the front and it made a world of difference. I later took it to another dealership who did the wheel alignment properly and I came home on a very different bike to the one I delivered.

In summary

• Ball joints failed/worn
• Kenda Tyres
• Badly done wheel alignment
• Incorrectly assembled suspension component
• Loose wheel nuts
• Wheel bearing on their way out

s

Thanks askitee! Mine does not stray from side to side like a pull or drift you get in a car sometimes...it stays straight as an arrow and then will start to wobble during certain speeds up and down. I am thinking ball joints may be an easy try first...then maybe wheel bearings should be checked. I will also manually check the axial and radial run out this weekend as suggested in here. If I figure it out I will certainly post back the solution(s) so we can help others. Thanks to all!

[bikerchris1270]

HILMEE you and BIKERCHRIS are only 35 miles apart, I suggest to have BC take a look and a ride on it.
He may be able to figure it out.

T.P.

I’m open to looking at it…….I live in Edgerton……pm me if ya want a second set of eyes. I have BUDS and laser alignment setup.