Has anyone experienced a hard to crank (turn engine over on starter). The problem is the worst when the engine is warm. If I sit and let it idle to where the fan comes on it occasionally will not crank at all. I initially thought it was the battery as it was more than three years old, so I replaced the battery. Replacing the battery did not help the problem. Presently the battery is less than 2 years old A few days ago it left me stranded, after sitting in a line at a bank drive through where the fan was on much of the time. Prior to this long idle, I had just ridden 20 miles at an average speed of over 35 miles per hour with only two stoplights. I had shut down about 3 minutes after a pretty long idle in the bank drive through. About 10 minutes later when I tried to restart it would not crank even once. An Uber trip home and return with my car and a charger and DC to AC rectifier. I disconnected the battery and put it on charge, at only 2 amps. After less than 30 minutes the charger showed 95% charged. This indicates to me that the battery is not the problem. I reconnected the battery and started the bike. While the engine was no longer hot it was still warm and the cranking was like the starter was turning a very heavy load. As soon as it cranks, even one turn the engine starts. My suspicion is that the starter has a short that gets worse with elevated temperature. What confuses me is that when cranking a cold engine, sometime it still cranks hard. If I have fast idled (2500 RPM) the engine for 15 to 30 seconds prior to shut down or placed the battery on charge for 30 minutes between shut down and restart. it cranks great. These last symptoms make it sound like a battery or charging system problem.
Checking the cranking and charging voltage both when it's working and when it's not may provide some insight. You've probably entered that mystery land where more than one thing is wrong and diagnosis becomes more difficult. It sounds like you have a good understanding of how things work, so you've probably got a better shot of figuring it out than a dealer's tech. They'll get it fixed, but with a shotgun approach and many dollars.
Head in the game, eyes down the road... 2020RT
Spyder Tryke Pylot
I made my living as a tech rep on gas turbines and related equipment, so this type of thing is not unfamiliar. The problem is God has blessed me with 82 + years of life and my mind is not so swift. Your post reminded me to check voltage and amperage. I had failed to think of this. Thank you.
My guess is that the starter is going out. It may be getting hot from the engine heat and when it cools down it goes back to working. I'm not saying replace the starter but I would have it checked.
Let us know the battery voltage before a crank and after a crank. Anything else you find or see would be very helpful.
Keep us posted. Good Luck on Your Mission. .......
ENJOY YOUR LIFE WITH A SPYDER
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Let us know the battery voltage before a crank and after a crank. Anything else you find or see would be very helpful.
Keep us posted. Good Luck on Your Mission. .......
I appreciate the input. I took voltage readings today. All readings were taken at the battery terminals. ( I just bought my VOM (Volt ohm meter). We recently moved to a home with a single car garage and I gave my tools to my son) I am disappointed, it uses only whole numbers, no decimals. Voltage with ignition off was 12 Volts on my meter and 12.7 volts using my battery charger. With ignition turned on the battery voltage drops to 11 volts on my digital VOM. When cranking the voltage drops to 9 volts. This is with the engine cold and the first crank attempt. Start was fully normal. With the engine running the battery voltage was 13 volts regardless of engine speed.
Took roughly a 30 minute ride at a probable average of 25 to 30 mph. Shut engine down and cranking was only slightly harder. Voltage at battery only dropped to 9 volts. Shut down and Restarted engine numerous times. Each time the starter had more difficulty turning over the engine. It finally heated the starter to the point it would no longer crank the engine. At this point the battery voltage dropped to 8 volts when cranking.
Ground and starter solenoid terminals were inspected and no looseness nor corrosion was found. In my mind this is sounding more like a charging or possibly battery problem. THe battery was bchanged less than two years ago when this problem began. It did not improve the problem.
All of those voltages sound low to me, implying the current draw is high, or the battery is not capable of supplying the required current. The low charging voltage (I'm used to seeing 14-14.5 volts) might indicate shorted plates in the battery. I've never seen cranking voltage drop to 8 or 9 volts. That could be a short in the starter or insufficient battery capacity.
Tomorrow, I'm going to take some voltage measurements on my Spyder, both to help (hopefully) you and to give me a future reference, in case I encounter problems at some point. I'm especially curious about the charging voltage.
In the two years you've had that battery, has it ever been completely discharged? Does it live on a tender when you're not riding? Batteries don't seem to last or tolerate abuse like the old days. Well treated, I rarely get 5 years out of an AGM battery. The shortest battery life I've gotten is about 2 years. A complete discharge can be disaster to a battery, frequently cutting it's remaining life in half.
I'll let you know what I find out.
Head in the game, eyes down the road... 2020RT
Spyder Tryke Pylot
All of those voltages sound low to me, implying the current draw is high, or the battery is not capable of supplying the required current. The low charging voltage (I'm used to seeing 14-14.5 volts) might indicate shorted plates in the battery. I've never seen cranking voltage drop to 8 or 9 volts. That could be a short in the starter or insufficient battery capacity.
Tomorrow, I'm going to take some voltage measurements on my Spyder, both to help (hopefully) you and to give me a future reference, in case I encounter problems at some point. I'm especially curious about the charging voltage.
In the two years you've had that battery, has it ever been completely discharged? Does it live on a tender when you're not riding? Batteries don't seem to last or tolerate abuse like the old days. Well treated, I rarely get 5 years out of an AGM battery. The shortest battery life I've gotten is about 2 years. A complete discharge can be disaster to a battery, frequently cutting it's remaining life in half.
I'll let you know what I find out.
Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. No I don't keep it on a tender. I live in south Florida and ride year around. I put this battery in two yeas ago because this same problem was occurring. The new battery changed nothing. Lately it has been getting worse. Never been fully discharged. The voltages sounded low to me also, but I have no knowledge of voltage drops on a Spyder when cranking. What concerned me was the 12 volts while sitting static. Because my meter only uses whole numbers My readings might be close to a volt lower than actual, but even 13 volts is low for a 12 volt battery sitting static. If the start voltage is low the starter will pull higher amps which would cause the starter to heat. The next step will be to have the battery load tested. Might just wait to see your results.
Voltage should be within following specification. DC VOLTAGE OUTPUT TEST TEST ENGINE SPEED VOLTAGE 4000 RPM 13.5 - 14.5 Vdc TEST RESULTS VOLTAGE WHAT TO DO Within specification Complete inspection with the DC CURRENT OUTPUT TEST . Significantly above specification Replace alternator. Exceeds 16 Vdc – The RED battery indicator light will come on in the multifunction gauge. – The HIGH BATT VOLT fault message will be displayed. Does not increase or drops Turn engine OFF and check the following: – Alternator connectors are clean, corrosion free, and properly connected. – 10 amp alternator fuse (F3) in the left hand fuse box. Refer to POWER DISTRIBUTION AND GROUNDSsubsection. – Connection condition at battery posts. – Alternator mounting surfaces are clean, corrosion free and alternator is properly secured
BATTERY LOAD TEST BATTERY VOLTAGE WHILE CRANKING 10 Vdc minimum
I appreciate the input. I took voltage readings today. All readings were taken at the battery terminals. ( I just bought my VOM (Volt ohm meter). We recently moved to a home with a single car garage and I gave my tools to my son) I am disappointed, it uses only whole numbers, no decimals. Voltage with ignition off was 12 Volts on my meter and 12.7 volts using my battery charger. With ignition turned on the battery voltage drops to 11 volts on my digital VOM. When cranking the voltage drops to 9 volts. This is with the engine cold and the first crank attempt. Start was fully normal. With the engine running the battery voltage was 13 volts regardless of engine speed.
Took roughly a 30 minute ride at a probable average of 25 to 30 mph. Shut engine down and cranking was only slightly harder. Voltage at battery only dropped to 9 volts. Shut down and Restarted engine numerous times. Each time the starter had more difficulty turning over the engine. It finally heated the starter to the point it would no longer crank the engine. At this point the battery voltage dropped to 8 volts when cranking.
Ground and starter solenoid terminals were inspected and no looseness nor corrosion was found. In my mind this is sounding more like a charging or possibly battery problem. THe battery was bchanged less than two years ago when this problem began. It did not improve the problem.
This might be a bit longer than you strictly need to get the idea, wanderingman, but in the interest of better explaining it to those who might not have much idea at all about this sorta stuff, I'll put it all out there - and I apologise in advance to those who may already know this, but I'm really not trying to bust your chops or teach anyone to suck eggs.
Anyhow, that 'dropped to 8 volts when cranking' bit is definitely a sign of a dead battery!! . Could be because your alternator &/or charger/tender is not charging properly; or it could be cos you've only been doing relatively low revving &/or short runs.... Because even with the 2014 on alternators instead of the 2013 & earlier mag charging systems, running the engine at idle or 'fast idle' just doesn't generate enough voltage to fully charge your Spyder battery quickly (even if it might give you a reasonable looking 'cover charge' ) and if you've only been doing runs of less than saaay '30 mins at highway speeds & revs' (ie, revs over about 2500-3000 rpm) then you really won't have been re-charging the batttery enough during those shorter runs to replace the drain each starting event/attempt takes out of it; and the cumulative effect of those short runs without a proper charge from longer run at good revs (ie, those highway speed type revs) in between is, eventually, a dead battery!!
So as you already realise wanderingman, your problem could be as a result of poor charging, causing the battery to die over time, OR it could just be that the battery has simply died! They can die like that, even brand new batteries can die like that; and that is especially possible if they ever spend extended periods just sitting with a 'less than full charge' in them! They'll sit for ages if left fully charged & without any parasitic drain, but they won't last anywhere near as long if left sitting only they weren't fully charged when they started! Still, if you only ever left it sitting for saaay, more than a week after you've been on a long run at highway speeds & revs, then that shouldn't be quite so likely..... but do you ever leave it sitting for more than a week or so after shorter/low rev running?!? If you do ever do that, then that could be why it's got a dead battery now!
Btw, for those who don't already know, a VOM that only shows whole numbers isn't really of much use in this sort of battery/charging problem diagnosis, since 12.7 volts can be about 90% 'fully charged' while 12.0 volts is basically 'flat'; and anything less than about 11.5 volts AT ANY TIME - static/resting charge; while charging; under load while starting; at ANY time is considered waaay beyond DEAD!! . Dunno about in your neck of the woods, but here in Oz it costs maybe $10-$15 to get a basic Multi-meter that'll give you voltages to 2 decimal places as well as amps, ohms, continuity, et al - there's a pic below of a 'slightly more hi-tech' unit that cost maybe $20, it's the latest one that I use as my 'disposable battery/auto elec testing tool' and it takes a beating but does the job... and it's not a major loss if I break it or lose it!! Maybe you should check your local auto accessories outlets or discount parts stores to see if you can get one similar. It doesn't hafta be absolutelyaccurate, just consistently show you volts to 1 or 2 decimal places! Only without that info, you'll really only be guessing at what might be wrong!!
Regardless of all that, since your battery DOES reportedly drop to 8 volts at times, (ie, ANYTHING less than 12 volts is flat) then it HAS been highly discharged and it's time for a replacement! . A load test should confirm that; and altho very careful & diligent battery maintenance & re-charging might partially resurrect that battery, it's never going to be 'good' or reliable again, even if you do manage to get it back to starting the Spyder immediately after an good soaking re-charge!! And once you've got a new 'known good' battery in there, a multi-meter that shows volts to 2 decimal places in/around the 0-20 DCV range should help you confirm or identify/isolate any charging problems you might also have. So I'd suggest that a new battery is your first priority and an unavoidable step; with getting hold of a Multi-meter that shows 1-2 decimal places is your next priority!
Good Luck!
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 01-30-2021 at 10:32 PM.
Id like to add my 2 cents,as a retired shop owner and tech.First of all,there is a much better way of checking battery condition than just using a voltmeter.What you need is a battery capacitance style checker.This is a unit that checks condition using a fairly sophisticated method and is highly accurate,good ones can be very expensive,mine cost 1000$.But no problem bc most any decent garage will have one and can check your battery in less than 2 minutes if you have terminals already exposed.The battery doesnt have to be disconnected and to some extent the starter can be checked as well.The second thing is the starter.Starters can cause weird problems when they get hot.They normally need more current to operate as their temperature increases,thats normal but when the insulation starts to breakdown on some of their many fine windings they can draw even more current than even a good battery can supply and then you have a no crank situation.If you came to me I would first check the battery and probably not charge you for that,and then I would use a good voltmeter placed across battery connections ,and starter connections to look for voltage drop during cranking which would tell me if you had a bad connection.Then I would measure the starter current draw with an ammeter when cold and then when hot.You may have to remove some of the side panels to do this starter checking on some models like the Rt.Good luck,let us know what you find.
If you disconnect the ground wire from your battery (to remove any possible load) and the voltage doesn't come up, it's probably bad. You can try charging it while disconnected to see if it recovers. Then with the switch off, measure the current flow from the battery minus to the cable. It should be minimal unless you have something draining the battery.
When you're sure you have a good battery, check the cranking voltage. If it drops below 10 volts, the starter probably has some shorted windings.
Head in the game, eyes down the road... 2020RT
Spyder Tryke Pylot
Id like to add my 2 cents,as a retired shop owner and tech.First of all,there is a much better way of checking battery condition than just using a voltmeter.What you need is a battery capacitance style checker.This is a unit that checks condition using a fairly sophisticated method and is highly accurate,good ones can be very expensive,mine cost 1000$.But no problem bc most any decent garage will have one and can check your battery in less than 2 minutes if you have terminals already exposed.The battery doesnt have to be disconnected and to some extent the starter can be checked as well.The second thing is the starter.Starters can cause weird problems when they get hot.They normally need more current to operate as their temperature increases,thats normal but when the insulation starts to breakdown on some of their many fine windings they can draw even more current than even a good battery can supply and then you have a no crank situation.If you came to me I would first check the battery and probably not charge you for that,and then I would use a good voltmeter placed across battery connections ,and starter connections to look for voltage drop during cranking which would tell me if you had a bad connection.Then I would measure the starter current draw with an ammeter when cold and then when hot.You may have to remove some of the side panels to do this starter checking on some models like the Rt.Good luck,let us know what you find.
I want each of you that have responded to know, I truly appreciate your input. In many cases each of you have confirmed my thoughts. My next step was going to be to take the battery to be load tested. This I will still do. Checking high amperage current flow on a DC system takes an expensive amp meter. A standard clamp on meter won't do it because you don't have the magnetic field required. Regarding the VOM, I strongly agree, it is only slightly better than useless. Recently my wife and I moved into a condo with a 1 car garage. I gave my son one rollaway and two top boxes of tools. Among the tools were 1 digital and at least 1 analog VOM's. The rollaway and one top box were in my truck for work. I used them on a daily basis to earn our living. Trying to do anything without my tools is akin to having a knife at a gunfight.
So far I have not removed any Tupperware, so I am unfamiliar with most of the components under it. I believe that is about to change. Bluntly after years of turning wrenches and trouble shooting systems, having to dig deeper is not on my bucket list. Admittedly I am old and my body can't do what it used to do. Not complaining just facts. Can one of you tell me where the physical location of the starter is.
...Checking high amperage current flow on a DC system takes an expensive amp meter...
If you know (or have an idea about) the impedance of the source, the voltage change will reveal the current. A Yuasa battery of our required size has 350 CCA, the maximum current that it can deliver into a zero ohm load (all theoretical). That implies the internal resistance is on the order of 40milli ohms. So if the cranking voltage drops to 11 volts, 1 volt is measured across the .040 ohm internal resistance and 25 amps is the draw.
Your measurements indicate (within the limitations of your meter) a drop of 2 volts (11 to 9) while cranking. 2 volts across .040 ohms = 50A. BUT, if your battery is damaged the internal resistance is probably different making these numbers suspect.
You can do things like comparing the hot current calculation to the cold current calculation and perhaps learn something about your starter.
THE MONEY LINE: An easier trick is to connect your charger (not maintainer) to the battery as a booster and see how it cranks hot. If it cranks slow, the starter has issues. If it cranks fine, the battery is the problem.
Thevenin is rolling in his grave...
Head in the game, eyes down the road... 2020RT
Spyder Tryke Pylot
ButterSmooth, Thank you! I did not think of this as a way to divide between the battery and starter, but of course your idea would do just that. I have been afraid to try to start the engine with the charger connected. I know you should not Jump start these bikes with the power supply vehicle running. Doing so can blow the electronics. I learned this lesson expensively on a BMW I previously owned. While expensive, the Beemer was cheap compared to what that would cost on a Spyder. I might simply use my car battery instead of the charger. and not have the car running.
I again thank each of you for your help. Yesterday I had the battery load tested. It was bad. It seems to be starting correctly now. Two years ago I replaced the battery and it reduced the problem, but did not correct it. From the day two years ago the start characteristics just deteriorated. For this reason, I was hesitant to go for the battery first thing. Right now my opinion is that the battery I put in two years ago, although new, was a faulty battery. I believe I will add a battery tender, as suggested by ButterSmooth. Even though I ride year around there are weeks I don't ride and a tender may extend my battery life.
I am in my 8th year on the same battery. I think it time to replace it even though it still starts the Spyder.
Been using the Battery Tender since new too. If you miss a few weeks not charging the battery thats fine. But it looks like your from Florida and heat can affect a battery too.
2015 Rts Hard cranking
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Let us know the battery voltage before a crank and after a crank. Anything else you find or see would be very helpful. 
Originally Posted by Little Blue
. Could be because your alternator &/or charger/tender is not charging properly; or it could be cos you've only been doing relatively low revving &/or short runs.... Because even with the 2014 on alternators instead of the 2013 & earlier mag charging systems, running the engine at idle or 'fast idle' just doesn't generate enough voltage to fully charge your Spyder battery quickly (even if it might give you a reasonable looking 'cover charge' 
) and if you've only been doing runs of less than saaay '30 mins at highway speeds & revs' (ie, revs over about 2500-3000 rpm) then you really won't have been re-charging the batttery enough during those shorter runs to replace the drain each starting event/attempt takes out of it; and the cumulative effect of those short runs without a proper charge from longer run at good revs (ie, those highway speed type revs) in between is, eventually, a dead battery!! 
Still, if you only ever left it sitting for saaay, more than a week after you've been on a long run at highway speeds & revs, then that shouldn't be quite so likely..... but do you ever leave it sitting for more than a week or so after shorter/low rev running?!? 
If you do ever do that, then that could be why it's got a dead battery now! 
