Mystery Solved

[WaltH]

Many of us have experienced excessive wear on the inboard side of the front tires on the GS/RS Spyders. On my first Spyder the unusual wear pattern was apparent before 30,000 miles. When the Spyder died at 36,500 miles, the excessive wear on the inboard side of both tires was very pronounced. On my second Spyder, the same thing happened. I had to replace the front tires at 34,000 miles because the inboard one-half of the tires was no longer safe. I had two different Spyders with the same problem.

On the second Spyder, I replaced the OEM tires with automobile tires. I am using Sumitomo HTR 200 (175/65R14). With 33,000 miles on the new tires, the wear pattern is perfectly even. There is no unusual wear what-so-ever (see pictures below). Other than normal wear and tear, there have been no changes to the Spyder, or to my riding habits.

In my case, the mystery is solved. It is not the machine that causes the problem. It is the low quality OEM tires. Excessive inboard wear goes away with the change to automobile tires. I will post pictures of the Sumitomo tires when they are ultimately replaced.

My rear tires have been BF Goodrich G-Force tires for some time now. I just installed my fourth one. The one it replaced had 22,700 miles (see pictures below). The old tire is on the left, and the new tire is on the right. I would not have replaced the old one just yet, but I am going on a major trip in September.

Under normal circumstances the old tire would have had more miles, but I have not been riding for the past six weeks. It has been just too hot in southern Florida. Never before have I given up riding because it was too hot. I didn’t ride for three weeks last winter because it was too cold in southern Florida. Maybe I am just getting too old for this climate. The only reason I live in Florida is so that I can ride year-around. It doesn’t seem to be working out as well as it has in the past.

[duneside]

[Lamonster]

That's good to know. How do those tires handle the water compared to stock?

[bjt]

Under normal circumstances the old tire would have had more miles, but I have not been riding for the past six weeks. It has been just too hot in southern Florida. Never before have I given up riding because it was too hot. I didn’t ride for three weeks last winter because it was too cold in southern Florida. Maybe I am just getting too old for this climate. The only reason I live in Florida is so that I can ride year-around. It doesn’t seem to be working out as well as it has in the past.

Time to get a second home up here in Michigan. The warmest we've had to date has been about mid 90s. Right now it's in the low to mid 80s and it's been getting down to the 60s at night. Houses are really reasonable up here nowadays.

[silver fox]

If I may what is your normal speed and what type of rider are you. Would like to know because the use of auto tires my that make a different are you aggress (sp) driver slow going do you do freeway driving or is it just on side street I would like to get these tires what the costs

[WackyDan]

In one picture it looks like you are getting some slight cupping on the tread on the inner edge of the front "passenger" side tire....It might be an illusion of the picture though.

They fit just like OEM or did you have to modify the center alignment of the fenders?

And yes... How are they in the rain and where and how much?

[Bersquack]

34,000 miles with one set of tire is pretty good in my book, but what do I know!

[canam9]

In one picture it looks like you are getting some slight cupping on the tread on the inner edge of the front "passenger" side tire....It might be an illusion of the picture though.

They fit just like OEM or did you have to modify the center alignment of the fenders?

And yes... How are they in the rain and where and how much?

[The_Spyderwoman]

23k on my front tires - no signs of wear.

I ride with several different spyders and they all wear differently.

Very interesting thread!!

curious -- is there a 'toe in'; 'toe out' tolerance on them?

[Blackwidow74]

My Spyder has 17" rims and tires, the only brand to have the size I need is Yokohama. I noticed the tires were wearing more on the inside also. The tires are directional so I had them taken off the rims and switched to the opposite side. I am now almost at 29,000 on this set of tires and counting. I don't mind doing this, car tires are better for the bike in my opinion.

[SpyderWolf]

Has the 175 vs 165 profile had any noticeable effect on your Spyder, either good or bad? I am really wondering about the speed sensors on the front wheels with different sized tires.

[Firefly]

Interesting indeed. I think getting anything over 15-20K on the front tires is amazing. I got about 12K on my first set. Can only get around 8K from the rear-- which is fine with me--- it's worth the fun I have with it....

I ride it like it's stolen most the time---which I'm sure makes a big difference.

Glad you've got good tires that are working for you Walter---- impressive miles with such little wear....

[WackyDan]

Tirerack.com .. $59 each for the fronts.

[WaltH]

I will try to answer some of the questions posed by other owners.

Regarding wet weather performance of the Sumitomo tires, it seems to be at least as good as the OEM tires. However, I don’t really have enough experience to make a proper comparison. In over 100,000 Spyder miles I have only experienced hydroplaning four, maybe five, times. Two of these were when I had OEM tires on the front and rear. Once I had OEM tires on the front, but an automotive tire on the rear. Another time I had automotive tires front and rear. It seems to me that hydroplaning occurs mostly on the rear tire. The remedy is to back off the throttle. Extra precaution is the preventative remedy. Like everyone else, I am very concerned about hydroplaning.

Directional tires are said to be better in wet weather. I think it is essential for the rear tire to be directional, but less so for the front tires. The Sumitomo tires are not directional. This is why I do not use them on the rear. There are good automotive tires on the market which are directional. Because the Sumitomo tires are not directional, they can be rotated without being removed from the wheel. I only rotated them one time (20,000 miles) when the wheels were off anyway because the brake rotors were being replaced. Since it is easily done, I should do it more often.

Regarding possible cupping on the inboard side of the right tire, I cannot find it. Someone said the picture showed possible early signs of cupping. I ran my hand over the tire and didn’t feel anything unusual. I looked at the tire from different angles and didn’t see it. I may want to rotate the tires again, just to be sure. Some cupping occurred in the late stages of the deterioration of OEM tires, particularly on the right tire.

Regarding my riding habits, they are limited to paved roads. I try to avoid dirt roads (makes the motorcycle dirty) and gravel roads (hard on paint and drive belt). My riding is split between touring and cruising. Cruising is done in the country (avoid city traffic when I can). In either case, I am usually going at least the speed limit.

Regarding the practicality of the Sumitomo tires, there were no adjustments necessary. The 175 mm tire fit without changing the fender and did not cause any problems with the speed sensors. I have learned some interesting things about how the Spyder processes speed sensor data. I will post this on a separate thread in the future.

Regarding alternatives to the Sumitomo tires, there are many good choices. I am not suggesting anyone else should necessarily choose the Sumitomo tires over the other good alternatives. There are also size alternatives. I don’t remember what I paid for them, but they were not expensive. It would be a good idea to do some research on the internet. I would pay special attention to the tire specifications including wet weather performance ratings.

[SethO]

I will try to answer some of the questions posed by other owners.

Regarding wet weather performance of the Sumitomo tires, it seems to be at least as good as the OEM tires. However, I don’t really have enough experience to make a proper comparison. In over 100,000 Spyder miles I have only experienced hydroplaning four, maybe five, times. Two of these were when I had OEM tires on the front and rear. Once I had OEM tires on the front, but an automotive tire on the rear. Another time I had automotive tires front and rear. It seems to me that hydroplaning occurs mostly on the rear tire. The remedy is to back off the throttle. Extra precaution is the preventative remedy. Like everyone else, I am very concerned about hydroplaning.

Directional tires are said to be better in wet weather. I think it is essential for the rear tire to be directional, but less so for the front tires. The Sumitomo tires are not directional. This is why I do not use them on the rear. There are good automotive tires on the market which are directional. Because the Sumitomo tires are not directional, they can be rotated without being removed from the wheel. I only rotated them one time (20,000 miles) when the wheels were off anyway because the brake rotors were being replaced. Since it is easily done, I should do it more often.

Regarding possible cupping on the inboard side of the right tire, I cannot find it. Someone said the picture showed possible early signs of cupping. I ran my hand over the tire and didn’t feel anything unusual. I looked at the tire from different angles and didn’t see it. I may want to rotate the tires again, just to be sure. Some cupping occurred in the late stages of the deterioration of OEM tires, particularly on the right tire.

Regarding my riding habits, they are limited to paved roads. I try to avoid dirt roads (makes the motorcycle dirty) and gravel roads (hard on paint and drive belt). My riding is split between touring and cruising. Cruising is done in the country (avoid city traffic when I can). In either case, I am usually going at least the speed limit.

Regarding the practicality of the Sumitomo tires, there were no adjustments necessary. The 175 mm tire fit without changing the fender and did not cause any problems with the speed sensors. I have learned some interesting things about how the Spyder processes speed sensor data. I will post this on a separate thread in the future.

Regarding alternatives to the Sumitomo tires, there are many good choices. I am not suggesting anyone else should necessarily choose the Sumitomo tires over the other good alternatives. There are also size alternatives. I don’t remember what I paid for them, but they were not expensive. It would be a good idea to do some research on the internet. I would pay special attention to the tire specifications including wet weather performance ratings.

I had a set of bridgestones that were not directional and at over 100 mph with the stock shocks it would tank slap and go into limp mode, I do agree that that stock tires are ass but I wonder how they would work if I rode with them flat out. I did put my butt stock tires that were worn out back on and returned the bridgestone gumballs and no more tank slap at high speeds, I guess after I burn thru my last set of fronts I will have to find a directional replacement.

I hyroplane all the time in really wet weather, I have a kumdo rear and its one drawback is its wet weather issue.

When I was in florida last January it was cool out at best, I would move somewhere with roads that are not straight and flat, it was similar to a warm North Dakota.

wondered if you RAN er 90 what they would do.

[Roadkill]

+Just fyi, Seth, I've had no handling or wear concerns with both aggressive riding and +century speeds with my combination of stock-sized front Bridgestone Potenzas (12k) and rear Falken ZIEX ZE912 (-2k).

Ride on.
Roadkill

[docdoru]

Interesting indeed. I think getting anything over 15-20K on the front tires is amazing.

Changed the first front tires @ 60K.
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...3&postcount=24

[NancysToy]

Changed the first front tires @ 60K.
http://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/s...3&postcount=24

Not fair! As fast as you ride, they hardly ever touch the ground.

[WaltH]

In one picture it looks like you are getting some slight cupping on the tread on the inner edge of the front "passenger" side tire....It might be an illusion of the picture though.

Yesterday, I had one of my Harley mechanics prepare my Spyder for its upcoming trip to California on Route 66. While I was there, I asked him about your observation. He agrees with you, so we rotated the tires (non-directional). I don't know if this will do any good. We shall see.

I will be sure to post the ultimate disposition of these tires, including pictures.

[WackyDan]

Yesterday, I had one of my Harley mechanics prepare my Spyder for its upcoming trip to California on Route 66. While I was there, I asked him about your observation. He agrees with you, so we rotated the tires (non-directional). I don't know if this will do any good. We shall see.

I will be sure to post the ultimate disposition of these tires, including pictures.

YAY! I was finally right about something this week! ( At your expense).

Cupping isn't bad depending who you ask and it greatly depends on where the cupping is happening...Generally, if it is uniform on the whole tire/tread, I think most accept it as liveable, but one sided like yours might be worth keeping an eye on. For the load of the Spyder on a car tire, I presume that other than some road noise or vibration from that tire you might have nothing to worry about.

That said... The cupping blows a small whole in your theory... While I think you are correct that the stock fronts are el'cheapo, it seems that same inner wear issue is happening with your new front car tires... So that logically points to an issue other than just tires alone. So it has to be either alignment or the suspension. Given you had two different Spyders with the same issue, either you had two Spyders out of alignment, or there is something about the Spyder suspension that is lacking for use with the design of the Spyder? Agree or disagree?

Either way... You did solve a mystery, We know that after market tires wear better than the stock tires, but that the inner side wear on them is indeed real. Are you going to get your alignment checked? I looked real close at my Fronts with 8500 miles and already notice they are wearing more on the inside.

For those that didn't pick it out in the picture... Look at the right side of the tire. The treads look kinda snaggle toothed... That is cupping.




From the web....

Cupping, or "scalloping" of the tires on a vehicle is a primary concern for any driver. Cupping is when a vehicle's tires are exposed to more wear and tear than normal in one of a variety of ways. Cupping can be resultant of a repair issue or from low quality tires and needs to be recognized for the hazardous condition it is.

1. What Is Cupping?
2. Cupping is when a vehicle's tires have indentations in them. Cupping is caused by worse than normal wear, tear and pressure on the surface of the tire that takes small pieces and sections of the tires surface off. The remaining spots are smoothed during driving so they're called "cupping" as opposed to "chipping." Cupping may be referred to by some professionals as "scalloping."
   
   Driving on tires that are cupping is not a safe scenario for drivers since there is less contact between the surface of the tire and that of the road. Less contact means less traction and control for starting and stopping.What Causes Cupping in Tires?
3. The majority of cases of cupping happens in inexpensive low-quality tires. Higher quality tires are better able to resist chipping by the environment that causes cupping in cheaper tires. Consumers should have high quality tires installed on their vehicles.Another Cause of Cupping
4. Even if the tires are higher quality, and cupping still occurs, the problem might be with an errant suspension on the vehicle. If the suspension on a vehicle allows for the tires to bounce, as the vehicle rolls along, the extra action will make scuff marks on the tires, resulting in cupping.
   
   Unfortunately, when the cause is the suspension, a qualified mechanic must replace the suspension and the tires. Since there's a risk of the cause being a serious repair like suspension, having a mechanic check the vehicle is often worth the expense, in spite of the time it will take.Odd Cupping Situations
5. If the tires experiencing cupping are on the rear only, the cause of the problem may just be with the vehicle's alignment. Fortunately, in such cases, purchasing new tires and an alignment adjustment is more economical than replacing suspension and tires. If in doubt as to the condition your tires, take your vehicle to a qualified mechanic.Two Easy Ways to Note a Problem With Your Tires
6. Look for indentations and an uneven surface that resembles "scallops" in the tread of the tire, where a driver should expect to see a smooth surface. You also might notice a slight rumbling sound as the vehicle moves. This sound most likely comes from the cupped spots on the tires. If either of these situations are noticed, take your vehicle to a trained mechanic.

Read more: The Causes of Cupping Tires | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5509983_ca...#ixzz0yPEXyl6y

[spyryder]

I kinda thought it looked featheredged....rounded on one side and sharp on the other.
http://www.procarcare.com/includes/c...dtirewear.html

[WaltH]

It would be nice to hear from other Spyder owners who have experienced excessive wear on the inboard side of both tires. From time-to-time, there have been comments on this site concerning this problem.

I agree that my theory is in jeopardy, if I eventually get the same wear pattern as the OEM tires. With the OEM tires the cupping seemed to come in stage two. First, the tires showed excessive wear on the inboard side. Then the cupping appeared, mostly on the right side tire. I will watch these tires more carefully than I did the originals.

To my knowledge, there are no possible alignment adjustments on the Spyder for caster, or camber, only toe. Camber would seem to be the culprit for inboard wear. Of course, other factors could be present.

From day-one on both Spyders I carried maximum pre-load on the shocks. When I converted to RT shocks (on a GS), I went to position four. The reduction in body roll would be a good trad-off for tire wear, if that were the case.

I wonder how this compares with what others have experienced.

[retired1]

I've got 7800 miles on my RTS. I've had the toe adjusted per service bulletin. This was at about 4700 miles. I just noticed the front tires wearing on the inside. I ran my hand around the tire, but could not feel any "cupping" happening yet. I'm having the rear tire replaced next week, hopefully, at the dealer. At that time I'll have them look at the front tires and get their opinion on the problem. I don't expect that they will offer to recheck the toe, because of the time involved in getting it set for recheck. They probably got paid for the first time, but will not be willing to absorb the time for the recheck.
When I traded my GS for the RTS it had 9600 miles with very little wear showing on the front tires and wear bars still visible on the rear.

[effgjamis]

I think one has overlooked the possibility of TIRE embalance to cause cupping etc.
I have relative new tires on the front and regarless what was done they, tire peeps, could not get them balanced.
Come to fine our they had a run out problem.. ALL 3 TIRES? What are the odds of that happing? But new tires resolved the problem I had.

[WaltH]

I put new tires on the front today - same tires as above. I had 42,000 miles on the old ones. Pictures of the old tires are below.

The pictures seem to support my hypothesis that the excessive wear on the OEM tires was due to the poor quality of the OEM tires and was not due to characteristics of the Spyder.

There was a small amount (1/32 inches) of extra wear on the inboard side of both tires. This is nothing like my experience with the OEM tires.

With the new ones, I will try rotating to get a more even wear pattern.