2011 key - where might I find a Master Key?

[piperight]

I bought a 2011 Spyder Rt a couple months ago. It came with one key (the guy can't find the other). I;ve done some research and found I need to get a blank, take it to a lock smith, then to a dealer to get it and the original key reprogrammed. I've also read that if I could get a master key, I could program them myself. I've tried to find a master key but have had no luck. Does anyone on here know where I might find one?

[Possible]

I dunno about the 2011 but with Peggy's 2013 I just took the key and Spyder to a locksmith and he cut the key and programmed it to the bike.
Out the door for about $65. Seems like the 2011 should be very similar, although I've heard the latest models are more of a pain to do.

[piperight]

Thanks, but I can't find a locksmith who can program it or clone it. He would need the red master key to program.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

One option is to get an Aprilla key blank. Sorry, I don't remember the number. It can be cut and then cloned using your current key by many hardware stores or other key cutters. You will have two keys but the downside is they both appear to be the same key to the DESS. If you lose them both then you're screwed.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

It looks like you are pretty much SOL. I suspect sales of the key are limited to dealers and locksmiths. No retail sales allowed.

Check out this thread: https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...red-Master-Key. The link in the thread is no good.

Part # looks to be 529036106. The only source that came up in a Google search is this Russian site. http://eobd.ru/glavnaya/product/343836211

Your best bet might be to order a key blank and have it cut. Then carry it with you as you travel and when you get near a dealer go there and have them program it.

[Possible]

That link is totally wrong. It is no big deal to get a key made and programmed for a 2013 Spyder. I had it done about 2 months ago
at a regular automotive locksmith that does car keys and remotes.

Absolutely wrong information in that link. The guy used my key, and cut a key and programmed it and it's the one we use all the time.

So I repeat, that thread that was linked to is wrong, at least for 2013 Spyders, which were specifically mentioned.

Heck, send me your key and I'll take it down and have it done for you. No biggie. About $65 out the door.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

That link is totally wrong. It is no big deal to get a key made and programmed for a 2013 Spyder. I had it done about 2 months ago
at a regular automotive locksmith that does car keys and remotes.

Absolutely wrong information in that link. The guy used my key, and cut a key and programmed it and it's the one we use all the time.

So I repeat, that thread that was linked to is wrong, at least for 2013 Spyders, which were specifically mentioned.

Heck, send me your key and I'll take it down and have it done for you. No biggie. About $65 out the door.

No, the thread is not wrong!

Did he program it, or just clone it? I'm sure he cloned it. You have to have the master key to actually program a new key with a new ID code into the DESS on 2013 & earlier. Cloning copies the key ID into the new key so DESS only sees one key ID being used regardless of how many clone keys you have. The DESS will only accept 4 unique key IDs. Cloning is what I did to have a spare key available.

[Possible]

What difference does it make whether the key is programmed or cloned? And you stated that the owner is SOL unless he can get
the "master key". If he can clone the key he has, why would he need to program a new key? Obviously a new key can be made
using the old key. Why make this more complicated than it needs to be?

The OP says he has one key, so he isn't SOL because he can have a key cloned and have as many spares as he wants.

On Edit: I was wrong about the link, it is correct, but also unnecessary in this case. A spare key can be cloned so all the issues with
the master key and programming are not needed.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

What difference does it make whether the key is programmed or cloned?

2013 & earlier DESS modules are designed for two OEM keys with different key IDs to be programmed in. If you lose both OEM keys, and have no clones, that is when you really are SOL. To add a key to the DESS you must have one of the keys that is already programmed in, and 1 to 3 additional keys that can be programmed in. I don't know if Aprilla keys come with a compatible key ID that the DESS will accept or not. Cloning overwrites whatever key ID there is in the Aprilla key so the DESS sees it the same as the original OEM key. The DESS requires two to four different key IDs be available for programming or it will not complete the programming process. I don't recall reading here on the forum of anyone being able, or not, to program in a new OEM key if they only have one clone key. I don't know why it wouldn't work, unless there is something unique in the OEM key chip needed for programming that is not in the Aprilla key. You're safest having two or more OEM keys, which will have different IDs by default. To be ABSOLUTELY sure you ALWAYS have a key that works with the DESS you need to have at least one programmed OEM key available.

The DESS was changed in 2014 to use a rolling code. I don't think anyone has cracked the algorithm that is in the chip that authenticates the key and so have not come up with a key that can be cloned. The DESS stores a list of up to 8 authorized key IDs. You can add one or more keys to the list even if you have lost all the original keys. With the right BUDs program the DESS authentication process can be turned off. I don't think that can be done pre-2014.

[Possible]

Thanks for the explanation. I had heard that some people have basically "switched off" the DESS to prevent issues with it not recognizing
the key, and subsequently not being able to start the Spyder. But I have no idea what years are referred to with that. However the OP
has the original key so he should be able to clone it so he has a spare on hand.

He was given bad advice apparently when they told him he had to take it to the dealer to program the key, when he can simply get it cloned
and be done with it. A good automotive locksmith will have blanks that work, they even have the hole for a key ring. No, I don't use a key ring.

We use the one we had made and store the OEM key in the house.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Thanks for the explanation. I had heard that some people have basically "switched off" the DESS to prevent issues with it not recognizing
the key, and subsequently not being able to start the Spyder. But I have no idea what years are referred to with that.

Affected Spyders were mostly early production 2014s. It's been very hit and miss and not readily reproducible between bikes. I've never had the problem even though I have an early 2014 RT. Turning it off can be done for all Spyders 2014 on as far as I know.

He was given bad advice apparently when they told him he had to take it to the dealer to program the key, when he can simply get it cloned
and be done with it. A good automotive locksmith will have blanks that work, they even have the hole for a key ring. No, I don't use a key ring.

Cloning is not a BRP sanctioned option so it's not surprising the dealer said it can't be done. It's a fairly uncommon key so I don't know how many locksmiths will have it in stock. Discussion here back in 2012/13/14 referred mostly to online sources.

[Possible]

Thanks, but I can't find a locksmith who can program it or clone it. He would need the red master key to program.

He would need a red key to reprogram, but a decent automotive locksmith can clone the key in about 15 minutes.

[Possible]

Not surprising cloning isn't sanctioned by BRP, cuts into their profits.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

He would need a red key to reprogram, but a decent automotive locksmith can clone the key in about 15 minutes.

A local True Value HW store cloned mine. I don't think they even charged me to cut & clone it since that wasn't in their price list. I brought the key with me!

[Bfromla]

Vague Understanding is 2013 & prior keys can be cloned, not requiring programming to the system the updated system can accept new key from BRP as well with a maximum number of programmed keys in system.however If not done right the original key may be kicked out of system. Could just add enough keys & just use new keys disabling DESS (however convenient)would be removing one of the safety features, allowing possibly grater risk of theft.

Aprilia clone key:
http://www.lockpicks.com/aprilia-sco...23rt5-jma.html

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Vague Understanding is 2013 & prior keys can be cloned, not requiring programming to the system the updated system can accept new key from BRP as well with a maximum number of programmed keys in system.however If not done right the original key may be kicked out of system. Could just add enough keys & just use new keys disabling DESS (however convenient)would be removing one of the safety features, allowing possibly grater risk of theft.

Aprilia clone key:
http://www.lockpicks.com/aprilia-sco...23rt5-jma.html

You almost have it! The key system was changed significantly in 2014, with the only thing common between the old and new is the grooves of the key (I think), and the use of the term DESS. The pre-2014 DESS is a lot different from the 2014 & on DESS.

The 2013 & earlier system could have a max of 4 unique key IDs, with at least two having to be programmed in. The 2013 & earlier keys can be cloned, but the OEM key used for cloning must have been programmed into the DESS. You can lose one of the two OEM keys and be OK, but you must have a BRP key if you want to program in a new key ID. Maybe an Aprilla key, new not cloned, will program in. I don't recall anyone saying they have done so. If you don't have two unique key IDs for the programming, and try to program a new key, it won't work. But the one already programmed in stays in the DESS. All programming is is entering a key ID into the DESS list of authorized keys. When you insert a key and turn on the ignition the DESS module asks the key, "What is your ID?" If the answer is not in the list the DESS tells the ECM, "Bad key!" and the ECM won't permit starting.

Beginning in 2014 a change was made in how the DESS communicates with the key. I don't know exactly but as I understand it when the DESS asks the key for its ID the key sends a code generated from the key ID in response to some secret code the DESS sends the key. The DESS compares the answer it gets from the key with the answer the DESS is expecting to get. If they match the DESS tells the ECM it's OK to start. Once the start command is given the key chip no longer needs to be in the vicinity of the ignition. In fact, it's possible to put a chip key down on the ignition but have a non-chip key in the ignition. Once the bike starts put the chip key in your pocket. External digital and analog signals of various sorts can scramble the answer the key sends to the DESS and the DESS says, "Bad key." What kinds of external signals cause the scramble are not known, or BRP hasn't disclosed what they are. They made changes to make the key to DESS communication more robust and largely eliminated the problem. Because the algorithm used in the key and the DESS to create the secret code has not been made known, no one that I know of has been able to create a key that can be cloned from an OEM key. One of the changes from 2013 to 2014 is you can erase all the key IDs from the DESS and then add IDs back in. This is done with BUDS whereas in the earlier system the method of adding key IDs was hard programmed into the DESS module.

Disabling the anti-theft aspect of the DESS key is the primary argument against turning off the DESS check, but many owners are willing to accept that risk of theft as it is probably quite small.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Vague Understanding is 2013 & prior keys can be cloned, not requiring programming to the system the updated system can accept new key from BRP as well with a maximum number of programmed keys in system.however If not done right the original key may be kicked out of system. Could just add enough keys & just use new keys disabling DESS (however convenient)would be removing one of the safety features, allowing possibly grater risk of theft.

Aprilia clone key:
http://www.lockpicks.com/aprilia-sco...23rt5-jma.html

" greater risk of theft " ....even if the DESS ( safety system ) is dis-abled, a thief would still have to have a key that will turn the ignition switch .... How could someone have that key ???? ..... the owner leaves their key in the ignition .... if that was the case the DESS plays no part in this scenario ..... Mike