Tyre Question - Different Topic...

[Ready2Retire]

I'm not satisfied with the front end handling of my Spyder with the OEM Kenda's (surprise!), especially ryding 2-up. It feels like I'm slyding in sharper turns. So, I'm researching new tyres for the front (leaning toward the Hankook's but no firm decision yet). Anyway, while reading a bunch of tyre threads, I noticed a lot of Spyder owners use different brand tyres front vs rear. I may be old school, but I was always under the impression that for best handling and stability use the same tyre/tread pattern front to rear. Is there an advantage on the Spyder to using different tyres front vs rear? Or does this evolve from "What's the best front tyre?" then "What's the best rear tyre?" and then combining the 2 regardless? I did search but couldn't find a good discussion that answered my question other than people were satisfied with their combination. Bottom line, is there an advantage to running different tyres front vs rear?

John

[BajaRon]

The rear tire selection is limited due to size. There are more options for the front. But sometimes the best rear tire does not have a companion tire in the size for the front. This may be, at least, some of the reason for mix and match tires. I'm not sure it is all that critical as long as you get good tires.

[Possible]

To my way of thinking, you won't be rotating tires like on a car/truck, and they are very different in their function and
size. So no reason to stick to one brand for front and rear. I would use to one brand on the front, but I see no issues
with a different brand on the rear.

[Peter Aawen]

..... I may be old school, but I was always under the impression that for best handling and stability use the same tyre/tread pattern front to rear. ....

... Bottom line, is there an advantage to running different tyres front vs rear?

John

Re the first bit, that's always been a bit of a myth, it's NEVER been as simple as being 'the best' thing to run the same tires/tread pattern front and rear, altho it has ALWAYS been a major safety issue & requirement to run the same size/tread/type of tire on any given AXLE - ie you should ALWAYS run the same tire/tread on both tires up front, just as you should run the same tires/tread on both tires at the rear!!

However, that same tire/tread on a given axle thing has sorta been extrapolated by some (many??) of the 'less than truly knowledgable' out there to mean that you should run the same size/tread/brand tires all around their vehicle, only that basically means they will very likely never be running 'the best' tires anywhere, simply because most vehicles place very different demands upon their tires to do different things at each end!! Simply put, there are substantially different requirements & expectations from the tires up front vs those on the back! And that varies depending upon the specifics of each type of vehicle, as well as the different uses those vehicles can be used for, too!

For many vehicles, including our Spyders, the front tires do the majority of the directional control & 'steering' tasks, and extremely little of the actual 'driving' task that keeps the vehicle moving; while it's the opposte for the rear - the rear tire (singular on our Spyders/Rykers) does the majority of the driving task, but only very little of the directional control/steering task - and they are very different tasks!! So for "THE BEST" tire for each of those very different tasks, you really SHOULD have different tires/tread up front vs those on the rear.... just like the majority of 2 wheeled motorcycles and many high performance/ultra-high performance vehicles do!

However, given our 'less than' high/ultra-high performance Spyders/Rykers and their quite advanced & extremely competent suite of stability & traction control systems that we commonly refer to as 'The Nanny', for all intents & purposes there is NO majorly significant advantage to running different tires/tread up front to that on the rear; but for all the same reasons there is no more real DIS-advantages to running different &/or the same tires/tread all around in exactly the same way this applies to the vast majority of modern motor vehicles, just so long as you run the same tires/tread on the front axle and also run the same tires/tread on the rear axle (but the front/s can be different to the rear/s) - which is fairly easy for us, with two tires up front and only one rear tire!

All that said, it ìs much more important that you run a tire/tires in a size/tread/type that is suitable for YOUR vehicle and YOUR needs & wants; as well as that you run whatever tires you have fitted at an appropriate pressure for the load they're carrying! And the pressures required in the OE spec Kendas are as per the tire placard/manual, while the pressures necessary for any auto tires capable of carrying significantly higher weights than that of our Spyders/Rykers is somewhat less, cos they simply don't need/want pressures quite that high for the lighter weights imposed upon them!

Make sense??

Over to you!

[ARtraveler]

Not Spyder, but when I replaced the tires on my Vulcan about six months ago, I had to get two different brands. The wheel sizes are different front to back and matched sets were a no go unless I special ordered them.

I have experienced no handling issues in the 5,000 plus miles I have driven on the Vulcan.

We had one Spyder with two different brands front/back. No issues either in 10,000 miles plus.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

95 % with Peter .... From the " tire science " combined with what I have actually tried.... here's what I have learned from various Spyders ( I see no reason to think RYKERS are really any different ) .... I have nothing good to say about the Kenda OEM tires, no matter what year or tread design ..... The traction afforded by Auto tires actually vary to only a small degree and this mostly applies to WET traction. DRY traction is almost equal .... The width of the tires also doesn't have a great deal of difference - WHY is this , because Spyders have VSS traction control. A super sticky front set will just trigger the NANNY sooner, but in my experience I mostly get only the signal flash .... not any loss of power. This occurs if you drive smoothly, if you also have to correct your line then " power loss " usually occurs. I think the MOST important factor by far is the PSI you use ( Auto tires only ) At the levels I use 17 front - 18 rear some folks have said " it feels squirrely or loose " it may feel that way but in reality the tire is performing at or close to it's optimum ..... Can it be perfect - YES - lower or higher PSI depending on weight of riders and gear can be achieved .... but to achieve this it would be very, very time consuming. .... suitable for RACING at a Race track ..... WHY is this - because the difference between PERFECT and 98 % would drive someone NUTS. ..... Peter and I live in the real world and give advice about tires and things related to them as it applies to many different people who have different wants / needs. So what we say is meant to cover a broad spectrum of users ..... hope this helps .... Mike

[Peter Aawen]

...... I think the MOST important factor by far is the PSI you use ( Auto tires only ) At the levels I use 17 front - 18 rear some folks have said " it feels squirrely or loose " it may feel that way but in reality the tire is performing at or close to it's optimum ..... Can it be perfect - YES - lower or higher PSI depending on weight of riders and gear can be achieved .... but to achieve this it would be very, very time consuming. .... suitable for RACING at a Race track ..... WHY is this - because the difference between PERFECT and 98 % would drive someone NUTS. .....

Heck, the difference between 90% & 92.5% alone would drive most people nuts (look what it's done to me!! ) and I reckon the effort required doubles exponentially for every % point from there on up!!

There comes a point of diminishing returns, and for most, that 17-18 psi in an auto tire fitted to a Spyder/Ryker is going to be pretty close to the optimum anyway, so why chase your tail down the rabbit hole?!? Sure, the 'absolute optimum' tire pressure for each individual machine with each individual ryder will change with each individual day/hour/minute depending upon all sorts of things including road surfaces, road temps, ambient temps, and a bunch more besides; but it won't change by much; and for the majority of us, just 30 mins of ryding at the pressures above is likely to bring the ACTUAL tire pressure to within plus or minus 2 psi of the optimum operating pressure for that individual tire under that individual load in those individual driving conditions on that individual day anyway....

As for those who've trained their 'bum dyno' over time to become so used to over-inflated, harsh ryding, dartingly direct steering, puncture prone pressures that give them the last yard or so per gallon of fuel efficiency that they don't know any different anymore but will still complain when the auto tires they've fitted hydro-plane in the wet, they've really only got themselves to blame.

[Ready2Retire]

Over to you!

Thanks for the reply Peter, you certainly covered all the bases! Bottom line, for the majority of ryders, there is no real advantage/disadvantage and it becomes a function of likes, desires, and availability. Thanks again.

A super sticky front set will just trigger the NANNY sooner, but in my experience I mostly get only the signal flash .... not any loss of power. This occurs if you drive smoothly, if you also have to correct your line then " power loss " usually occurs.

Mike, I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. Now I don't ryde aggressively, especially not with the DW on the back. Where I noticed the slyding feeling was in a traffic circle. In AZ on hwy 260 running 55 - 60 and entering a traffic circle, I slowed down and started the right curve to enter, then immediately turned left to go around the circle, accelerating as I came toward the end of the curve coming out. As I transitioned from right to left is when I felt the right front wheel groan and slip slightly. Not a lot, but it was there. The Nanny never kicked in. What I was wanting to do is get front tires that would grip a little better (sticky'er?). I never felt the rear slide, it seemed planted. Are you saying in my scenario tires that grip better would trigger a response from Nanny? Can you elaborate?

John

[bigbadbrucie]

W

Mike, I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. Now I don't ryde aggressively, especially not with the DW on the back. Where I noticed the slyding feeling was in a traffic circle. In AZ on hwy 260 running 55 - 60 and entering a traffic circle, I slowed down and started the right curve to enter, then immediately turned left to go around the circle, accelerating as I came toward the end of the curve coming out. As I transitioned from right to left is when I felt the right front wheel groan and slip slightly. Not a lot, but it was there. The Nanny never kicked in. What I was wanting to do is get front tires that would grip a little better (sticky'er?). I never felt the rear slide, it seemed planted. Are you saying in my scenario tires that grip better would trigger a response from Nanny? Can you elaborate?

John

I have experienced the same feeling in some traffic circles, but have been able to trace it to small pebbles and/or a small bit of sand right in the circle. It doesn’t occur all of the time, only occasionally.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Thanks for the reply Peter, you certainly covered all the bases! Bottom line, for the majority of ryders, there is no real advantage/disadvantage and it becomes a function of likes, desires, and availability. Thanks again.



Mike, I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. Now I don't ryde aggressively, especially not with the DW on the back. Where I noticed the slyding feeling was in a traffic circle. In AZ on hwy 260 running 55 - 60 and entering a traffic circle, I slowed down and started the right curve to enter, then immediately turned left to go around the circle, accelerating as I came toward the end of the curve coming out. As I transitioned from right to left is when I felt the right front wheel groan and slip slightly. Not a lot, but it was there. The Nanny never kicked in. What I was wanting to do is get front tires that would grip a little better (sticky'er?). I never felt the rear slide, it seemed planted. Are you saying in my scenario tires that grip better would trigger a response from Nanny? Can you elaborate?

John

Diagnosing this is really not possible, your Spyder would need to be connected to some pretty complicated machines /computers to have a definitive answer. ...... Consider this - the VSS reacts mostly to loss of traction, but not always. .... Lateral " G " forces will/can trigger it also. .... My super sticky tires ( on the front ) at the time were Toyo T1r's in 185/50-15, which is super wide for an RT ( even with the old style fenders ) ..... When maxing the speed ( double or more of the yellow caution signs ) in tight twistie's, I wouldn't loose traction ... the problem was too much traction at the speed I was at ..... and the Nanny only flashed the VSS warning light briefly and didn't cut back the engine or activate the brakes ... I pay a lot of attention to How Smooth I can be at faster speeds in the twistie's, because Not Smooth will trigger the VSS very quickly ..... My best friend is a Master Mechanic, He has an 11 Vette that He put Twin Turbo's on .... a Slingshot that He added a custom " HAAN " turbo to ... Both of these are SCARY " QUICK " and they both have a top speed far above what came from the factory ..... When I go fast in any vehicle, I need to be the Driver , except when I ride with Andy, I've often checked the speedo to see how fast we are going .... that's when I start to get scared, He is so smooth it's hard to tell how fast we are going, and the speedo doesn't lie .... as far as driving goes I rate Him in the professional class ride safe - ride happy .... Mike

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Bottom line, for the majority of ryders, there is no real advantage/disadvantage and it becomes a function of likes, desires, and availability. Thanks again.

You've got it!

[ARtraveler]

A great discussion, without the "usual."

[Ready2Retire]

.... Lateral " G " forces will/can trigger it also. ....

Okay, now I understand what you're saying, I have experienced this with my Wrangler. It has a nanny that among other things tries to prevent the top and the wheels from switching position. There's a stretch of highway locally that is curved in combination with the road settling wrong causing the "roller-coaster" effect (east bound US95 just past I 15 near the Main Street exit for anyone familiar). At speed the Jeep hates that stretch and more often than not triggers the nanny, applying the brakes and cutting power. Thanks for elaborating.

John

[Peteoz]

Thanks for the reply Peter, you certainly covered all the bases!
John

Hahaha......yes, Peter always covers all the bases, John...... (and on a field that has 200 bases, rather than just 4 ). ...... and that’s not a criticism .

Pete

[Peteoz]

Not Spyder, but when I replaced the tires on my Vulcan about six months ago, I had to get two different brands. The wheel sizes are different front to back and matched sets were a no go unless I special ordered them.
.

Yeah, if the fastest racers on the planet use different compounds front and rear, AR, there must be a respectable reason. (not that MotoGP riders ride as fast as me, of course )

Pete

[RazzleH]

I sometimes ponder the coefficient of friction being different beneath each tyre at any given moment,and whether that is factored into our 'same brand/size on each axle' thinking. Spyder Nanny handles each tire's contact with the road individually. Wisely so I reckon.

[Peter Aawen]

I sometimes ponder the coefficient of friction being different beneath each tyre at any given moment,and whether that is factored into our 'same brand/size on each axle' thinking. Spyder Nanny handles each tire's contact with the road individually. Wisely so I reckon.

Yeah, I do agree with your ponderings, and your first point there; the Nanny certainly does handle each tire's contact on the road individually! As you go on to suggest, that definitely is 'wisely so'! Once you've explored the limits of adhesion with different brand/tread tires on any one axle, you'll begin to realise very quickly WHY the 'same brand/size/tread on each axle' is SOOO important!!

[RazzleH]

It is from having explored those individual tyre adhesion limits that has made me ponder the value some put on something so changeable. If each tyre is adhering differently to it's partners at any given moment, surely the focus on matching the tryes is overstated.

[Peter Aawen]

It's when you introduce significantly different adhesion limits & performance characteristics from side to side (ie, running different types/treads across an axle, front or rear) that things become quite unpredictable & so can potentially produce SERIOUSLY bum puckering moments!

With matching tire types/tread across an axle, the 'side to side' variations are there, but they aren't usually massive &/or mutually antagonistic, and most tires are designed & engineered to be generally predictable as well as usually giving the operator some warning before the tires reach their limits & let go! And even if/when one of those ends 'let's go' & hangs the tail or even spins, if your operator is reasonably competent, the situation is usually (eventually ) recoverable, if you don't hit something first!

However, when you run different tire types/tread on either side of the vehicle, that basically progressive & relatively predictable nature of 'over-steer vs under-steer' that is something most people learn to manage reasonably well from the moment they start learning to drive just disappears..... so instead of having correctable & in some respects, even 'controllable' over-steer or under-steer 'incipient spin' situations when one end or the other steps out (consider those 'drift cars' you see, or you hanging the tail juuust a little on slippery corners, etc) the driver/ryder can SUDDENLY end up in what is an effectively uncontrollable situation, simply because as the vehicle loses control & snaps into a spin &/or a roll and ends up wildly gyrating its way off or down the road, while & where the continually changing grip from side to side doesn't (& can't!) respond readily to any of the control inputs the Nanny OR the driver/ryder is likely to capable of providing in a suitably effective timeframe!

Even the really capable & very effective VSS that our Spyder/Rykers run simply won't let the Computer OR the Ryder provide timely control input to either side of the machine's three wheels/control surfaces, the tires (braking right front &/or rear, vs braking left front &/or rear, OR vs braking right front only &/or braking left front only - or was that dropping power to the rear, or the right side rear vs the left side rear?!? ) and altho the VSS can brake one or more control surface (tire) it can't control the sides so much as it controls the corners or the ends of the machine, and with the handlebars &/or the throttle/brakes, the Ryder too CAN provide control input to one END or the OTHER!

So if you've got reasonably matching grip & handling characteristics across the axles at each end, the Computer can predictably & in a timely manner control those ends, even working to reduce the likelihood of flipping/rolling, just as you the operator can learn/develop the skills to minimise those 'let go on one end' situations & maybe even develop some skill at controlling the lesser 'let go on one end' situations in time to save your machine from spinning or rolling. Heck, most of us Spyder/Ryker ryders even enjoy 'hanging the tail' a little every now & then, but I don't know of any computer on a road based vehicle or of anyone driving/riding any vehicle who enjoys losing control over just the right side of their vehicle or just the left side of their vehicle - especially if it ends up flipping, rolling, &/or spinning, and so gyrating its way down the road with uncontrollable sides and ends!! That's called an 'unrecoverable spin/roll' vs the 'over-steer or under-steer' induced spins that are generally considered to be avoidable & potentially recoverable (if you don't lose control of one side & roll, &/or hit anything first!! ) Make sense??

[EdMat]

So if you've got reasonably matching grip & handling characteristics across the axles at each end, the Computer can predictably & in a timely manner control those ends, even working to reduce the likelihood of flipping/rolling, just as you the operator can learn/develop the skills to minimise those 'let go on one end' situations & maybe even develop some skill at controlling the lesser 'let go on one end' situations in time to save your machine from spinning or rolling. Heck, most of us Spyder/Ryker ryders even enjoy 'hanging the tail' a little every now & then, but I don't know of any computer on a road based vehicle or of anyone driving/riding any vehicle who enjoys losing control over just the right side of their vehicle or just the left side of their vehicle - especially if it ends up flipping, rolling, &/or spinning, and so gyrating its way down the road with uncontrollable sides and ends!! That's called an 'unrecoverable spin/roll' vs the 'over-steer or under-steer' induced spins that are generally considered to be avoidable & potentially recoverable (if you don't lose control of one side & roll, &/or hit anything first!! ) Make sense??

OH you just had to mention flip didn't you. Hope you can view this facebook link. https://www.facebook.com/groups/3136...8666563021904/

[Peter Aawen]

OH you just had to mention flip didn't you. Hope you can view this facebook link. https://www.facebook.com/groups/3136...8666563021904/

Yup!! Like I said, have that happen when you're not actually trying to do it, or not at least 'sorta expecting it to occur/be somewhat likely' WILL produce some seriously bum clenching moments!!

[Poasttown]

I’m beginning to wonder if anyone is happy with the stock Kenda tires. My experience with other bikes, not the spyder yet, has been associated with the tread life of the stock tires. I just got tired of having to change the tires every year. (4000 to 5000 miles per year) It seemed that I was always faced with the situation where my tire tread was somewhat marginal when I was ready for a trip so I could either replace them or begin the trip with the last quarter of life on the tire.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

I’m beginning to wonder if anyone is happy with the stock Kenda tires.

Yes, there are. There have been posts on here by a number of owners who were quite satisfied with them.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

It's when you introduce significantly different adhesion limits & performance characteristics from side to side (ie, running different types/treads across an axle, front or rear) that things become quite unpredictable & so can potentially produce SERIOUSLY bum puckering moments!

With matching tire types/tread across an axle, the 'side to side' variations are there, but they aren't usually massive &/or mutually antagonistic, and most tires are designed & engineered to be generally predictable as well as usually giving the operator some warning before the tires reach their limits & let go! And even if/when one of those ends 'let's go' & hangs the tail or even spins, if your operator is reasonably competent, the situation is usually (eventually ) recoverable, if you don't hit something first!

However, when you run different tire types/tread on either side of the vehicle, that basically progressive & relatively predictable nature of 'over-steer vs under-steer' that is something most people learn to manage reasonably well from the moment they start learning to drive just disappears..... so instead of having correctable & in some respects, even 'controllable' over-steer or under-steer 'incipient spin' situations when one end or the other steps out (consider those 'drift cars' you see, or you hanging the tail juuust a little on slippery corners, etc) the driver/ryder can SUDDENLY end up in what is an effectively uncontrollable situation, simply because as the vehicle loses control & snaps into a spin &/or a roll and ends up wildly gyrating its way off or down the road, while & where the continually changing grip from side to side doesn't (& can't!) respond readily to any of the control inputs the Nanny OR the driver/ryder is likely to capable of providing in a suitably effective timeframe!

Even the really capable & very effective VSS that our Spyder/Rykers run simply won't let the Computer OR the Ryder provide timely control input to either side of the machine's three wheels/control surfaces, the tires (braking right front &/or rear, vs braking left front &/or rear, OR vs braking right front only &/or braking left front only - or was that dropping power to the rear, or the right side rear vs the left side rear?!? ) and altho the VSS can brake one or more control surface (tire) it can't control the sides so much as it controls the corners or the ends of the machine, and with the handlebars &/or the throttle/brakes, the Ryder too CAN provide control input to one END or the OTHER!

So if you've got reasonably matching grip & handling characteristics across the axles at each end, the Computer can predictably & in a timely manner control those ends, even working to reduce the likelihood of flipping/rolling, just as you the operator can learn/develop the skills to minimise those 'let go on one end' situations & maybe even develop some skill at controlling the lesser 'let go on one end' situations in time to save your machine from spinning or rolling. Heck, most of us Spyder/Ryker ryders even enjoy 'hanging the tail' a little every now & then, but I don't know of any computer on a road based vehicle or of anyone driving/riding any vehicle who enjoys losing control over just the right side of their vehicle or just the left side of their vehicle - especially if it ends up flipping, rolling, &/or spinning, and so gyrating its way down the road with uncontrollable sides and ends!! That's called an 'unrecoverable spin/roll' vs the 'over-steer or under-steer' induced spins that are generally considered to be avoidable & potentially recoverable (if you don't lose control of one side & roll, &/or hit anything first!! ) Make sense??

.... I'd like to add to this, some other factors that should be considered .... #1 - " tire size charts " , Not all tires of Any given size ( ie. what's stated on the actual tire sidewall ) ... are actually the same. Even as little as 1/4 inch in Circumference will make a difference. #2. - different tire Compounds will wear at different rates, so one tire will wear quicker than the other. #3. - Different tire Compounds, will have different Traction capabilities, this will effect Braking / Accelerating abilities and to a lessor extent Lateral ( ie.turning ) forces ( ie "G's" )....... Mike

[RayBJ]

I’m beginning to wonder if anyone is happy with the stock Kenda tires.....

Different riding styles demand different equipment. If you are a 'normal' rider, the Kendas and OEM sway bar may be fine for you. If you are a 'spirited' rider, you will quickly identify areas needing upgrades as you push the limits of your machine.