influencing nanny

[Lew L]

It was suggested that I make these questions from the cowl shake thread into it's own thread and question--- so riddle me this Batman???


1. Does adding better tires, shocks, and sway bar effect the rate at which the sensors have nanny ( YRS ) come into effect ??????

2. Or is it how smoothly the ryder makes those inputs happen???

After pondering drawing #2 in Snowbelts Spyder's answer to my question ----another question pops up-----

3. It seem like the sensor inputs MAY be influenced by the ECM---- IF so can the be changed like a Stage 1 flash from Monster FI??????

Thanks in advance to those of you who care to opine.

Lew L

[Navydad]

The first several months I had my RT I very rarely had the nanny intervene. With the stock set up I could not comfortably push the bike hard enough to make nanny activate. The FIRST ride after I installed the car tires and made suspension adjustments I experienced the nanny activating on a twisty road near our house. Making my RT handle better did not in my opinion do anything to change the rate that nanny kicks in, BUT the upgrades sure made it easier to get to the point where nanny kicks in. The RT handled better, tracked better, and felt more in control with the upgrades which meant I could push harder, with more confidence, and reach that plateau where nanny says enough is enough.

I believe the more I rode the RT the smoother I got and that may have contributed to finally getting nanny to rear up, but I think the upgrades had more to do with that.

I too would like to know if there are ways to tame nanny's aggressiveness. I wouldn't change mine because I like the security it provides and by time mine kicks in I am usually pushing the envelope on the roads that I ride. Just curious.

[ARtraveler]

I have only had the nanny intervene twice. Both times were with hydroplaning incidents. After I figured it out...no more hydroplaning.

Happily, I have not encountered any nanny incidents from my everyday driving of the Spyder. I guess I don't drive aggressively enough.

I guess I am going to stay where I am with the nanny the way it is.

[IdahoMtnSpyder]

1. Does adding better tires, shocks, and sway bar effect the rate at which the sensors have nanny ( YRS ) come into effect ??????

2. Or is it how smoothly the ryder makes those inputs happen???

After pondering drawing #2 in Snowbelts Spyder's answer to my question ----another question pops up-----

3. It seem like the sensor inputs MAY be influenced by the ECM---- IF so can the be changed like a Stage 1 flash from Monster FI??????

I'm going to say yes and no. I'm sure what actually happens is the change in tires, etc., will change how much the Spyder leans, or whatever, with respect to speed. The set point at which Nanny reacts to the sensor input does not change, but the speed, or other factor, required to reach the set point will change. That can seem like a change in how Nanny reacts because of the changes, but it really isn't.

It's possible the algorithms in Nanny take into account how fast the sensor input changes, not just just the amount. So in that regard smoother handling, like in corners, may affect how quickly Nanny jumps into action.

Engine speed is probably one of the inputs into the Nanny equation, so theoretically at least, an ECM change could make a change in how Nanny responds. I doubt the ECM has any direct influence over the sensors themselves.

[Spyder Insyder]

I have only had the nanny intervene twice. Both times were with hydroplaning incidents. After I figured it out...no more hydroplaning.

Happily, I have not encountered any nanny incidents from my everyday driving of the Spyder. I guess I don't drive aggressively enough.

I guess I am going to stay where I am with the nanny the way it is.

Awhile back, I was coming down out of the mountains where we live, when I got caught in a torrential downpour. There was so much water being thrown up from the tires under the front fenders, it sounded like a jet engine roar. As I entered a turn it felt as if the entire bike was floating to the outside. Suddenly the bike made a quick yawing whip-like motion and regained traction. I don't know if that was the result of the nannie activating, or just the tires coming out of the standing water on the road. In any event I quickly learned to slow way down every time I heard the roaring sound coming from the front fenders.

[ARtraveler]

Awhile back, I was coming down out of the mountains where we live, when I got caught in a torrential downpour. There was so much water being thrown up from the tires under the front fenders, it sounded like a jet engine roar. As I entered a turn it felt as if the entire bike was floating to the outside. Suddenly the bike made a quick yawing whip-like motion and regained traction. I don't know if that was the result of the nannie activating, or just the tires coming out of the standing water on the road. In any event I quickly learned to slow way down every time I heard the roaring sound coming from the front fenders.

Sounds like nanny intervention during a hydroplaning incident. I am guessing the dash lit up...but it is quick. Similar to the all wheel drive kicking in on a Subaru.

Bottom line: over an inch of water on the road and over 50 mph will cause hydroplaning.

[Wahrsuul]

I've had nanny kick in a few times in the last couple months. Usually just as I'm hard cornering and the inside front tire would be starting to lift. She doesn't just slow things down, she cuts power hard, and for me, it's a little scary. I've got my balance set for the hard corner, then in the middle of it I lose power and about fall off.

[h0gr1der]

I was told by someone who you would expect to know (high level technician) that the RT responds different to the F3. He said the RT reduces throttle first, then applies braking, while the sportier models apply the brakes before chopping throttle.

That's neither here nor there for me, the biggest question is how varied our responses are as to when the Nanny shows up. On mine I couldn't get any response from Nanny unless a tire cleared the ground. As in a clear visible gap under the tire. Then the throttle was reduced for a brief time, wheel set down, and Nanny re-applied full throttle. I broke every rule of smooth riding to get this to happen. Yet I hear of folks getting Nanny interference all the time.

So an additional question. The G Sensor on the frame, what is the variability of the quality of that thing? Good as the parking brake motor? Made in China by the lowest bidder? How about every single perifery device on this machine, those of which all have to work in unison to achieve what we all call Nanny? Maybe mine is simply out of calibration due to quality control issues.

[Lew L]

Thanks for the answers/thoughts gentleman. It would be nice to know from the people who built/ programmed the VVS system.

UPDATE:


E-mail sent to BRP Cares

Updating the Update:

Francis P at BRP cares basically said ------ go to the dealer and ask a tech. REALLY??????? If I thought the techs were well informed enough I'd have gone there first.

[Snowbelt Spyder]

So an additional question. The G Sensor on the frame, what is the variability of the quality of that thing? Good as the parking brake motor? Made in China by the lowest bidder? How about every single perifery device on this machine, those of which all have to work in unison to achieve what we all call Nanny? Maybe mine is simply out of calibration due to quality control issues.

Pretty sure it's made by Bosch. (I've heard that if it wasn't for Bosch developing the VSS system, that the Spyder would have never seen the market) And no, you don't want to drop it, hit it, etc, in the shop or at the factory. Over the years, a couple of folks on here have noted that their YRS needed reset in order to correct some weird nanny behavior. Mine was off calibration a bit. 5 minute job in BUDS. This is a 2012 procedure. Later models should be similar.

[Navydad]

My RT does the power chop thing first and that usually takes care things. I did get it to brake hard several times recently. Devil's Drop off the BRP. Nice little stretch of road made just to test nannies patience.

[askitee]

It was suggested that I make these questions from the cowl shake thread into it's own thread and question--- so riddle me this Batman???


1. Does adding better tires, shocks, and sway bar effect the rate at which the sensors have nanny ( YRS ) come into effect ??????

2. Or is it how smoothly the ryder makes those inputs happen???

After pondering drawing #2 in Snowbelts Spyder's answer to my question ----another question pops up-----

3. It seem like the sensor inputs MAY be influenced by the ECM---- IF so can the be changed like a Stage 1 flash from Monster FI??????

Thanks in advance to those of you who care to opine.

Lew L

From my experience on my 2017 RTL
1. Yes - Prior to replacing my Kenda with a superior tyre and recently aftermarket shocks, Nanny visits me far less often. That being said there are still some things she simply won't condone even with better shoes and socks She hates one of the roundabouts on my town.
2. Not necessarily. - When I ride I ride smoothly, but if I decide to have a hot run on one of the boy racer roads, or follow some of my co-riders on their hot run (i.e. last one to the next pub shouts the 1st two rounds), I am ok with the bike (2 or 3 wheels) jumping around or wriggling etc. The RT will see Nanny cut in sometimes in a hot run, but has cut in without notice when cruising too. She is more sensitive to aggressive riding
3. There are certain things you can do that will cause Nanny to ignore certain situations, such as:
- Moving more weight over the front of the bike when cornering fast where you want some room for anything that may appear mid corner.
- Pressing down on the outside peg when doing the same appeases her (hails from my Motox racing days a long time ago)
- being in a gear lower than you would normally when cornering seems to indicate to her you are in better control of what you are doing, and lessens her tendency to say Hi.

I am interested in an ECU flash when my warranty expires, but only to improve fuel economy. Whatever ECU settings they apply for Australia are, sit on 100km/hr (highway speed limit) and i'll get 450kms to a tank, up that to 110 km/hr (freeway and remote highway speed limit) and I get approx 300km to a tank

[Lew L]

Thanks ask,

I do shift my weight forward, lower, and pressure on the o/s floorboard ( hanging off as I did on my Ninja ZX-1100)

As for the ECM flash----- I did not get better fuel MPGs. It FAR to much fun to use the better throttle response and extra 15 horsepower. Wind resistance sure kills our 40+ MPGs.

Lew L

[BajaRon]

A sway bar upgrade will reduce the frequency and severity of input from the 'Nanny'.

[PinkRosePetal]

A sway bar upgrade will reduce the frequency and severity of input from the 'Nanny'.

Does it? Would you care to explain how that is the case? Serious question.

[Lew L]

Another question for those in the know:

Does the YRS sensor measure g-force or tilt angle????

If you don' know the REAL answer----- please don't bother trying to answer.

Lew L

[BajaRon]

Does it? Would you care to explain how that is the case? Serious question.

I take it as a serious question.

The easiest way to confirm what a sway bar upgrade does is to ride a stock Spyder around a twisty course, and then ride an identical Spyder around the same course. Lap times are reduced as more speed is carried through the turns. Some of this because steering is more controlled and precise. Some because the rider feels more confident. In our tests, the riders attempted to push both the stock Spyder and the modified Spyder around the same course. The stock Spyder was much more prone to have a Nanny event than the upgraded Spyder. Though riders complained that the Nanny hindering their stock Spyder ride. I don't think anyone ran into the Nanny with the sway bar upgrade. Not that you can't, because you certainly can. More likely because none of us had ridden the upgraded Spyder enough to know where the limits were. So we were a bit conservative.

But you don't have to be pushing the envelope to notice the difference between the 2 setups. Though, depending on your riding style, you obviously will not notice a reduction in Nanny interventions if you never get the Nanny with the stock setup.

Typically, the average rider does not get any Nanny strikes in the beginning. It isn't until they have some miles and experience under their belts, and their skill level brings them to a point where the Nanny isn't happy that they start to notice it. Frankly, a lack of good, smooth riding can also aggravate the Nanny. Then you have riders in places like Florida where they may never see twisties that might create a Nanny event. Not that you necessarily need twisties, just that they are more likely to get her attention.

If you want to get technical. The Spyder has a good number of sensors which constantly monitor just about every aspect of momentum and attitude. These multiple sensors send information to the ECM many times each second. A sway bar upgrade reduces the amount and velocity of lean and probably some other ancillary inputs that prod the Nanny into action. She does not go away, of course. She just isn't as nervous as before. I have been told by BRP reps that had they not been able to incorporate, successfully, the VSS (Nanny) system. The Spyder would never have come to market. From what I've heard about BRP's non-Nanny testing issues. I believe it.

The sway bar isn't the only component that effects the Nanny. As mentioned by others. Tires, shocks, and certainly riding style will also factor into the overall results. It is interesting that even though a sway bar upgrade increases G-Forces that can be achieved. The reduction in lean angle seems to more than compensate for this. This fact is why some question whether or not the Spyder has a G-Force sensor.

Another question for those in the know:

Does the YRS sensor measure g-force or tilt angle????

If you don' know the REAL answer----- please don't bother trying to answer.

Lew L

At the risk of falling outside of your stated parameter. It is very possible that the YRS sensor is able to measure both.

My question would be. Why would it matter? Unless someone wanted to modify or disable the output.

[Peter Aawen]

Not claiming to be an expert on these things, just passing on the info I got from Bosch, which was that the 'Yaw Sensor' our Spyders use is actually a yaw, roll, & rate sensor that measures acceleration in all three spatial dimensions and yaw/rates around all axes; ie, they measure acceleration & any rotation (degree & rate) plus the forces involved (in g's) to a fairly high degree of accuracy.... I had the specs somewhere but can't find them atm ( )

They are a pretty swish piece of kit, allowing all those things to be measured & the info passed in real time to the various computers requiring that info, and they do it using just the one sensor, instead of taking a number of sensors all aligned differently to measure each of the individual aspects of any attitude change or acceleration.

They also told me that as h0gr1der mentioned, the various model RT's, Rykers, & the F3's all DO have different VSS programming & response protocols, and also that the VSS programs have been 'updated' over time, as they've learnt more & received 'customer feedback' (remember, it's BRP that's their customer!) so the latest models may not react in quite the same way as earlier versions do.....

Help any?

[h0gr1der]

Not claiming to be an expert on these things, just passing on the info I got from Bosch, which was that the 'Yaw Sensor' our Spyders use is actually a yaw, roll, & rate sensor that measures acceleration in all three spatial dimensions and yaw/rates around all axes; ie, they measure acceleration & any rotation (degree & rate) plus the forces involved (in g's) to a fairly high degree of accuracy.... I had the specs somewhere but can't find them atm ( )

They are a pretty swish piece of kit, allowing all those things to be measured & the info passed in real time to the various computers requiring that info, and they do it using just the one sensor, instead of taking a number of sensors all aligned differently to measure each of the individual aspects of any attitude change or acceleration.

They also told me that as h0gr1der mentioned, the various model RT's, Rykers, & the F3's all DO have different VSS programming & response protocols, and also that the VSS programs have been 'updated' over time, as they've learnt more & received 'customer feedback' (remember, it's BRP that's their customer!) so the latest models may not react in quite the same way as earlier versions do.....

Help any?

I don't have the coin but would really like someone to take an RT or F3 bone stock, mount one of those $1500 performance monitors to it and flog it on the skid pad, both wet and dry. After that is completed and data is compiled, start making upgrades and flog it some more. Empirical data is always better than speculation. They could either test after each upgrade, or go all in with tires, sway bars, upgraded shocks, and alignment. That would be a really interesting article.

[h0gr1der]

I take it as a serious question.

Typically, the average rider does not get any Nanny strikes in the beginning. It isn't until they have some miles and experience under their belts, and their skill level brings them to a point where the Nanny isn't happy that they start to notice it. Frankly, a lack of good, smooth riding can also aggravate the Nanny. Then you have riders in places like Florida where they may never see twisties that might create a Nanny event. Not that you necessarily need twisties, just that they are more likely to get her attention.

Being too old and decrepit to survive a wreck, I approached the envelope slowly and cautiously. I kept expecting the Nanny to intercede, and was somewhat afraid of the response I would get after reading so many varied tales of how much and how often. I can say that on my 2018 RTL the Nanny is quiet until one of the front wheels comes completely off the ground. Tried this multiple times. I can corner hard enough to squall the tires, use poor form on corners, but Nanny is quiet. Lift a front tire and the bike takes off throttle for a split second, and as soon as the tire reengages the road it goes back to full throttle. I'm impressed with my setup, but wonder if there is really that much difference in the tuning on these things?

[Y-me]

The nanny can be tricked into letting you drift.

When going around a tight turn with some speed, it seems turning the wheels slightly into the turn combined with the Gs causes the nanny to pulse the breaks.
This causes the spyder to slightly break traction and go around the turn at something approximating 40-45 degrees or so.

I'm sure there are those on here who are far batter at it than I am.
Fun as heck but I can only do it on a left hand turn.

-Y

[PinkRosePetal]

....just passing on the info I got from Bosch, which was that the 'Yaw Sensor' our Spyders use is actually a yaw, roll, & rate sensor that measures acceleration in all three spatial dimensions and yaw/rates around all axes; ie, they measure acceleration & any rotation (degree & rate) plus the forces involved (in g's) to a fairly high degree of accuracy....

I understood about longitudinal and lateral acceleration but not roll. If indeed the sensor can measure roll or it is effected by roll (in a kinda positive way for us) then I can see how an antiroll bar can effect the VSS function. But, generally, an antiroll bar transfers weight from the inside wheel to the outside wheel so it would encourage the lifting of the inside wheel and invoke the VSS. If the VSS is less invoked on a bike fitted with an antiroll bar, as Bajaron suggests, then some other parameter(s) is coming into play when the bike stays more level in a turn. If roll measurement is a parameter considered by the VSS then it could certainly have an affect on the VSS's calculations.

[Lew L]

Thanks Ron and Peter,
I was curious as to how the VSS was influenced and you answer helped. Of course Pinky has brought up another point. A anti-roll bar transfers weight from the outer wheel to the inner right????

" But, generally, an antiroll bar transfers weight from the inside wheel to the outside wheel so it would encourage the lifting of the inside wheel ..." This statement doesn't " feel" right ( when ryding the )

Lew L

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I understood about longitudinal and lateral acceleration but not roll. If indeed the sensor can measure roll or it is effected by roll (in a kinda positive way for us) then I can see how an antiroll bar can effect the VSS function. But, generally, an antiroll bar transfers weight from the inside wheel to the outside wheel so it would encourage the lifting of the inside wheel and invoke the VSS. If the VSS is less invoked on a bike fitted with an antiroll bar, as Bajaron suggests, then some other parameter(s) is coming into play when the bike stays more level in a turn. If roll measurement is a parameter considered by the VSS then it could certainly have an affect on the VSS's calculations.

" G " forces …......……. JMHO .....Mike

[Mikey]

" G " forces …......……. JMHO .....Mike

LOVE THEM!!!!!