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Thread: CVT belt life

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Rodriguez View Post
    Part #16 is the other half of the driven clutch.. It has "blades cast in it and I'm sure it serves a somewhat dual purpose to pull air through the plastic housing but I'd more say those "blades" are used for heat dissipation and added strength. The face with the "blades" is right up against the engine so its a warm area with engine and belt heat. The cooler you can keep the clutch faces the cooler the belt runs. This means better performance and longer life.
    I don't mean to be nit-picky (as I go about being nit-picky). So, I apologize right at the beginning. But Part #16 is the drive pulley. Part #22 is the driven pulley. Not necessarily important here except that being the drive pulley connected directly to the engine crank shaft, it is always turning at the same RPM as the engine. The very nature of a CVT tends to keep the engine RPM at optimum. Which means that it typically stays within a narrow RPM range (unlike the typical engine which starts at a low RPM, increases RPM until a shift point is reached, and repeats the cycle). This narrow RPM range allows engineers to tailor fan impellers to be most efficient and move the maximum amount of air within this RPM range. The driven pulley (#22) would be a bad choice for a fan because its RPM varies greatly. It probably turns more slowly than the drive pulley under normal conditions. Plus, its location may not be as advantageous to air movement over the entire system.

    It is clear that BRP has gone to great lengths to keep this drive belt cool because this system is moving a surprising volume of air. That is why I believe the primary purpose of pulley #16 is to move air. Strength and conductive heat dissipation from the impellers could well be secondary benefits. I would say that the drive pulley endures more stress than the driven pulley.

    The driven pulley (#22) above pulley #16 also has fins. Quite likely for added strength as you mention. But they are not configured as impellers as is the lower pulley.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 05-23-2020 at 02:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    I don't mean to be nit-picky (as I go about being nit-picky). So, I apologize right at the beginning. But Part #16 is the drive pulley. Part #22 is the driven pulley. Not necessarily important here except that being the drive pulley connected directly to the engine crank shaft, it is always turning at the same RPM as the engine. The very nature of a CVT tends to keep the engine RPM at optimum. Which means that it typically stays within a narrow RPM range (unlike the typical engine which starts at a low RPM, increases RPM until a shift point is reached, and repeats the cycle). This narrow RPM range allows engineers to tailor fan impellers to be most efficient and move the maximum amount of air within this RPM range. The driven pulley (#22) would be a bad choice for a fan because its RPM varies greatly. It probably turns more slowly than the drive pulley under normal conditions. Plus, its location may not be as advantageous to air movement over the entire system.

    It is clear that BRP has gone to great lengths to keep this drive belt cool because this system is moving a surprising volume of air. That is why I believe the primary purpose of pulley #16 is to move air. Strength and conductive heat dissipation from the impellers could well be secondary benefits. I would say that the drive pulley endures more stress than the driven pulley.

    The driven pulley (#22) above pulley #16 also has fins. Quite likely for added strength as you mention. But they are not configured as impellers as is the lower pulley.
    Ron, one of the best descriptions of what a CVT transmission really does. CVT trannys are tuned to keep the engine operating in its maximum torque range as its the torque (twisting force of the output shaft of the engine) that powers the vehicle. Horse Power is a calculated number, a combination of that twisting force and the RPM of the output shaft.
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    "That is why I believe the primary purpose of pulley #16 is to move air."

    Not to disagree with you but.....The primary purpose of part #16 is being 1/2 of the driven (primary) clutch. It creates the inner sheave face (the belt rides on these faces) of the primary clutch. Without part #16 there is no driven clutch. The ribs cast into the back side of the sheave face are there normally. Just as they are on secondary (driven) clutch halves. The purpose of those ribs is for strength and heat dissipation. This is how primary clutches have been designed for a long time. BRP did do a rather clever thing and shape the "ribs" on part #16 to be more like fan blades and yes I agree they did this so they would help move air through the system (housing). This however is not the primary purpose of part #16. The clever idea is just a a way to make part#16 serve multiple purposes.

    Here is a picture of the the backside of a normal driven clutch. The ribs are there (strength and heat dissipation).
    Primary clutch back.jpg

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    Hi Ron, is there built in a second temperature-sensor for the gearbox. ??
    if I stress my Ryker ... uphill a very steep gravel road 2up, the fan started really loud, but the engine showed no higher temperature !?!
    also when I got stuck in the sand on the coast and tried to come out, (could not - without help) the noisy fan started, the engine was not too hot ..
    my belt is still OK (11.000 miles)
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    Chris, are you hearing the thermostatically controlled electric fan behind the engines radiator keeping the engine cool with out airflow created by sufficient forward vehicle motion to to create enough airflow to keep up with demands of higher heat generation as a result of the increased power requirements of your riding conditions.

    A mouth full......
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    Quote Originally Posted by old Timer View Post
    Ron, one of the best descriptions of what a CVT transmission really does. CVT trannys are tuned to keep the engine operating in its maximum torque range as its the torque (twisting force of the output shaft of the engine) that powers the vehicle. Horse Power is a calculated number, a combination of that twisting force and the RPM of the output shaft.
    True...

    Quote Originally Posted by chris56 View Post
    Hi Ron, is there built in a second temperature-sensor for the gearbox. ??
    if I stress my Ryker ... uphill a very steep gravel road 2up, the fan started really loud, but the engine showed no higher temperature !?!
    also when I got stuck in the sand on the coast and tried to come out, (could not - without help) the noisy fan started, the engine was not too hot ..
    my belt is still OK (11.000 miles)
    There is no thermal sensor in the gear box. The gear box fan is crankshaft driven off the engine. It turns all the time the engine is running. I highly doubt that it can be heard with all the other goings on in the gear box.

    Quote Originally Posted by old Timer View Post
    Chris, are you hearing the thermostatically controlled electric fan behind the engines radiator keeping the engine cool...
    Exactly. 2 separate cooling systems for 2 different drive systems. Completely unrelated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Rodriguez View Post
    "That is why I believe the primary purpose of pulley #16 is to move air."

    Not to disagree with you but.....The primary purpose of part #16 is being 1/2 of the driven (primary) clutch. It creates the inner sheave face (the belt rides on these faces) of the primary clutch. Without part #16 there is no driven clutch. The ribs cast into the back side of the sheave face are there normally. Just as they are on secondary (driven) clutch halves. The purpose of those ribs is for strength and heat dissipation. This is how primary clutches have been designed for a long time. BRP did do a rather clever thing and shape the "ribs" on part #16 to be more like fan blades and yes I agree they did this so they would help move air through the system (housing). This however is not the primary purpose of part #16. The clever idea is just a a way to make part#16 serve multiple purposes.

    Here is a picture of the the backside of a normal driven clutch. The ribs are there (strength and heat dissipation).
    Primary clutch back.jpg
    Here are excerpts from a patent application for a bolt on fan assembly for a CVT transmission. Very wordy legal/technical language (below the diagrams), but I did not want to paraphrase.

    This patent application, no doubt, comes from either an aftermarket company, or, more likely, the original manufacturer wanting to upgrade their product. All of these fan assemblies that I have found, whether incorporated into the clutch itself, as is the case with the Ryker CVT, or added to the original assembly (as is the case with this patent), are always located on the DRIVE pulley. Never on the DRIVEN pulley. The primary pulley or clutch being the drive. The secondary pulley or clutch being the driven.

    This application is for a snowmobile. But the system components function the same. You can click on, or hover your mouse pointer over the pictures to enlarge them.

    CVT1.pngCVT2.jpg

    Here is part of the patent application description. 1. A fan disk for cooling a drive clutch, sheaves, and a belt of a continuously variable transmission, wherein the fan disk is oriented with the vanes directing air through the bore and toward the drive clutch; and cooling the drive clutch by rotating the fan disk and directing air toward the drive clutch.

    You can find the entire patent here. https://patentswarm.com/patents/US8776930B2
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    As temperatures begin to heat up. And the Corona Virus restrictions lifted. It will be interesting to see if the 'Smell of Hot Rubber' increases with Ryker owners. I think this will be inevitable as the clutch and belt probably do get pretty warm. There may be a curing process as well. In which case, the smell may dissipate over time naturally. I'd say snowmobile riders might be our best, initial information source on this subject. Since they have been running this system for a long time. Though they obviously do not have the ambient air temperatures that we will encounter.

    It is interesting to me that cooling fans have been added to snowmobile applications. If they need CVT cooling. What does that say for us?

    Only time will tell. Suffice to say that anything we can do to increase air flow over the system will probably pay dividends in belt life expectancy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    It is interesting to me that cooling fans have been added to snowmobile applications. If they need CVT cooling. What does that say for us?

    Only time will tell. Suffice to say that anything we can do to increase air flow over the system will probably pay dividends in belt life expectancy.
    Was reading the Ski-doo forum (not sure if I can post the link) but they're getting between 12-15K on the belt depending on how you drive. They are running Gates Carbon belt on the 1200 models and 900 models. Drive belt width new is 34.925 mm (1.375 in), and wear limit is 32.512 mm (1.28 in).

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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    As temperatures begin to heat up. And the Corona Virus restrictions lifted. It will be interesting to see if the 'Smell of Hot Rubber' increases with Ryker owners. I think this will be inevitable as the clutch and belt probably do get pretty warm. There may be a curing process as well. In which case, the smell may dissipate over time naturally. I'd say snowmobile riders might be our best, initial information source on this subject. Since they have been running this system for a long time. Though they obviously do not have the ambient air temperatures that we will encounter.

    It is interesting to me that cooling fans have been added to snowmobile applications. If they need CVT cooling. What does that say for us?

    Only time will tell. Suffice to say that anything we can do to increase air flow over the system will probably pay dividends in belt life expectancy.
    The snowmobile CVT systems used to be "open" on the side facing away from the engine with a simple metal plate belt guard on top. Over time some manufacture's (brp being the primary one) started encasing their cvt system in a plastic housing. Similar to the Ryker. At the same time all ATV CVT system are encased in some sort of housing to keep mud, dirt, water, etc out. Encasing the CVT drive causes it to run hotter obviously which is bad for belt life and performance. You also have to remember some of these high performance snowmobile engines found on factory sleds and ATV's are pushing 200hp (stock). Higher horsepower, more torque, more stress on the belt. One of the ways manufacturers deal with the heat build up is to mold the CVT housing in such a way as to capture fresh outside air and push it through the CVT housing. You see a setup like this on the Ryker and its common on sleds and ATV's as well. I hadn't seen these CVT fans shown in the patent but obviously the "bolt on" fan disk the patent shows and the fan blades cast into the clutch casting of the Ryker is an attempt to get more air through the system to keep the belt cooler. The Ryker belts are running at a fairly low horsepower number compared to their sled and ATV applications but certainly higher outside air temps than the sleds but not the ATV's. As a general rule you don't smell belt burn on a sled unless the CVT is improperly adjusted or you have shredded the belt (belt has over heated and failed).

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    I only have the "Smell of Hot Rubber" if I push her really hard .. we use her more for longer tours (11.000 miles now), maybe the Rally-ryders have more problems with this ..
    But someone told me its very urgent to "warm up" the belt before I make some burn-outs or high-speed tests ! I use a "stronger" mapping now, so maybe this will reduce the belt-live, so maybe the stronger Maverik-X3 belt works also for the Ryker ???
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    Quote Originally Posted by 63amg View Post
    Was reading the Ski-doo forum (not sure if I can post the link) but they're getting between 12-15K on the belt depending on how you drive. They are running Gates Carbon belt on the 1200 models and 900 models. Drive belt width new is 34.925 mm (1.375 in), and wear limit is 32.512 mm (1.28 in).
    I've read mixed reviews on the aftermarket belts, including Gates. Hard to know for sure which way to go. Some report excellent service. Others say they are junk and only OEM will hold up.

    Aftermarket belts are certainly less expensive. I have found that less expensive does not necessarily translate to an inferior product.

    For example. EBC rotors have proven to be much superior to OEM. Yet they cost about 1/2 the price. It does go both ways though. So the old adage, 'You buy cheap, you get cheap' has to be considered.

    One thing is pretty sure. BRP/Can-Am are not making these belts. A good guess is that one of these aftermarket companies, like Gated, are making this belt and branding it for BRP/Can-Am. While they could spec it out differently. I don't think in likely. Same with oil and a lot of other Off-The-Shelf items that come in a BRP box.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 05-25-2020 at 09:13 AM.
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    Someone here noted they thought Timeken (the bearing company) was making CVT drive belts for all the OEM's and after market people? Maybe?

    It's like covers. BRP sells a snowmobile cover for about $300. You can buy the same cover without BRP decals on it from Kimpex for about $125.

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    I have about 15000 miles on my Rally. I ran across a bell issue once when riding at interstate speeds with a dirty CVT air filter. I agree with previous post that the CVT puts through a huge amount of air and the CVT filter gets dirty in 1/3 the time that the normal engine air intake filter gets dirty. Yes, I could smell the burning rubber as well as had belt slippage at higher speeds.

    To solve the issue prior to getting home, I remove the CVT filter and put a cloth around the CVT intake vent secured by rubber band. Yes, call me macgyver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RykerUSA View Post
    I have about 15000 miles on my Rally. I ran across a bell issue once when riding at interstate speeds with a dirty CVT air filter. I agree with previous post that the CVT puts through a huge amount of air and the CVT filter gets dirty in 1/3 the time that the normal engine air intake filter gets dirty. Yes, I could smell the burning rubber as well as had belt slippage at higher speeds.

    To solve the issue prior to getting home, I remove the CVT filter and put a cloth around the CVT intake vent secured by rubber band. Yes, call me macgyver.
    Sounds like a plan to me!
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    Quote Originally Posted by RykerUSA View Post
    To solve the issue prior to getting home, I remove the CVT filter and put a cloth around the CVT intake vent secured by rubber band. Yes, call me macgyver.


    ~~~I'd call it Hoosier ingenuity=:-) BTW, all my kin is from Goshen, Elkhart (pronounced L-Kart)<LOL>


    On a more serious vein, I'm surprised no one has mentioned if their rollers were worn when replacing the CVT belt (Ryker). I've had better than a half dozen CVT scooters through the years starting with the 1985 250cc Honda Elite motor scooter I bought new that year, while still living in Big D (Detroit). Late 85' we moved (me & wifey) to the lower Fla. Keys, and took that scooter with us. Helen had so much fun riding my Elite, when she beat me to it (she was usually 1st outta the house in the mornings), so we bought a 175cc Honda scooter for her. Sorry, but I digress, the point I wanted to make was from memory, every time I replaced a CVT belt,, the rollers in the drive pulley always had flat spots on them, so I replaced them as matter of course. Again, I'm surprised I haven't heard anyone that has replaced the CVT belt in their Ryker, mention replacing the rollers at the same time


    Not that anyone asked but my current CVT motorscooter is a 2013 Vespa 300cc GTS. I bought it new in 2014. There's currently 7 K miles on the odometer. I recently replaced the CVT belt(& the rollers) although the factory says to do that @ 9 K miles. I'll admit, I ride that scooter like I stole it. I mean really hard, throttle pinned most of the time and today I rode it back from Gainesville using interstate and I ran it WOT which is 80 +MPH on I-75 southbound. Anyways, the clutch shoes were worn to the metal backing plates in several spots so when I replaced the clutch shoes, I replaced the CVTbelt while I was in there

    One more before I go and Helen is screaming at me to make her supper=:-). I rode a 2002 Honda Silverwing scooter from our Fla. homestead to the mile high mayhem scooter rally in 2004 (Denver CO). At one point I was along on a city ride with others and it was so hilly and my CVTbelt was screeching big time. It was pretty common knowledge that the screech sounds were from the pulley halves gettin a glaze on them. The way to rid the glaze was to brake torque it and sure enough, problem solved


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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    As temperatures begin to heat up. And the Corona Virus restrictions lifted. It will be interesting to see if the 'Smell of Hot Rubber' increases with Ryker owners...
    It was over 100F today when I was running errands.

    Temp gauge goes to 5 bars within about 1/2 mile of easy riding and stays there.
    Radiator fan did not even come on, even after engine was heat saturated, but I was not stopped at signals long.

    The coolant-oil heat changer works well for the engine.
    Did notice some minor coloring of the CVT filter, whereas the engine filter looks pristine.

    No smells.
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    For those of you who want to see what the Ryker CVT looks like.
    Ryker CVT.jpg

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    Here is the full video. CVT part is short and starts at 1' 5". I watch Shawn Smoak every morning with my oatmeal. I suggest watching the full video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6sJJ2zi70E

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    I like when he says "this CVT could power a train". Just makes me think even more that BRP designed the Ryker from day 1 to be offered with the 900ACE turbo engine at some point. Maybe 2021?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Rodriguez View Post
    I like when he says "this CVT could power a train". Just makes me think even more that BRP designed the Ryker from day 1 to be offered with the 900ACE turbo engine at some point. Maybe 2021?
    ~~~yeah, that is one big honkin driven pulley. The drive pulley looks overbuilt too. So what's this about a 900 turbo engine Rob, is it in any other Can Am platform?


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    Quote Originally Posted by shakin_jake View Post
    ~~~yeah, that is one big honkin driven pulley. The drive pulley looks overbuilt too. So what's this about a 900 turbo engine Rob, is it in any other Can Am platform?


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    Jake
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    The 900 Ace Turbo is used in the snowmobiles, the SXS's and I believe the Sea-doo. It's the same 900 engine that's in the Ryker but it has a turbo and some beefier internals to handle the extra power. In the Snowmobile its rated for 150hp. I'd be happy with 125 in the Ryker. Hell, 105 would be better

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Rodriguez View Post
    The 900 Ace Turbo is used in the snowmobiles, the SXS's and I believe the Sea-doo. It's the same 900 engine that's in the Ryker but it has a turbo and some beefier internals to handle the extra power. In the Snowmobile its rated for 150hp. I'd be happy with 125 in the Ryker. Hell, 105 would be better


    ~~~well that explains my unfamiliarity with the 900cc turbo motor, we don't get to ride snowmobiles here in Fla. <LOL>. It's probably only a matter of time before someone on this list serve bolts the turbo motor into their Ryker. I would imagine had BRP actually sold the Ryker with a 150 HP engine, some of these guys would greatly shorten their lifespan right quick. I only say that from experience, after owning at least one motorcycle I just had to explore its speed potential on public roadways. I knew I had to sell it so I wouldn't kill myself, and I did (sell it). Maybe it's because I'm on the north side of 60, I have a little more sense than I did when I was younger. I'm actually happy with the power my Rally Ryker affords in stock trim


    Best,


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    Quote Originally Posted by shakin_jake View Post
    ....... I had to sell it so I wouldn't kill myself, and I did (sell it). .......

    Jake
    Reddick Fla.
    Jeez Jake, for a second there I thought you were gonna tell us that you DID kill yourself on that motorcycle!!


    Glad that's not the case tho!


    And I'd still like a 900 ACE Turbo Ryker - or Spyder for that matter!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Rodriguez View Post
    The 900 Ace Turbo is used in the snowmobiles, the SXS's and I believe the Sea-doo. It's the same 900 engine that's in the Ryker but it has a turbo and some beefier internals to handle the extra power. In the Snowmobile its rated for 150hp. I'd be happy with 125 in the Ryker. Hell, 105 would be better
    Rotax buids in the moment 5 different Versions of the 900 Ace (in Austria !!)

    https://www.rotax.com/de/rotax-motoren.html#2
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