The fix says the new nuts are solid and not extruded.
That's what I am thinking. Machined from a solid would give far higher hardness and even strength throughout the material. Extrusions can produce weak spots. Even so these nuts must be under some huge pressure to crack a weak spot!? The pressure on the hub cannot be that awful much given the whole bike's weight. It must get stressed in hard turns maybe? Also I learned that in this instance, when it wobbled a bit he said he hit the brakes hard and it went away. Must have seated everything OK (for a little while) doing that. My guess is hitting the brakes to make it go away was pounding on the nut making a weak spot give. He said it certainly felt like the rotor or brakes on the right side were "catching", never even thought it could be the nut problem - as he took it in TWICE to get looked at. Never again at that place I hope!
................. They're going to cheapo themselves out of business!
No they won't or it would be going down the gurgler already. These Spyder quality issues have been going on for a decade and more, just getting slowly worse. Most folks will keep buying em until they eventually find one that's somewhat reliable; fewer folks dump them. You see some folks here that are on their 5th one. BRP have cornered a niche market and laugh at us because they know quality isn't what sells the trikes for them - it's the buyer's 'I want one' mentality.
The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.
WHY? are we talking threading now. The threading had Nothing to do with the cracking!
:I have removed my ( totally un-offensive ) post ….. due to ….. well let's just say I removed it and leave it at that ………….. ride safe - ride happy ….. Mike
Thanks, 9 threads @ 7/16 wide …… that should be sufficient ….. It must be the metallurgy …… And I'll repeat - why isn't it made of steel ????? …………………. You would think after the " windshield arm fiasco " they would have learned something …… guess not ………………… Mike
Here are the old ones from my Rally. 9 threads inside.
12 point wrenching design, with 12 slots for the safety pin, each safety pin slot, aligned with the lowest portion of the wrenching area “V” notch. Both machined and cutting more notches along the materials grain.
So, in theory, you have an aluminum nut, unless forged it will have a grain structure aligned with the bore of the threads, and failures occurring from the “V” notch into the safety pin slot, so essentially failures are on the smallest cross sectional area.
The actual design is cosmetically pretty, but the structural design is lacking. Add to this, threads create an expending force into the nut when tightened.
Certain aluminums have a failure characteristic known as “notch sensitivity”. So high strength aluminum, likely prone to notch sensitivity concerns, utilized in a poorly designed mechanical fastener, under expanding tensile stress, failed at the weakest cross sectional area of the fastener, seems about correct to me.
Unless the new nuts are forged, altering the grain alignments, and the design repositioned the safety pin slots, the use of solid bar extrusion, vs hollow bar extrusion may not matter. Those suggesting inclusions within the material as the cause may be correct. However if that is the case, the material used is inferior.
As far as the info I have read the only nuts that cracked were made approx. between 2/19 and 9/19. Those were made from hollow bar stock per the NHTSA.
The ones made before that date were made from solid bar stock (mine? 10/18). If the pre 2/19 and/or the new nuts start cracking then I'll agree and blame the use of aluminum. Now I'm blaming the process of going to hollow stock not the stock material itself.
All they did to fix the problem was to go back to form (extrude) solid bar stock. Probably with stock milled out on one of the roughly shaped 12 recessed areas in the dies to add extra stock for machining in the new nut ID area. The old dies could be used this way.
Somewhere in the Ryker blog I read that the reason for the cracks, per the NHTSA, was "cold shots" formed in the hollow extrusions. I wish I could find it. No where are threads mentioned as the problem.
Until the pre 2/19 and the new design nuts start cracking I'll consider the issue fixed. Getting the new nuts out in the field for owners waiting for the new nuts and properly trained techs. is another story. Now I wonder what the next issue will be from Can Am
12 point wrenching design, with 12 slots for the safety pin, each safety pin slot, aligned with the lowest portion of the wrenching area “V” notch. Both machined and cutting more notches along the materials grain.
So, in theory, you have an aluminum nut, unless forged it will have a grain structure aligned with the bore of the threads, and failures occurring from the “V” notch into the safety pin slot, so essentially failures are on the smallest cross sectional area.
The actual design is cosmetically pretty, but the structural design is lacking. Add to this, threads create an expending force into the nut when tightened.
Certain aluminums have a failure characteristic known as “notch sensitivity”. So high strength aluminum, likely prone to notch sensitivity concerns, utilized in a poorly designed mechanical fastener, under expanding tensile stress, failed at the weakest cross sectional area of the fastener, seems about correct to me.
Unless the new nuts are forged, altering the grain alignments, and the design repositioned the safety pin slots, the use of solid bar extrusion, vs hollow bar extrusion may not matter. Those suggesting inclusions within the material as the cause may be correct. However if that is the case, the material used is inferior.
. Wow! Now that’s an answer that should be forwarded to BRP. IMO.
I'm no expert but I work in the engineering field. With the quality of simulation software engineers are able to test all sorts of parts/designs/ideas for various types of failures before the actual part is ever built. The software is expensive and BRP is running the Dassault Systems suite of tools. These are the same tools many aerospace companies use (boeing, Airbus, etc) to simulate designs. The software is very accurate. I'm not saying it never happens but typically, in today's world, if a failure takes place its a materials/manufacturing issue rather than a design issue. You can't completely release the engineer/designer from the hook because its possible they design something difficult to make and that leads to a materials/manufacturing issue but in general an experienced engineer would know if a design will fail long before its ever built.
I'm no expert but I work in the engineering field. With the quality of simulation software engineers are able to test all sorts of parts/designs/ideas for various types of failures before the actual part is ever built. The software is expensive and BRP is running the Dassault Systems suite of tools. These are the same tools many aerospace companies use (boeing, Airbus, etc) to simulate designs. The software is very accurate. I'm not saying it never happens but typically, in today's world, if a failure takes place its a materials/manufacturing issue rather than a design issue. You can't completely release the engineer/designer from the hook because its possible they design something difficult to make and that leads to a materials/manufacturing issue but in general an experienced engineer would know if a design will fail long before its ever built.
CATIA is an excellent program. As mentioned when correctly used, it does offer an immense capability. I do agree also that it does very well at predicting time to failure or first failure location.
Without doubt, if the issue is identified as defective raw material, there is no means to predict anything more than replace the part.
Regarding what software or evaluation is utilized by BRP, the end result is the fastener failed. Defective material could happen in solid material or hollow material, so that is an interesting remark.
No doubt BRP will sort it out and restore confidence.
I found info. on reason for cracked nuts. HOLLOW extrusions caused COLD SHOTS. The 3rd picture are example images of Cold Shots....NOT Pictures of nut defects!
I have total confidence in BRP. I haven't been easy on mine and have had no problems. If there was a design issue it would have shown up on mine by now. I believe it was just what they said, a bad batch that they discovered and are now correcting.
Spyder F3-S Special Series my traveling ride
Ryker Rally modified for dual sport duty
Honda Grom heavily modified for dual sport duty
Ducati Scrambler Icon Dark my other traveling ride
I bought mine 900 on feb 7. I have hit I don't even know how many bad bumps. Mine seem fine so I agree it might just be a few of them, not good if your one of them though. I pulled a wheel a few months back and as I recall the nut was quite heavy- maybe solid. At any rate that should have never happened. If I had one that was in the time period of the flawed nuts I would park it until the new ones were replaced.
You most likely have nuts that were manufactured pre 2/19. On the frame, under the seat look on the label near the upper right corner. The build date is there. I bought mine 7/19, but build date is 10/18.
All the nuts are heavy and solid. "Hollow" extrusions mean the were made from a long piece tubing (like a straw with thick walls) If the bar stock was maybe 10' long and the nut maybe 1 1/4 thick, the bar would be cut up to make close to 96 nuts. I don't mean to play Mr. Teacher, but you noted that you thought the nuts felt solid. That threw me off....they're all solid. Well except for the flawed ones. You wouldn't know the difference in your hand.
Mine was made 5/19, no cracked nuts, no weird problems, it just goes. New nuts on order though per the recall. Bit I do maintain y stuff also. I don't just hop and ride and not check things over.
Mine was made 5/19, no cracked nuts, no weird problems, it just goes. New nuts on order though per the recall. Bit I do maintain y stuff also. I don't just hop and ride and not check things over.
So are you saying that these cracks are visible prior to the nut giving way, KC61? If the cracks are not visible, I don’t understand how checking things over before you ride would show anything untoward in this case.
HeliBars Handlebars
Brake rubber removed to lower pedal for easier long leg/Size 15 EEEEW boot access.
Ikon (Aussie) shocks all round.
Russell Daylong seat 2” taller than stock (in Sunbrella for Aussie heat & water resistance)
Goodyear Duragrip 165/60 fronts (18psi) - provides extra 1/2” ground clearance.
Kenda Kanine rear.
2021 RT Limited , Brake pedal rubber removed for ease of accessing pedal with size 15 boots. Red
So are you saying that these cracks are visible prior to the nut giving way, KC61? If the cracks are not visible, I don’t understand how checking things over before you ride would show anything untoward in this case.
Pete
I visually inspect them and just today I checked the torque of all 3 wheels as well as the air pressure. That's what I mean by not just hopping on and riding. I guarantee you if the OP would have done a visual check of things before he took off this more than likely wouldn't have happened. These things always get blown out of proportion.
Originally Posted by Highwayman2013
…… Could you measure what the 9 Threads are ( ie.3/8 or 1/2 or 5/8 across the width of the threads or whatever ) ……. Mike
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