DIY laser alignment - correcting dealer foul up

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

In the fall of 2019 just before my extended warranty ran out I got the local dealer to replace the steering column on my 2014 RTS. The handlebar had developed a fair amount of loose play so BRP OK'd a replacement. I don't know what the dealer did and did not do, but when I got it back and rode it a time or two (before end of riding season) everything seemed fine. Then last year was a complicated year for me and I didn't get to ride much. I felt there was something just not quite right with the steering. My arms and elbows hurt after a ride. Finally, at the end of the summer I discovered the handlebar was not square with the Spyder. The left grip was about 1 1/2" closer to the dash than was the right grip. I haven't been able to find a good picture of the steering column to see what the spline configuration at the ends are. But I wonder if the tech put it together one spline off of straight in line. So I decided to first do a laser alignment and make adjustments in the tie rods to see if I can square up the handlebar. There is no laser alignment shop within about 500 miles of me so I'm going to do it myself.

This is my story of what I am doing. I'll discuss what I've done so far and then add more as I get it done.

I decided the easiest way to get a good flat surface to mount the lasers to was to remove the front tires and attach the lasers to the brake rotors. I don't know if it's still the case but the original factory alignment method uses the brake rotors, not the wheels. I used spacers and replaced the lug nuts to hold the rotor tight to the hub. The lasers are Pittsburgh brand from Harbor Freight. They're not the best and brightest but the price is right, $20 each, and good enough for now. The magnets don't hold them tight so I used a 1/4-20 screw through the rotor into the laser mounting thread to hold the lasers tight to the rotors. I'm using some jerry rigged targets that are working OK.

The first three pics show the struts sitting on the blocks and the lasers mounted to the rotors.

Left Front 1.jpg

Right Front 1.jpg

Right Front 2.jpg

These pics show shining straight down. You need these lines to determine what the track width between the lasers is. That is the distance that you base the spacing between the targets behind and in front of the wheels to set the toe-in. As you can see in my case it is 58 1/8". I later marked on the floor as close as I could using a level where the center of the wheel is. You need that point so you can the targets the same distance behind and in front of the wheels. That simply makes calculating the required distances easier. Here is one case where the Rolo system is much, much, better! The Rolo puts the laser in line with the center of the wheel so when you rotate it downward and plumb, you know exactly where on the floor the center of the wheel is.

Left Track 2.jpg

Right Track.jpg

Wheel Centerline mark.jpg

The next step was to set the handlebar square to the centerline of the Spyder. I measured from the end of the grip to the ends of the dash and set the handlebar so that both ends were the same. Riding experience has shown that is the most comfortable cross-wise position for the handlebar. Here is another case where having the Spyder on blocks without the wheels made things easier. You can easily turn the handlebar and not have to fight the resistance between the tires and the floor.

Handlebar 1.jpg

Handlebar 2.jpg

These pics show the laser line on the rear targets with the handlebar set square. The targets are set 29 1/16" from the centerline of the rear tire. LaMont sets his targets from the rim but I find this is easier and I don't need to be concerned what the real width of the rim is. The tire tread is symmetrical and the center is easy to figure out. In the first pic the vertical line is hard to see as it is about 1 1/4" outboard of the target line and off the tape. In the second pic the line is about 1" inboard of the target. This means both front wheels are angled to the left and the toe-in is about 1/4" over the 80" distance from the wheel center. This is as far as I have gotten for now. I'll need to review LaMont's video to see what his recommendation is for toe-in and adjust it for the 80" distance. I think he uses 76" fore and aft for the targets.

Target RL.jpg

Target RR.jpg

[Cobwebs]

Your crab will soon be a guided missile.Did you check your lasers for equal alignment.Mine have a screw adjustment to get the dots hitting the same spot over a long distance.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Your crab will soon be a guided missile.Did you check your lasers for equal alignment.Mine have a screw adjustment to get the dots hitting the same spot over a long distance.

Yes I did. There is no adjustment built in. Attached bottom to bottom and on a hard smooth steel plate side by side, the best I could determine was there was about a 1/8" divergence over about 7'. That's why I said close enough! The body of these lasers is not absolutely rigid so any kind of force to clamp them together tended to distort them a bit. But really good laser levels are at least $50 apiece and since I wasn't sure what I was going to run into I didn't want to spend that much money. If everything works out good I may opt for much better lasers and targets and redo it all. What I could have, and probably should have if I would have thought about it sooner, was take a short 1/4-20 all thread and screw the two laser together bottom to bottom. But that will work only if they will snug together in line with each other and there's no guarantee that will happen.

[Jetfixer]

You are on the right track. I built my own laser alignment equipment following this recommendation:
http://www.lindsayroland.com/spyder/spyderwheels.html

I swapped out the stock wheels and tires for Can Am Blade wheels and Continental Conti Pro Contact tires the minute I got home with my 2020 RTL (40 miles from dealer). I immediately realigned my Spyder using this equipment. I now have over 9500 miles on these tires and they have only worn 1/32" from new. The bike handles like a dream. Just make sure your lasers are true, even if they're not able to be calibrated. If they are off, figure out how much they are off and adjust for that. If you want to be dead on exact, repeat the above procedures going in front of the bike too.

[Cobwebs]

Quick vid for anyone getting into this on how to check your lasers accuracy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2NXd-6SPgY

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Quick vid for anyone getting into this on how to check your lasers accuracy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2NXd-6SPgY

Here's a comment I just posted to that video.

Unfortunately, there is a potential problem with your second method. It is a valid check only if both lasers are exactly parallel to the bottom of the level. If both are off by the same exact amount in the same direction, unlikely but possible, then they will put the light spot in the same place. It would be more accurate to attach the levels to each other, bottom to bottom, measure the distance between the beams near the level and then some distance from the level. If they are perfectly parallel to the bottom of the level the spread between the two will be constant.

I just did that with my lasers. I decided I really needed to check them closer because when I measured the beam spread in front of the Spyder it was about 1/4" wider than the track, compared to 1/2" wider at the rear. The front spread should be less than the track width the same distance as the rear spread is greater so I knew something was pretty fishy. So checked the lasers again. I made more effort to make sure the bottoms were snug to each other without distorting the level. The divergence between the beams was about 1" in 20'. The beam space was 2 5/8" at the lasers and 3 5/8" at 20 feet. That works out to be about 0.65" over the 160" from rear target to front target.

I just did another test. It looks like I need to dump the Harbor Freight lasers. They just aren't stable and accurate enough. I took a good solid steel plate and anchored it vertically on a table. Then I attached both lasers, one on each side directly opposite each other. Now I get a divergence of 3" over 20'. The beam spread was 2 7/8" at the lasers and 5 7/8" at 20'.

So off to Amazon and ToolTopia and who knows where all to see what I can find for a decent laser level. I'm going to have to cave in and spend $50+ each for two. Maybe HF will take these back if I cry and complain enough. Suppose?

I'll have to get back to this project when I get some new lasers. Unfortunately the local big box store don't stock any.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

You are on the right track. I built my own laser alignment equipment following this recommendation:
http://www.lindsayroland.com/spyder/spyderwheels.html

One minor concern I have with that system is that it will be difficult to get all three of the legs of the plate exactly the same height, i.e., within 0.001" to 0.005" of each other. A 0.005" variation in the leg height could lead to about 0.2" error in the beam spacing and toe-in. Probably not enough to get wrapped around the axle about, but it could be there.

[PMK]

Suggest that before getting to the technical setup, verify the steering is mechanically centered.
As for alignment, suggested is based with weight on wheels. 1” total toe.

[Cobwebs]

Here's a comment I just posted to that video.



I just did that with my lasers. I decided I really needed to check them closer because when I measured the beam spread in front of the Spyder it was about 1/4" wider than the track, compared to 1/2" wider at the rear. The front spread should be less than the track width the same distance as the rear spread is greater so I knew something was pretty fishy. So checked the lasers again. I made more effort to make sure the bottoms were snug to each other without distorting the level. The divergence between the beams was about 1" in 20'. The beam space was 2 5/8" at the lasers and 3 5/8" at 20 feet. That works out to be about 0.65" over the 160" from rear target to front target.

I just did another test. It looks like I need to dump the Harbor Freight lasers. They just aren't stable and accurate enough. I took a good solid steel plate and anchored it vertically on a table. Then I attached both lasers, one on each side directly opposite each other. Now I get a divergence of 3" over 20'. The beam spread was 2 7/8" at the lasers and 5 7/8" at 20'.

So off to Amazon and ToolTopia and who knows where all to see what I can find for a decent laser level. I'm going to have to cave in and spend $50+ each for two. Maybe HF will take these back if I cry and complain enough. Suppose?

I'll have to get back to this project when I get some new lasers. Unfortunately the local big box store don't stock any.

Yeah probably ok for hanging pictures etc as they are.Unless you could shim the low end somehow to get it closer.
These are the ones I use. Had to get them from UK though back when you measured in days the delivery times not months like now
They have the adjuster wheel to screw up and down to get it accurate, still cheapies in the scheme of things but amazed me the difference to the bikes handling once done regardless.
https://www.bing.com/aclick?ld=e8-re...5638c7af&ntb=1

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Yeah probably ok for hanging pictures etc as they are.Unless you could shim the low end somehow to get it closer.
These are the ones I use. Had to get them from UK though back when you measured in days the delivery times not months like now
They have the adjuster wheel to screw up and down to get it accurate, still cheapies in the scheme of things but amazed me the difference to the bikes handling once done regardless.

When it comes to hanging pictures I don't hang them all the same height, too boring! And I can hardly believe myself how well I can level a picture by eyeballing it. Don't need a level for pics!!

I just ordered two of this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1. They seem to be fairly popular with dealers, have some decent reviews, and Amazon has an amazing return policy if they don't work out. Instead of 5 to 7 days for free shipping sometimes it's only a couple of days if they're in a nearby fulfillment center.

[Cobwebs]

When it comes to hanging pictures I don't hang them all the same height, too boring! And I can hardly believe myself how well I can level a picture by eyeballing it. Don't need a level for pics!!

Geez Idaho are you sure you don't work on the tie rod install station at the Spyder factory ?

[K80Shooter]

When it comes to hanging pictures I don't hang them all the same height, too boring! And I can hardly believe myself how well I can level a picture by eyeballing it. Don't need a level for pics!!

I just ordered two of this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1. They seem to be fairly popular with dealers, have some decent reviews, and Amazon has an amazing return policy if they don't work out. Instead of 5 to 7 days for free shipping sometimes it's only a couple of days if they're in a nearby fulfillment center.

Let us know how those work out, being they are Johnson they should be good to go.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Geez Idaho are you sure you don't work on the tie rod install station at the Spyder factory ?

So that's where I go when I dream! I wondered!

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Let us know how those work out, being they are Johnson they should be good to go.

Just got a shipping notice from Amazon. Supposed be here Tuesday, and that is with 5 day free shipping! Must be coming from the new 650,000 square foot fulfillment center 30 miles down the road.

[Jetfixer]

One minor concern I have with that system is that it will be difficult to get all three of the legs of the plate exactly the same height, i.e., within 0.001" to 0.005" of each other. A 0.005" variation in the leg height could lead to about 0.2" error in the beam spacing and toe-in. Probably not enough to get wrapped around the axle about, but it could be there.

I used calipers to set the legs as exact as possible...

[SNOOPY]

Things have changed around here, I remember a few years back when people showed how to do this yourself the threads would shut down and disappear. Like my thread back around 2014. Lol Nice to see we are allowed to share things now.

[Eckhard]

One minor concern I have with that system is that it will be difficult to get all three of the legs of the plate exactly the same height, i.e., within 0.001" to 0.005" of each other. A 0.005" variation in the leg height could lead to about 0.2" error in the beam spacing and toe-in. Probably not enough to get wrapped around the axle about, but it could be there.

I would be more concerned with the plate where the laser attaches being flat enough even though it is mounted at 3 points which is a nominally "stress free" configuration.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Got my Johnson laser levels today and promptly set about to verify their accuracy. Here's the set up I used to check how close to parallel the beam is to the bottom of the level. Since the magnets on the bottom prevent directly attaching the level to each other I used the steel ruler of a combination square. This attaches the levels with the bottom dead on parallel to each other.

Johnson laser beam spread test set up.jpg

Then I measured the spread between the beams near the lasers. You can see they are right at 1 5/32".

Johnson lasers close beam spread.jpg

At the wall about 20' away the beam spread is 1 1/8" which means the divergence is only about 1/32" to 1/16" over 20 feet. I say that's plenty close enough! And a whole lot better than the HF levels were. HF took them back and gave me full credit so I sure can't complain about their customer service!

Johnson lasers far beam spread.jpg

I'll get back to the alignment project tomorrow. Today I finished flushing the brake system. I'll make comments about that in my thread about brake fluid quantity.

[PMK]

I had a look at your previous photos.

In one of them, the laser was mounted above the axle, and in the other it was below the axle. While that should not be critical, it is important that each laser is absolutely level when projecting to the targets.

FWIW, be very aware of the accuracy and tolerances. With suggested total toe of 1”, that equates to 1/4” per target. An error of 1/16” is a misalignment of 25%.

[PinkRosePetal]

It's good to see another DIY approach! Well done you.

However, it's essential that the laser beams are parallel to the floor. If they are not, any variation in wheel camber will affect the convergence of the beam. It's also essential because any misalignment of the wheels will be subject to some caster and since toe-in is misalignment it will affect your outcome.

If you're using distance measurements you need to settle on a datum for that measurement, BRP stipulates the toe in degrees so gives no basis for measurement. I use the wheel rim diameter since it's easy and repeatable.

If you have a long target wider than the track width it's easy to measure the toe. Have it at any distance infront of your Spyder and square to the bike's axis, mark your laser dots/lines on the target, move your target away from the Spyder by the wheel rim diameter (or your preferred datum), align one of your marks with the laser beam and your toe is the difference between the other laser beam and your other mark. It sounds complicated when writing but it's simple in practise.
Here's a picture to show the system.

It doesn't matter at what distance your targets are from the Spyder, the difference in measurement at datum will always be the same.
If you have difficulty in measuring because the toe distance is small, it's perfectly fine to double or triple your datum distance, always remembering of course your toe measurement will be equally enlarged so you need to correct that.

[PinkRosePetal]

I've separated this post from the previous one because it addresses the issue of aligning the front wheels to the rear wheel rather than aligning to the chassis centre line.

Since when running along the road your rear wheel will steer the bike until the rear wheel is running in the direction of travel it makes little difference to the bike which datum you use when setting your toe measurement.

The only difference, if BUDS is used to set the steering after the toe is set, is in the angle of the handlebars and the steering arm.

If your rear wheel happened to be perfectly in line with the chassis, as it should ideally be, then there will be no rear wheel steering at all. However, road camber will run the bike down hill on the camber so in practise there will likely always be some misalignment.

Note from the drawings below how the bike is guaranteed to be running slightly sideways if the rear wheel is not parallel to the chassis.
Obviously, in the drawing, rear wheel misalignment is exaggerated to clearly show the effect it has on the chassis angle.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

The only difference, if BUDS is used to set the steering after the toe is set, is in the angle of the handlebars and the steering arm.

If your rear wheel happened to be perfectly in line with the chassis, as it should ideally be, then there will be no rear wheel steering at all. However, road camber will run the bike down hill on the camber so in practise there will likely always be some misalignment.

Correct. In his video about laser alignment Lamont says, as has Joe Meyer also, it's important to check the rear belt tracking. I'm sure this is based on the assumption that the engine and transmission will be in line with the chassis so the tire will also be in alignment if the belt tracks properly.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I had a look at your previous photos.

In one of them, the laser was mounted above the axle, and in the other it was below the axle. While that should not be critical, it is important that each laser is absolutely level when projecting to the targets.

FWIW, be very aware of the accuracy and tolerances. With suggested total toe of 1”, that equates to 1/4” per target. An error of 1/16” is a misalignment of 25%.

It's good to see another DIY approach! Well done you.

However, it's essential that the laser beams are parallel to the floor. If they are not, any variation in wheel camber will affect the convergence of the beam. It's also essential because any misalignment of the wheels will be subject to some caster and since toe-in is misalignment it will affect your outcome.

If you're using distance measurements you need to settle on a datum for that measurement, BRP stipulates the toe in degrees so gives no basis for measurement. I use the wheel rim diameter since it's easy and repeatable.

Thanks for the kind words. We need to keep in mind that the alignment process is not an exercise in "exactitude", but rather one of "close enough". Owner experience has demonstrated that a toe-in of about 1" over 76" fore and aft gives a good steering experience. My toe-in this past year was only about 1/2" and my RT tracked rather well. Lamont, in his video, discusses 1" to 1 1/4" so that affirms that toe-in setting does not have to be exact. With this in mind PMK, I would argue that the laser does not have to be exactly level, but should be close. But your comment made me think about the influence of camber. I then I read Pink's comment about it, so I decided to see just how much of a factor it really is. As you can see in these two pics it's not much. I put one laser at the top of the disk and the other at the bottom.

Left camber check.jpg

Right camber check.jpg

I was thinking of using a correction factor for the forward and rearward beam spreads, but I think I will just attach the levels at the lower part of the brake disk. PMK, what you saw was one laser being used for forward and rearward projections. The HF level magnets weren't strong enough to keep them secure so I put a screw into them through the disk and then rotated the disk. I had completely forgotten about camber. The magnets on the Johnson lasers are much stronger so I think pulling, rotating, and replacing them will work OK.

As for Pink's comment about being parallel to the floor the requirement is more like the laser needs to perpendicular to the vertical axis of the camber. But here also, close is good enough since we don't know exactly what that vertical axis is. And then there is the influence of caster. So nothing about wheel alignment is exact, just close!

Well, I need to get ready to get my second Covid shot so I'll get back to this later.

[TIMMB]

One of the most important things when you're doing this is your targets being set up perfectly on parallel squared lines. I bought the dealer set up which is not affordable to most people. It will never pay for itself. I've always done everything myself. They're a lot of good videos on it even if you're not using the factory system great explanations of how it gets done. The principal is the same. Mine is 150 inch by 75 inch rectangle with the front hubs centered at 75 in. Sean smokes and lamonster have both shown this system on YouTube videos true laser track is the system.

[Cobwebs]

So nothing about wheel alignment is exact, just close!

It's easy to get into all the variances especially if you have precision instruments like the Rolo gear but my shadetree experience is as long as it eliminates all the wandering,shakes, pulling one way or the other and evens out tyre wear you have mission accomplished.
No two roads are the same, different weights, tyres, riding styles, ambient temperatures, wet/dry all have small input to the total outcome but we don't chase that fine a line for everyday use.
I've tried different settings and couldn't tell the difference (perhaps my backside is tone deaf ) unlike the first alignment which was immediately noticeable to me and my passenger.