Blackstone Labs Oil Analysis

[RICZ]

PMK....Has 540rat tested Rotella T-6? If he has, can you give us a Readers Digest version of what he said about it? Pretty please!

[PMK]

PMK....Has 540rat tested Rotella T-6? If he has, can you give us a Readers Digest version of what he said about it? Pretty please!

He has, it rated well below Mobil 1 10w40 Racing Motorcycle oil. But the flip side is the Rotella T6 is a lot less money than Mobil 1.

Truthfully, you should take the time and read the details for yourself. I learned about 540Rat from another Spyder person here on Spyderlovers during a discussion about zinc additives. I was always schooled that zinc was good. The 540Rt has all sorts of test data about zinc and honestly I learned I was wrong. Sadly, my previous knowledge was based on oil manufacturers and engine manufacturers info. 540Rats testing taught me otherwise.

[h0gr1der]

Not to be contrary, but I disagree somewhat here. If you get 1 test and it shows that your oil has sheered down from the rated 40 weight to 20 weight. I'd say that information alone is worth the $28.00 for the test. By the same token. If it shows that you went from 40 weight to 36, that is also valuable information. All oils suffer over the miles. It's how much they degrade that this analysis can tell you on the first test. Not only that. But Blackstone, and most other services, will tell you what their extensive database shows as a good report average in each category to compare your results to. This also gives you a valuable status report on how things are going inside on the very first test. If you have an outlier, that will show up. Blackstone also gives recommendations based upon the test results. As in, 'You need to change your oil sooner. Or, 'You can go miles on this oil'. Or, 'You're service interval is just about right for this application'.

Granted. To get the most out of this tool it needs to be used with each oil service, because trends and comparison are the strong points here. But even just 1 analysis can be very useful. As always, just my opinion.

I've never used Blackstone, but I often wondered if the guys doing our industrial testing for all our engines were ever competent. We'd send in a diesel engine oil sample, black and thin from fuel contamination, having reached borderline on the last sample, only to have it come back as good to go for another xxx time period. Go figure! Makes me wonder.

[Highwayman2013]

I think it is pretty simple to figure if two oils are rated 40 weights and one doesn't stay a 40 then it doesn't hold up as well.

[PMK]

I think it is pretty simple to figure if two oils are rated 40 weights and one doesn't stay a 40 then it doesn't hold up as well.

Related, and more critical than engine oil is suspension fluid. As a suspension tuner, we purchase suspension fluid by viscosity listed as weight. As an example 5wt.

Sadly, because the range of what determines SAE 5wt is wide and varied, I must resort to other more accurate measurements of viscosity. This is why the common reference of Cst at 40* and 100* is used. Much more accurate and consistent.

With suspension fluid, I typically use a well respected chart of various brands and wts to compare when rebuilding rear shocks or forks. Very common to see some 5 wts as thin as some 2 1/2 wts, and some 5 wts in the 7 1/2 wt range. Altering race bike suspension by this amount is not good, as the internal valving was setup specifically for the riders ability and their riding weight, plus the track.

So, leaning back to your reference to SAE 40wt oil. When new, it is quite possible one brand is on the upper viscosity end of SAE 40 when new, while the second brand may be rated 40wt but begins at a truer lower viscosity when compared by Cst rating.

So important to know what new viscosity is compared to your oil analysis sample.

[BajaRon]

I've never used Blackstone, but I often wondered if the guys doing our industrial testing for all our engines were ever competent. We'd send in a diesel engine oil sample, black and thin from fuel contamination, having reached borderline on the last sample, only to have it come back as good to go for another xxx time period. Go figure! Makes me wonder.

I can't speak to what appears to be a testing inconsistency here. Could have been a miss labeled sample if you are doing quite a few. Or, miss handled at the lab. But I can tell you that all diesel oil is going to be black pretty quick after an oil change. Here is what one diesel website states. 'It is normal for diesel motor oil to turn black quickly. The dark color is a sign that the oil is performing correctly by keeping byproducts of the combustion process in suspension. Higher fuel injection pressures in newer diesel engines produce lower exhaust emissions, but produce more soot. This quickly turns diesel motor oil black. In fact, it would be abnormal for the oil to stay clear.'

Related, and more critical than engine oil is suspension fluid. As a suspension tuner, we purchase suspension fluid by viscosity listed as weight. As an example 5wt.

Sadly, because the range of what determines SAE 5wt is wide and varied, I must resort to other more accurate measurements of viscosity. This is why the common reference of Cst at 40* and 100* is used. Much more accurate and consistent.

With suspension fluid, I typically use a well respected chart of various brands and wts to compare when rebuilding rear shocks or forks. Very common to see some 5 wts as thin as some 2 1/2 wts, and some 5 wts in the 7 1/2 wt range. Altering race bike suspension by this amount is not good, as the internal valving was setup specifically for the riders ability and their riding weight, plus the track.

So, leaning back to your reference to SAE 40wt oil. When new, it is quite possible one brand is on the upper viscosity end of SAE 40 when new, while the second brand may be rated 40wt but begins at a truer lower viscosity when compared by Cst rating.

So important to know what new viscosity is compared to your oil analysis sample.

You are 100% right about this. I used to do a lot of dirt bike riding and changing out fork fluid (and sometimes rebuilding rear shocks) can be a real eye opener as viscosities are all over the map. You can't trust them. You can get 3 different brands of the same viscosity and they will perform much different, which they should not. And you are right again about motor oils. There is a spread for each weight. If the oil falls within a certain range, it's called 40 weight. Even if it's actually only a 36 weight to begin with. Knowing this will help you determine how much it has degraded from the starting point. But this is not as important as the final test sample number as 20 weight is 20 weight, regardless of where it started out.

[troop]

Other than my owned since new 2009 H-D FLHT, my last two bikes prior to my Spyder were a Yamaha FZ09 and Triumph 800 Tiger XCx. Since those bikes both used 10w40, I started collecting oil on sale/clearance. I accumulated quite a stash over time, with at one point, having about 20 quarts on hand. All good stuff, with the current stash being Castrol 10w40 Actevo partial syn, Castrol Power 1 10w50, M1 4T10w40 and Quicksilver 10w40 full syn m/c. I paid as low as $2.50/qt for the Quicksilver, and as high as $5/quart for the Castrol Power 1 10w/50. I was glad to read on BITOG/here that 10w40 is, generally, the go to oil as I still had quite a stash of it. My current/end of season change is: (1.5)qts Castrol 10w40 Actevo syn blend, (2)qts M1 10w40 4t and (2)qts Quicksilver 10w40 m/c syn. Thinking come the end of the season, I'll send it in and see how it looks. Might have 5k miles or it might have 8k, but I'll be interested. On a side note, what is up with Can-Am and BRP with oil change capacities ?? 2018, 2019 and 2020 SE6 models all have different capacities !!
2018:
MODEL WHEN
DOING... QUANTITY
Engine oil
and engine
oil filter
replacement
4.7 L
(5 qt (U.S. liq.))
SE6 Engine oil,
engine
oil filter
and HCM
surface
filter
replacement
4.9 L
(5.2 qt (U.S. liq.


2019:
OIL CAPACITY
MODEL WHEN
DOING... QUANTITY
Engine oil
and engine
oil filter
replacement
5.2 L
(5.5 qt (U.S. liq.))
SE6 Engine oil,
engine
oil filter
and HCM
surface
filter
replacement
5.4 L
(5.7 qt (U.S. liq.))


2020 SE6:
IL CAPACITY
MODEL WHEN
DOING... QUANTITY
Engine oil
and engine
oil filter
replacement
4.7 L
(5.0 qt (U.S. liq.))
SE6 Engine oil,
engine
oil filter
and HCM
surface
filter
replacement
4.9 L
(5.2 qt (U.S. liq.))

And, PMK, I hear you on suspension viscosity. Dealt with that on my suspension upgrades on my FZ09 and 800 Tiger. Oil weights are not created equal
http://mahonkin.com/~milktree/motorcycle/fork-oil.html

[PMK]

I have and it came out great. Much better than Mobil 1. Amsoil on the left Mobil 1 on the right. 1,000 more miles on the Amsoil.

Highwayman, always appreciate you sharing info and asking questions.

Looking at your oil sample sheet, Blackstone lists the oils initial viscosity range in the 11.6 / 14.8 range. I went to the Mobil and Amsoil website, gathering the manufacturers data for Cst @ 100*c.

Amsoil claims the 10w40 synthetic motorcycle oil when new is 14.6 Cst @ 100*c
Mobil claims the 10w40 motorcycle oil when new is 13.4 Cst @ 100*c

With that basis, the Amsoil begins life more viscous, even though 40wt, when compared to Mobil 1.

Using Blackstones range of 11.6 to 14.8, it is apparent that the Amsoil starts very near the upper limit of Blackstones 40wt criteria, while Mobil 1 falls into a point just above the median point.

When comparing the used oil values, we expect the thicker oil to typically survive better. Granted the Amsoil has more miles on it and makes a perfect comparison impossible.

Your results indicate the Amsoil sheared from 14.6 to 13.06, so a drop of 1.54 Cst @ 100* c
Your results indicate the Mobil 1 sheared from 13.4 to 11.45, so a drop of 1.95 Cst @ 100*c

Because the Mobil 1 sheared below Blackstones range of 11.6, the rating of 11.45 Cst put it just under their 40 wt range and had the results shown as bold.

Knowing the Mobil started with a lower viscosity, and knowing lower viscosity tends to shear more easily, but it did have fewer miles, the results seem good.

Same with Amsoil, it started life more viscous, should hold up better on account of being more viscous, had a bit more miles, it showed slightly, and I mean very slightly better results.

That said, both oils seem good. I will say the Mobil is more truly a 40 wt, while the Amsoil leans well towards a lower range 50 wt.

My point in all this, as I learned long ago as a suspension tuner, SAE viscosity is a very wide range, while Kinematic viscosity is quite precise. There is more science in all of it without doubt.

I do wait for the test from 540rat that maybe someday he tests the Amsoil 10w40. I believe the Amsoil will do well on the wear test and we may find that these two oils, priced similar, are both excellent oils that are JASO MA and MA2 rated.

Hoped that helped explain how 40wt can differ a lot.

[PMK]

Other than my owned since new 2009 H-D FLHT, my last two bikes prior to my Spyder were a Yamaha FZ09 and Triumph 800 Tiger XCx. Since those bikes both used 10w40, I started collecting oil on sale/clearance. I accumulated quite a stash over time, with at one point, having about 20 quarts on hand. All good stuff, with the current stash being Castrol 10w40 Actevo partial syn, Castrol Power 1 10w50, M1 4T10w40 and Quicksilver 10w40 full syn m/c. I paid as low as $2.50/qt for the Quicksilver, and as high as $5/quart for the Castrol Power 1 10w/50. I was glad to read on BITOG/here that 10w40 is, generally, the go to oil as I still had quite a stash of it. My current/end of season change is: (1.5)qts Castrol 10w40 Actevo syn blend, (2)qts M1 10w40 4t and (2)qts Quicksilver 10w40 m/c syn. Thinking come the end of the season, I'll send it in and see how it looks. Might have 5k miles or it might have 8k, but I'll be interested. On a side note, what is up with Can-Am and BRP with oil change capacities ?? 2018, 2019 and 2020 SE6 models all have different capacities !!
2018:
MODEL WHEN
DOING... QUANTITY
Engine oil
and engine
oil filter
replacement
4.7 L
(5 qt (U.S. liq.))
SE6 Engine oil,
engine
oil filter
and HCM
surface
filter
replacement
4.9 L
(5.2 qt (U.S. liq.


2019:
OIL CAPACITY
MODEL WHEN
DOING... QUANTITY
Engine oil
and engine
oil filter
replacement
5.2 L
(5.5 qt (U.S. liq.))
SE6 Engine oil,
engine
oil filter
and HCM
surface
filter
replacement
5.4 L
(5.7 qt (U.S. liq.))


2020 SE6:
IL CAPACITY
MODEL WHEN
DOING... QUANTITY
Engine oil
and engine
oil filter
replacement
4.7 L
(5.0 qt (U.S. liq.))
SE6 Engine oil,
engine
oil filter
and HCM
surface
filter
replacement
4.9 L
(5.2 qt (U.S. liq.))

And, PMK, I hear you on suspension viscosity. Dealt with that on my suspension upgrades on my FZ09 and 800 Tiger. Oil weights are not created equal
http://mahonkin.com/~milktree/motorcycle/fork-oil.html

Glad to see your linked document giving credit to Peter for his efforts compiling that viscosity chart.

As for Spyder oil quantities, do not even bother asking. Can Am has been essentially clueless about this for many years. Sort your best method whether it be start low and add when hot, or simply know how much from previous oil changes.

Your post was a bit confusing, sounds like you have plans to mix oils, your call but not something I like seeing done.

[PinkRosePetal]

....On a side note, what is up with Can-Am and BRP with oil change capacities ?? 2018, 2019 and 2020 SE6 models all have different capacities !!
2018:
MODEL WHEN
DOING... QUANTITY
Engine oil
and engine
oil filter
replacement
4.7 L
(5 qt (U.S. liq.))
SE6 Engine oil,
engine
oil filter
and HCM
surface
filter
replacement
4.9 L
(5.2 qt (U.S. liq.


2019:
OIL CAPACITY
MODEL WHEN
DOING... QUANTITY
Engine oil
and engine
oil filter
replacement
5.2 L
(5.5 qt (U.S. liq.))
SE6 Engine oil,
engine
oil filter
and HCM
surface
filter
replacement
5.4 L
(5.7 qt (U.S. liq.))


2020 SE6:
IL CAPACITY
MODEL WHEN
DOING... QUANTITY
Engine oil
and engine
oil filter
replacement
4.7 L
(5.0 qt (U.S. liq.))
SE6 Engine oil,
engine
oil filter
and HCM
surface
filter
replacement
4.9 L
(5.2 qt (U.S. liq.))

Yep, BRP is hopeless. We've got two 2017 bikes and they stipulate different capacities. I go for 5lts for a change including the filter. That's four oil changes from a 20lt drum... easy peasy.

On the viscosity thing, viscosity is not the most important feature of an engine oil, as witnessed by the actual viscosity range in centistokes relative to the labelled viscosity, and it's entirely possible to have an oil which loses a fair bit of viscosity but remains a better lubricant.

[troop]

I just went with what my manual said for oil capacity with filter, 5.5 qts on my 2019 SE6. Looked good on the stick when hot afterwords. Over 40 years of bikes, I mix/matched brands on many occasions. Some with different viscosities, some just different brands. Some agree, some don't agree. It's not a problem with the American Petroleum Institute, but, enough on that

[Highwayman2013]

Yep, BRP is hopeless. We've got two 2017 bikes and they stipulate different capacities. I go for 5lts for a change including the filter. That's four oil changes from a 20lt drum... easy peasy.

On the viscosity thing, viscosity is not the most important feature of an engine oil, as witnessed by the actual viscosity range in centistokes relative to the labelled viscosity, and it's entirely possible to have an oil which loses a fair bit of viscosity but remains a better lubricant.

How would we test for that?

[Highwayman2013]

Highwayman, always appreciate you sharing info and asking questions.

Looking at your oil sample sheet, Blackstone lists the oils initial viscosity range in the 11.6 / 14.8 range. I went to the Mobil and Amsoil website, gathering the manufacturers data for Cst @ 100*c.

Amsoil claims the 10w40 synthetic motorcycle oil when new is 14.6 Cst @ 100*c
Mobil claims the 10w40 motorcycle oil when new is 13.4 Cst @ 100*c

With that basis, the Amsoil begins life more viscous, even though 40wt, when compared to Mobil 1.

Using Blackstones range of 11.6 to 14.8, it is apparent that the Amsoil starts very near the upper limit of Blackstones 40wt criteria, while Mobil 1 falls into a point just above the median point.

When comparing the used oil values, we expect the thicker oil to typically survive better. Granted the Amsoil has more miles on it and makes a perfect comparison impossible.

Your results indicate the Amsoil sheared from 14.6 to 13.06, so a drop of 1.54 Cst @ 100* c
Your results indicate the Mobil 1 sheared from 13.4 to 11.45, so a drop of 1.95 Cst @ 100*c

Because the Mobil 1 sheared below Blackstones range of 11.6, the rating of 11.45 Cst put it just under their 40 wt range and had the results shown as bold.

Knowing the Mobil started with a lower viscosity, and knowing lower viscosity tends to shear more easily, but it did have fewer miles, the results seem good.

Same with Amsoil, it started life more viscous, should hold up better on account of being more viscous, had a bit more miles, it showed slightly, and I mean very slightly better results.

That said, both oils seem good. I will say the Mobil is more truly a 40 wt, while the Amsoil leans well towards a lower range 50 wt.

My point in all this, as I learned long ago as a suspension tuner, SAE viscosity is a very wide range, while Kinematic viscosity is quite precise. There is more science in all of it without doubt.

I do wait for the test from 540rat that maybe someday he tests the Amsoil 10w40. I believe the Amsoil will do well on the wear test and we may find that these two oils, priced similar, are both excellent oils that are JASO MA and MA2 rated.

Hoped that helped explain how 40wt can differ a lot.

So going by your math the Amsoil held up better. I would run either one to 10,000 miles in the spyder.

[PMK]

So going by your math the Amsoil held up better. I’m not saying Mobil 1 is bad it it doesn’t seem to be the best.

Based solely on viscosity change, possibly Amsoil held up better, but as I explained, the Amsoil starts life more viscous, and with that should shear less. So seeing a difference of 0.41 Cst is is in my opinion not even a percentage difference I would be concerned about. I do understand the Amsoil had more hours on it.

Simply to many variables, and the differences are so minute there is no way to offer up a good answer.

As I mentioned, I await the day that 540Rat rates the Amsoil. Then and only then, will we know how the oils compare in prevention of wear.

Regarding viscosity change vs use, they are both very good and differ very little.

The obvious answer though, time will tell.

[carbonation]

You are splitting hairs. Either AmSoil or Mobil 1 are fine. Depends on how long it's in, and riding conditions to say which is finer at any given moment.
BRP apparently expects shear and even blesses it when their oil cannot, will not, stay in grade over their prescribed change interval. Surely, many miles were done in testing, right? BajaRon has a point about an oil analysis and viscosity, I concede to that point of logic.
In my 998, nothing stayed in grade over only 4000 miles. Not AmSoil, not M1, not Liqui-Moly, Amalie, Valvoline MC, Mag-1, Castrol, nothing. All were a 30 weight, a couple were approaching a 20. Only one oil survived that thing. Valvoline straight weight 40 VR-1. Yes, they say, not good for wet clutch. Hogwash. I never had cold starts below 40 degrees, so no need for a multigrade. No VI to shear, stout Zinc and Phosphorus. It just worked. Went in a 40, came out the same way. Never that "BANG" I heard from other Spyders going into reverse, or into first. Just a soft "clunk".
I haven't done anything on this new 1330 yet, but have a change of Motul 7100 coming up, and a change of 300V planned. The 1330 seems to be a bit easier on the lubricant, both in the few oil analysis I've seen, and BRP over 9000 mile expectation.
Interesting read on viscosity.. https://www.machinerylubrication.com...atic-viscosity
And another..https://www.api.org/~/media/Files/Ce...ngine-Oils.pdf
Simple answer, Conventional oils need more VI that can shear to achieve their rated weights, synthetics have a wider range naturally, and may need less VI, so they stay in grade better. Initially, the oil will shear, then stabilize for a while, then thicken over time with contaminant build up. Price point does matter, it would appear that more expensive oils have better components, including more shear stable VI, built in that you will pay for, up to a point.
You got to watch for bargains. AutoZone closed out Castrol Power1 for 2.00 a quart last fall. Massdrop just had Motul 7100 for 44. for 4 liters with free shipping, putting it in the AmSoil range. If you are crazy like me, Valvoline VR-1 goes on sale every spring at NAPA for 4 a quart. Driven HR-6 is a full synthetic mostly GRP III with a dose of PAO. Marketed toward HotRods, but perfect for wet clutch and is always less than 10 mail order.
It's been said. Pick an oil, ride, change, ride some more.

[AeroPilot]

Just another random report with oil change intervals from 5000 to roughly 8000 miles on the Rotella T-6. I probably will sample again on my next change around 58-60,000 miles. Like they say, viscosity is sheared back by the gearbox and is probably the main reason to change the oil earlier than the acceptable 9300 mile or 15000 Km intervals allowed by BRP.

[Deanna777]

Where do I get an" Oil Sample Test Kit" for my spyder?

I'll be putting my spyder into hibernation soon.


Deanna

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Where do I get an" Oil Sample Test Kit" for my spyder?

I'll be putting my spyder into hibernation soon.


Deanna

I buy them at NAPA Auto Parts. You get the sample bottle, a shipping container, and address label. Probably others do it also, but if you send future samples to the same lab the report back will have a comparison of the previous one or two samples. Run the engine for several minutes before you pull the sample to make sure the oil is well mixed so you get a homogeneous sample. You pay shipping cost to send the sample in. I send mine via USPS.

[Deanna777]

I buy them at NAPA Auto Parts. You get the sample bottle, a shipping container, and address label. Probably others do it also, but if you send future samples to the same lab the report back will have a comparison of the previous one or two samples. Run the engine for several minutes before you pull the sample to make sure the oil is well mixed so you get a homogeneous sample. You pay shipping cost to send the sample in. I send mine via USPS.

This will be my first year getting a" Oil Sample Kit".

OK, Thanks for your help.

Considering what is happening now( pandemic), how did you get the oil results back?

Deanna

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

Considering what is happening now( pandemic), how did you get the oil results back?

PDF via email. I made a jpg copy to post here. This is the last one I had done which was in Aug 2020, https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...-OK-check-mark! Post #4 shows results for three tests. The 2019 and 2020 samples are for the same oil. I wish I would have had a test on the new oil I put in. That way the next sample will give a good picture of of the change from new. I probably won't change it until next summer which means it'll have around 8 to 10k miles plus two winters on it.

[Deanna777]

PDF via email. I made a jpg copy to post here. This is the last one I had done which was in Aug 2020, https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/...-OK-check-mark! Post #4 shows results for three tests. The 2019 and 2020 samples are for the same oil. I wish I would have had a test on the new oil I put in. That way the next sample will give a good picture of of the change from new. I probably won't change it until next summer which means it'll have around 8 to 10k miles plus two winters on it.

When I get a chance I'll post the results that I get on this thread. I use Valvoline Full Synthetic 4T motorcycle oil ( for the wet clutch systems) .


I checked the link.

Deanna