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  1. #76
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    Fight nice boys.

  2. #77
    Very Active Member ARtraveler's Avatar
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    Let's go back to being civil. It's only wheel alignment that is being discussed.

    Currently Owned: 2019 F3 Limited, 2020 F3 Limited: SOLD BOTH LIMITEDS in October of 2023.

    Previously : 2008 GS-SM5 (silver), 2009 RS-SE5 (red), 2010 RT-S Premier Editon #474 (black) 2011 RT A&C SE5 (magnesium) 2014 RTS-SE6 (yellow)

    MY FINAL TALLY: 7 Spyders, 15 years, 205,500 miles

    IT HAS BEEN A LONG, WONDERFUL, AND FUN RIDE.
    2020 F3L , Magma Red

  3. #78
    Very Active Member jcthorne's Avatar
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    It is important to zero the steering angle sensor AND the DPS torque input sensor at the same point the toe vector is adjusted to. Otherwise the DPS will actually cause the bike to veer off straight ahead. Intentionally setting these two sensors wrong can actually make a Spyder track in a circle with zero rider input to the bars. IE all three items need to be zero at the same physical point for the bike to track well with little rider input. The bike will not track straight if the DPS is pushing it off center.

    Blue Flame Spyder F3-S
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  4. #79
    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    I don't know for sure but it makes sense to me that a long radius turn at high speed will prompt more assist than a short radius turn at slow speed.
    Quote Originally Posted by PinkRosePetal View Post
    I would have thought it would be the opposite.
    Your comeback prompts me to either prove my point or prepare to eat crow. I get to do a little of both!
    From the 2013 RT service manual.

    DPS 1.JPG DPS 2.JPG

    I have to eat crow and admit I was wrong above when I said the steering assist depended on steering torque, not steering angle. Steering angle is one of the parameters that the DPS uses to calculate the assist, as is also speed. The service manual doesn't describe the degree to which each of the inputs has an effect, but the implication is that steering torque is the primary one. That's the parameter that stuck in my mind. So let's see why steering torque varies as I surmise above.

    Centripetal force is the force exerted on a body to keep it turning toward the center of the curve. It is a function of the mass of the turning body, the square of the tangential velocity of that body, and the radius of the turn. If mass and radius stay constant the force quadruples when the speed doubles. F(centripetal) = m x V**2/r. Since we want to compare the force of the same mass at two different speeds at two different radii, F(long)/F(short), mass cancels out. The formula then becomes F(long)/F(short) = V(long)**2/V(short)**2 x r(short)/r(long). So let's put in 30 mph and 50 feet for the short turn and 60 mph and 100 feet for the long turn. It doesn't matter if we use imperial or metric numbers since the units cancel out.

    F(long)/F(short) = 60**2/30**2 x 50/100 = 3600/900 x 1/2 = 4 x 1/2 = 2. You can see the centripetal force, which is supplied to the tires by steering torque, keeping them turned toward the inside of the curve, is twice as great at 60 mph and 100 ft than at 30 mph and 50 feet. What we don't know, since BRP doesn't tell us, is how much the short turn steering torque assist is increased because of the slower speed and sharper steering angle. If, in fact, there is greater steering assist at the tighter turn at slower speed, it's because of the algorithm BRP uses and not because of the dynamic forces on the bike. Interesting, isn't it?

    2014 Copper RTS

    Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
    2014 RTS , Copper! (officially Cognac)

  5. #80
    Very Active Member Jetfixer's Avatar
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    And to get trivial, the more the steering angle is wrong, the more you are trying to hold it straight with help from the DPS system. The more torque you apply to the handlebars, the higher the current draw of the DPS. That equates to more load on the alternator, which means more fuel consumption.
    2020 RT Limited , Marsala Red

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    Interesting, isn't it?
    Hehe..I think you're off on a tangent! Pun intended! Consider the force required to rotate the tyre contact patch to a new position for steering to take place.

    Happy new year!
    Rule#2: Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level & then beat you with experience.
    Rule#1: Refer to rule #2.

  7. #82
    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkRosePetal View Post
    Hehe..I think you're off on a tangent! Pun intended! Consider the force required to rotate the tyre contact patch to a new position for steering to take place.

    Happy new year!
    In the curve the tire contact patch is not rotating with respect to the Spyder, but it is with respect to the center of the turn. In this case it is one of the components of the friction force pushing the Spyder to the center of the curve. In any case the force to turn the wheels to begin the turn is minuscule compared to the force required to push the Spyder to the center, I say.

    2014 Copper RTS

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    2014 RTS , Copper! (officially Cognac)

  8. #83
    SpyderLovers Sponsor merlot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkRosePetal View Post
    If the lasers are parallel to the ground, a target placed in front of and square to the vehicle alignment centre, can be marked at the laser dots. If the target is then moved by the required toe distance (wheel rim diameter for me) then the difference between the dot spacing on the target equals the toe distance.
    i just tried this method and it worked a treat
    i shoot front and back at 3metres then divide the difference by 12(i use 0.5m as my wheel width)to give toe
    i have a fine line laser which is needed when trying to measure 1.5mm using your method
    my method allows for a bit more error as i am looking for 19-25mm difference(1.5mm toe) which can easily be seen even with a fat dot laser

    would work well for a confined space

    russ
    pres ride
    2014 RT-S
    bike is WIP
    bike has endured elect spike (was jump started incorrectly)
    still a WIP but bike is now running and registered....swapped out 5 modules mostly sourced from Canadian wrecker

  9. #84
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindsayw148 View Post

    The main issue is to avoid that camber error

    (try measuring the error in an extremely flat triangle that long and you'll suffer brain damage)
    If it matters to anyone, these measurements of camber angle influence that Lindsay indicated were difficult to measure are posted below. Based on 270mm axle center height.

    0.0* camber = 0.0 correction
    1.0* camber = 4.71mm
    2.0* camber = 9.43mm

  10. #85
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    The above offsets apply as well to when using a machinist square to transfer the laser line to the floor. The machinist square must be leveled so that the edge of the scale is truly plumb.

    This assumes that the floor is more or less level and has local out of level areas where the machinist square may be placed.
    Last edited by Eckhard; 01-01-2020 at 10:16 AM. Reason: Added second paragraph.
    Eckhard

    Spyder RT Ltd, 2011
    2011 RT Ltd. , Pearl White

  11. #86
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eckhard View Post
    The above offsets apply as well to when using a machinist square to transfer the laser line to the floor. The machinist square must be leveled so that the edge of the scale is truly plumb.
    According to Lindsay, the horizontal laser, small base machinist square and so forth eliminate the issue.

    I agree, the floor surface must be true so as not to induce error in the square.

    The difficult item to understand though, is if small amounts of camber induce error Lindsay does not approve of, having a front wheel toed in or toed out a random amount will move the machinist square inboard or outboard, altering his base track width dimension. He then uses that dimension with incoming toe error to establish rear target locations.

    As he says many happy owners and it is good enough.

  12. #87
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    What brand of lasers are you fellows using on your setups?
    Eckhard

    Spyder RT Ltd, 2011
    2011 RT Ltd. , Pearl White

  13. #88
    Very Active Member Jetfixer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eckhard View Post
    What brand of lasers are you fellows using on your setups?
    I use Powersmith PLTL320. Has dot and line generator and magnetic base.
    2020 RT Limited , Marsala Red

  14. #89
    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetfixer View Post
    I use Powersmith PLTL320. Has dot and line generator and magnetic base.
    How do you mount it to send the beam forward and backward? From what I read in the instructions the only approved mounting position is for the beam to shine to the left. Do you just stick it to a plate with the magnets on the backside like Lindsay shows and then turn it upside down to shine to the right? Looking at laser levels on Amazon, Home Depot, etc., it looks like most all of them are intended to be used with beam shining to the left. None of the instructions I looked at show shining the beam to the right.

    2014 Copper RTS

    Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
    2014 RTS , Copper! (officially Cognac)

  15. #90
    Member lindsayw148's Avatar
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    • the beam shining to the left or right: I use lasers with magnets on the bottom so they get used on the standoffs (which have a flat steel plate like a pie-dish, parallel to the brake discs), and are lying on their sides, so laser up-down inaccuracy becomes side-to-side inaccuracy. Calibrating the lasers ignores side-to-side because that won’t matter for alignment purposes. But they are carefully calibrated for up-down, relative to the magnetic base (I use the entire length of my house, and both beams hitting the far wall exactly alongside each other). Just attach the lasers to the standoff pointing the opposite way.

    • With incoming errors in alignment, pointing the lasers to the rear to get a width measurement means the distance from the center of the front wheel to the rear rim is the span where existing alignment errors will be unintentionally incorporated in the measurement – that’s HALF a wheel diameter. Average toe-in or toe-out on most Spyders is in the order of 0.7mm toe-in to about 0.5mm toe-out at rest. The error over that very short distance is so small that it is insignificant – using a tape, you can’t measure that accurately, and a laser dot is about 1mm diameter. Just avoid parallax error and the width measurement will be so close to accurate that it doesn’t make any difference.

    • The major difference I recommend is to use MORE toe-in than BRP specifies. Instead of 0.5mm across-the-wheel (which translates to 2.5mm at the targets, which magnify the angle by 5). That tiny amount of toe-in is not enough to compensate for natural spread IN MOTION, so that many bikes creep into a small amount of toe-out, and that deadly wandering, skittery steering problem. The RT is a fairly heavy bike so I aim for about 10mm toe-in AT THE TARGETS for an average load, or 8mm at the targets for any of the lighter models. That’s between 1.5mm to 2.0mm across-the-wheel.

    • Obviously yes, you must perform alignments on a FLAT floor. The vertical edge of the square on the floor must be plumb, but you won’t be aligning your bike in a paddock. Not a problem.

    • Spyders and Rykers, like any other vehicle, are assembled on a production line from components that have been built on jigs, so are individually accurate. But the way they get bolted or welded together introduces small errors, so the sort of alignment issues you will face are handlebar centering errors and fairly small wheel alignment errors. It ain’t rocket-science, and the results tell their own story – a well-aligned Spyder is a joy to ride, a poorly-aligned one is a pig.
    Lindsay, originally on a 'poor-man's-ST'... an '08 RS with all the after-market bells and whistles, but now on a '16 F3, furiously adding bells and whistles.
    Sunny Queensland in Australia.

  16. #91
    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindsayw148 View Post
    • the beam shining to the left or right: I use lasers with magnets on the bottom so they get used on the standoffs (which have a flat steel plate like a pie-dish, parallel to the brake discs), and are lying on their sides, so laser up-down inaccuracy becomes side-to-side inaccuracy. Calibrating the lasers ignores side-to-side because that won’t matter for alignment purposes. But they are carefully calibrated for up-down, relative to the magnetic base (I use the entire length of my house, and both beams hitting the far wall exactly alongside each other). Just attach the lasers to the standoff pointing the opposite way.
    I take it then the lasers are not free floating inside the level, i.e., they are adjustable up/down with screws with respect to the magnetic base but not free to move as they would be in a self leveling laser. Those you would not want to use on their side, would you?

    2014 Copper RTS

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    2014 RTS , Copper! (officially Cognac)

  17. #92
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    I take it then the lasers are not free floating inside the level, i.e., they are adjustable up/down with screws with respect to the magnetic base but not free to move as they would be in a self leveling laser. Those you would not want to use on their side, would you?
    Mine are essentially a bubble level with a rigid mounted laser in the end, pointed longitudinally, same as the levels body. Typically, most of these quality laser levels have calibration adjustments. Once aligned, the screws are tightened and the laser is rigidly secured.

  18. #93
    Member lindsayw148's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Mine are essentially a bubble level with a rigid mounted laser in the end, pointed longitudinally, same as the levels body. Typically, most of these quality laser levels have calibration adjustments. Once aligned, the screws are tightened and the laser is rigidly secured.
    Yes, although in my case the lasers did not have that up-down adjustment. Ccol on this forum does alignments in the area fairly near the village where I live, and he uses Bosch lasers, which do have that adjustment. I had to adjust mine the long way, using epoxy resin on the base of one laser then sanding it back until it was exactly the same as the other – it was only a gnat's whisker out but not perfect. I was lucky that one of the two was dead accurate in the up-down plane... otherwise I would simply have bought some Bosch lasers.
    Lindsay, originally on a 'poor-man's-ST'... an '08 RS with all the after-market bells and whistles, but now on a '16 F3, furiously adding bells and whistles.
    Sunny Queensland in Australia.

  19. #94
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindsayw148 View Post
    Yes, although in my case the lasers did not have that up-down adjustment. Ccol on this forum does alignments in the area fairly near the village where I live, and he uses Bosch lasers, which do have that adjustment. I had to adjust mine the long way, using epoxy resin on the base of one laser then sanding it back until it was exactly the same as the other – it was only a gnat's whisker out but not perfect. I was lucky that one of the two was dead accurate in the up-down plane... otherwise I would simply have bought some Bosch lasers.
    At a guess, your friend uses these?

    https://www.boschtools.com/us/en/bos...l-1-p-50826-p/

  20. #95
    Active Member seaweed's Avatar
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    There are two items of interest in this discussion that I have not seen addressed sufficiently.

    1) Toe in compare to weight of rider(s) and possibility of towing a camper. Should there be a difference in toe-in for a single rider weight (say 150 lb. vs a heavy rider around the weight of 250 lb.)? Also if normally a single rider compared to normally 2 up. If normally pulling a trailer should this matter for amount of toe-in?

    2) I have seen the comments of "locking the handlebars in place ", "locking down the handlebars", "the bars are straight", "locking down the bars". As far as I know there is no locking mechanism on the Spyders to lock the handlebars in a center position. The only method that I have seen used is to stand in the back of the bike and look at the handlebars to see if they look like they are equally left and right. This does not seem to be a accurate method. Try this experiment: Ride on a level surface (about the length of a football field and aim at an object at the far end of the area. Now get off the bike without disturbing the placement of the handlebars. Stand at the rear of the bike and look at the handlebars. Do the look like they are perpendicular to the travel of the path that you took??

    Perhaps after taking that ride, a better method is to measure the ends of the handle bars to a fixed point on the bike. Take a length of cord, tie a loop in one end and place in over a location on the handlebar, and mark or hold the point where the other end of the cord touches a point on the bike (like a bolt at the rear of the bike). Now take the cord to the other side of the bike and do the same thing. I would venture that there would be a noticeable difference in the length. I have tried this and have seen about 3/4 of an inch difference!!!

    Dean Secord AKA seaweed
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  21. #96
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seaweed View Post
    There are two items of interest in this discussion that I have not seen addressed sufficiently.

    1) Toe in compare to weight of rider(s) and possibility of towing a camper. Should there be a difference in toe-in for a single rider weight (say 150 lb. vs a heavy rider around the weight of 250 lb.)? Also if normally a single rider compared to normally 2 up. If normally pulling a trailer should this matter for amount of toe-in?

    2) I have seen the comments of "locking the handlebars in place ", "locking down the handlebars", "the bars are straight", "locking down the bars". As far as I know there is no locking mechanism on the Spyders to lock the handlebars in a center position. The only method that I have seen used is to stand in the back of the bike and look at the handlebars to see if they look like they are equally left and right. This does not seem to be a accurate method. Try this experiment: Ride on a level surface (about the length of a football field and aim at an object at the far end of the area. Now get off the bike without disturbing the placement of the handlebars. Stand at the rear of the bike and look at the handlebars. Do the look like they are perpendicular to the travel of the path that you took??

    Perhaps after taking that ride, a better method is to measure the ends of the handle bars to a fixed point on the bike. Take a length of cord, tie a loop in one end and place in over a location on the handlebar, and mark or hold the point where the other end of the cord touches a point on the bike (like a bolt at the rear of the bike). Now take the cord to the other side of the bike and do the same thing. I would venture that there would be a noticeable difference in the length. I have tried this and have seen about 3/4 of an inch difference!!!
    IMHO, the engineers at BRP have taken all this into consideration in the suspension design..... Yes it could have been designed to consider ALL the possibilities. … but 99% of the buyers couldn't afford to buy it then, so yes there have been compromises …. bottom line - it works. ….. Mike

  22. #97
    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seaweed View Post
    1) Toe in compare to weight of rider(s) and possibility of towing a camper. Should there be a difference in toe-in for a single rider weight (say 150 lb. vs a heavy rider around the weight of 250 lb.)? Also if normally a single rider compared to normally 2 up. If normally pulling a trailer should this matter for amount of toe-in?

    2) I have seen the comments of "locking the handlebars in place ", "locking down the handlebars", "the bars are straight", "locking down the bars". As far as I know there is no locking mechanism on the Spyders to lock the handlebars in a center position. The only method that I have seen used is to stand in the back of the bike and look at the handlebars to see if they look like they are equally left and right. This does not seem to be a accurate method.
    Here are three bits of the factory prescribed procedure from the 2013 RT service manual. The first two deal with locking the handlebar.

    Steering align lock.jpg Steering align lock tool.JPG Steering align lock 2.JPG

    These instructions aren't in the 2014 service manual but I think that's because the 2014 manual was more or less an addendum to the 2013 manual. Another instruction I have here is the factory method calls for the shocks to be replaced with alignment links during the alignment process. That indicates that BRP does not regard variations in toe-in caused by rider weight, etc., to be significant enough to be accounted for.

    2014 Copper RTS

    Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
    2014 RTS , Copper! (officially Cognac)

  23. #98
    Member lindsayw148's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    At a guess, your friend uses these?
    They look like that, yes. Col does alignments in the north-side Brisbane area, and I sometimes ride down to give him a hand if possible – I live about an hour away.

    Quote Originally Posted by seaweed View Post
    As far as I know there is no locking mechanism on the Spyders to lock the handlebars in a center position.
    Unlike the Ryker, yes. Custom bars make strapping them dead straight during alignment hard, as do items like backrests, but read the step-by-step instruction PDF for my alignment kit (link in an earlier post) and a fairly accurate method is described there.
    Lindsay, originally on a 'poor-man's-ST'... an '08 RS with all the after-market bells and whistles, but now on a '16 F3, furiously adding bells and whistles.
    Sunny Queensland in Australia.

  24. #99
    Very Active Member Wildrice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12tree View Post
    I have a 2010 RT with 17,000 M.

    I am prepared to be corrected, so don't hold back.
    As I understand it, the Spyder front end alignment is for "toe in" only. There is no adjustment for caster or camber. Correct ?
    If this is correct, I do not understand the big deal about a laser front end alignment.
    Does this just use a laser measuring device in lieu of a ruler ?
    If this is the case, I would really question the necessity of a laser.
    If "toe in" specs are available it would seem to me that it could be done with a ruler.
    I am not a Luddite, but I don't like being snookered either.
    I have heard the advertisements for high tech laser back surgery. I understand that the only difference is that the incision is made with a laser instead of a scalpel.
    It sounds impressive though.
    What is the spec for front end alignment?? keep handle bars straight. Toe IN minus /#/inch??
    2015 F3's , two 12 volt power outlets Orange & Black

  25. #100
    Very Active Member Wildrice's Avatar
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    Thanks PinkPetalRosel,
    3 MM Toe in. I know that if one knows the size of the tire & the adjustment show degrees, converting degrees to a length measurement shouldn't be any problem for the math minded/
    Darrell
    2015 F3's , two 12 volt power outlets Orange & Black

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