UPDATE: Service technician was told by BRP engineering that these loose bearings are related to a "shift index lever" metal ring failure that holds in the bearings. My question for him to relay back with BRP engineering – who are now closed for the weekend – where can these bearings travel within the engine and transmission and what kind of damage would they do.
BRP should have either told the dealer to crack the engine open to see the extent of the damage or requested the engine get sent back to Valcourt, in any event they should make the bike whole by replacing the engin with a new one.
As everyone has stated 'Nothing but a New Engine is the Correct Call. ....
I agree 100% that nothing but a complete new engine would satisfy me, if this Spyder was mine! I would never feel satisfied that these loose balls and retainer ring pieces didn’t cause damage to other parts of the engine or Tranny that would show up by surprise any time in the future. BRP should take this engine back, split the Case, inspect for damaged parts, and determine why this happened, then repair as needed, and offer it ONLY as a Factory Rebuilt engine with stated low mileage to Dealers or Owners. Its the only decent choice by BRP to do, as a reputable Company.
007James
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 10-25-2019 at 02:01 AM.
Reason: Fixed quote display
As everyone has stated 'Nothing but a New Engine is the Correct Call. ....
I disagree and retain my opinion to verify if all the steel balls have been collected by the magnet. Inspect the balls for damage. When installing the replacement shift index arm, locate the outer bearing race and remove it. Inspect that also.
Not sure how many of those posting have ever disassembled a motorcycle sequential gearbox. In all my experience, whenever debris such as this becomes involved in the running gearbox, typically the gearbox locks up solid. The photo of the magnetic drain plug does not indicate abnormal wear or damage with additional metal contamination.
Add to this, where does the indexer reside and what proximity to the magnet? To be clear, the indexer arm does not reside within the actual gearbox cases, but is positioned on the outside of the actual gearbox, with the only common access being oil drain back passageways.
I disagree and retain my opinion to verify if all the steel balls have been collected by the magnet. Inspect the balls for damage. When installing the replacement shift index arm, locate the outer bearing race and remove it. Inspect that also.
Not sure how many of those posting have ever disassembled a motorcycle sequential gearbox. In all my experience, whenever debris such as this becomes involved in the running gearbox, typically the gearbox locks up solid. The photo of the magnetic drain plug does not indicate abnormal wear or damage with additional metal contamination.
Add to this, where does the indexer reside and what proximity to the magnet? To be clear, the indexer arm does not reside within the actual gearbox cases, but is positioned on the outside of the actual gearbox, with the only common access being oil drain back passageways.
The bike is under warranty so do not give BRP the excuss to defunk on their responsibility!!!
I disagree and retain my opinion to verify if all the steel balls have been collected by the magnet. Inspect the balls for damage. When installing the replacement shift index arm, locate the outer bearing race and remove it. Inspect that also.
Not sure how many of those posting have ever disassembled a motorcycle sequential gearbox. In all my experience, whenever debris such as this becomes involved in the running gearbox, typically the gearbox locks up solid. The photo of the magnetic drain plug does not indicate abnormal wear or damage with additional metal contamination.
Add to this, where does the indexer reside and what proximity to the magnet? To be clear, the indexer arm does not reside within the actual gearbox cases, but is positioned on the outside of the actual gearbox, with the only common access being oil drain back passageways.
While all true, I also disagree.
If it were a piece of bronze or brass bushing, since that's a very soft material, I might agree. However, all of these pieces are hardened steel, which even a very small piece or pieces can cause a great deal of harm over the long term. It may not cause a catastrophic failure, but the wear and tear over the miles is unacceptable.
All it takes is for one of those steel bb's to have hit a piece of aluminum just right for a crack to start. May be several thousand miles/months/years for that crack to propagate to the point where there's a big problem. There's no way to know what those bb's did on the way down to the pan w/o a complete dissasembly and inspection.
I had an input shaft bearing ball work it's way out in an M-21 the gear sliced it up like a carrot. Most of the trans was ok... Most.. some of that worked its way back into the reverse housing somehow and broke some teeth off on the rear reverse idler gear. The trans ran fine w/ no notice of problems. Only way I found it was doing a clutch change and the input shaft wobbled badly.
Very sad to read so much misunderstanding and lack of knowledge within these posts about what the shift indexer is and where it lives. The shift indexer does not live within the transmission gear area of the gearbox. it resides outside, on the opposite side of the engine case, at the lower point in the oil system. The clutch resides outboard of the indexer. The indexer is shadowed / covered by the shift mechanism linkage.
If there is any gear in the engine capable of lifting one of these balls and crunching it, that would be the clutch basket driven gear. However, with the indexer in close proximity to the magnetic drain plug, so much of this speculation simply warrants a visual inspection of the clutch driven gear and other rotating components during replacement of the indexer.
Those people that actually work on motorcycle gearboxes will understand these photos of the indexer. The bearing is a low stress part that may complete one revolution in selecting all of the gears. Many motorcycles will use a simple hardened steel bushing vs a ball bearing. Apparently, Rotax wanted to minimize any effort required to make the gearbox shift.
If the original poster obtains a new complete engine, very well, I doubt this will happen unless there is noted visual damage that warrants replacement. I will say though, I do hope they resolve his other issues with the machine and he enjoys a great time with it. Best part though, he seems to be working with a very qualified Spyder dealer and tech.
Well, I for one, do understand and do have mechanical knowledge, and disagree with your proposition. I doesn't make me wrong or ignorant. I disagree with your opinion, plain and simple.
The odds favor you and it's admittedly unlikely a catastrophic failure will occur, however by having a major part failure like this, you have increased the risk of that catastrophic engine failure tremendously. If that risk is not addressed at the time it was detected, then we all know how it'll be treated by BRP or any other large corporation if it does occur sometime down the road. IE: Like it never happened or they are completely unrelated events and the owner is left struggling to deal with the situation.
Well, I for one, do understand and do have mechanical knowledge, and disagree with your proposition. I doesn't make me wrong or ignorant. I disagree with your opinion, plain and simple.
The odds favor you and it's admittedly unlikely a catastrophic failure will occur, however by having a major part failure like this, you have increased the risk of that catastrophic engine failure tremendously. If that risk is not addressed at the time it was detected, then we all know how it'll be treated by BRP or any other large corporation if it does occur sometime down the road. IE: Like it never happened or they are completely unrelated events and the owner is left struggling to deal with the situation.
Fair enough, but those demanding a new replacement engine assembly without determining if there is secondary damage are not being anywhere near reasonable. If the clutch cover is removed, with expectations to simply replace the indexer, then at that time a visual inspection to account for all debris items, accompanied with visual inspection of the clutch driven gear and meshing gears is viable and needed. Any discrepancy regarding missing debris, damaged debris, or damaged secondary items then warrants additional actions.
From what this forum has heard about in the past, there have been those that had complete engines replaced for various reasons and sadly there was hidden damage done during the engine swap that resulted in even greater frustrations. Then again, others have had engines swapped with no issues at all.
If there is a need to replace the engine, then so be it.
Very sad to read so much misunderstanding and lack of knowledge within these posts about what the shift indexer is and where it lives. The shift indexer does not live within the transmission gear area of the gearbox. it resides outside, on the opposite side of the engine case, at the lower point in the oil system. The clutch resides outboard of the indexer. The indexer is shadowed / covered by the shift mechanism linkage.
If there is any gear in the engine capable of lifting one of these balls and crunching it, that would be the clutch basket driven gear. However, with the indexer in close proximity to the magnetic drain plug, so much of this speculation simply warrants a visual inspection of the clutch driven gear and other rotating components during replacement of the indexer.
Those people that actually work on motorcycle gearboxes will understand these photos of the indexer. The bearing is a low stress part that may complete one revolution in selecting all of the gears. Many motorcycles will use a simple hardened steel bushing vs a ball bearing. Apparently, Rotax wanted to minimize any effort required to make the gearbox shift.
If the original poster obtains a new complete engine, very well, I doubt this will happen unless there is noted visual damage that warrants replacement. I will say though, I do hope they resolve his other issues with the machine and he enjoys a great time with it. Best part though, he seems to be working with a very qualified Spyder dealer and tech.
The balls must have gone from its original area to the drain plug which is in the main body of the engine....... How many balls came out and how many should have been in the bearing - are there any missing???
The balls must have gone from its original area to the drain plug which is in the main body of the engine....... How many balls came out and how many should have been in the bearing - are there any missing???
Actually no, the engine is dry sump and where this failed bearing resides is behind the clutch basket and shift shaft arm. No rotating crankshaft journals or pistons nearby. If there is damage, the issue is to the clutch basket driven gear and balancer gear. The clutch is removed to replace the indexer arm and failed bearing making a visual inspection easy.
I will be very curious to see if the tech determined if the magnet captured all the steel balls, and if BRP provides a replacement engine.
If all the shrapnel can not be found the motor and trans will have to be stripped down.
Absolutely true, but add to this, during accomplishment of replacing the indexer, the clutch drive and driven gears must be inspected.
Someone posted the front page of the service bulletin, it would be far more worthy of a post to have posted every page complete and legible, allowing those here to read the workscope BRP mandates to accomplish the bulletin correctly.
Absolutely true, but add to this, during accomplishment of replacing the indexer, the clutch drive and driven gears must be inspected.
Someone posted the front page of the service bulletin, it would be far more worthy of a post to have posted every page complete and legible, allowing those here to read the workscope BRP mandates to accomplish the bulletin correctly.
Let me see. Just checked again, never have worked for BRP.
I have been on Spyderlovers long enough to see non mechanics go into lynch mob mentality demanding new engines, new Spyders, simply new, new new, even getting the original poster demanding new, only to have their balloons popped when BRP says no and fixes the issue.
Then there is the class action lawsuit folks. Other than the heat / fire issues, most look good at first on paper, but never truly produce anything more than talk and hurt feelings.
How about you, how many years have you worked for BRP?
Let me see. Just checked again, never have worked for BRP.
I have been on Spyderlovers long enough to see non mechanics go into lynch mob mentality demanding new engines, new Spyders, simply new, new new, even getting the original poster demanding new, only to have their balloons popped when BRP says no and fixes the issue.
Then there is the class action lawsuit folks. Other than the heat / fire issues, most look good at first on paper, but never truly produce anything more than talk and hurt feelings.
How about you, how many years have you worked for BRP?
Zero years but been building racing engines for almost 40 years!!! I see you do not actually own a Spyder!!!
In fairness, I'm not interested to pursue a complete engine/transmission replacement if this failure hasn't caused any damage to the respective areas of concern. If it can be repaired and continue to operate fine for thousands of miles beyond then I'd rather opt to follow BRP's bulletin recommendations. Complete replacement potentially could create more never-ending problems.
However, I am curious how or why this shifter index lever would've failed as well as why would BRP issued a bulletin to remedy the failure. I wonder where do these loose ball bearings and the broken race travel? Do they move through the engine/transmission or do they immediately sink to the bottom and cling to the magnetic plug while the Spyder is in operation? I hope someone with definitive knowledge can explain this to me. Additionally, in the summer of 2018, I reported and shared a video with my dealer that I heard an odd metallic sound bouncing around inside my my Spyder left engine casing. At the time I had 712 miles on it. I don't know this recent failure and the unsettling noise I heard back then are related; are they? My Spyder currently has 2746 miles on it when I left it with the dealer last month where it still remains not only dealing with this issue but another unrelated audio system flaw that appears to plague all 2018 Spyder models.
I am hoping people who do understand the Spyder's mechanical nature can precisely explain why this failure occurred. Especially, those of us like myself who are unclear and what to specifically ask in order to effectively resolve the issue. I'm grateful that my dealer has been incredibly responsive to my concerns and doing what they can to address the issue(s).
They have reported to me this week that they have received the new shifter index lever which shows there are nine bearings inside the race. All nine bearings that were clinging to my Spyder's magnetic oil plug are accounted for including what appears to be a part of the race that contained them. BRP has advised the service tech to open the affected area and see if there's any additional damage and see where the rest of the blown race is located. They will make their decision when the tech reports back to them and me.
Service tech sent me two sheets from the shifter index lever bulletin - see attached. I've requested they ask BRP how does this part fail and why is there a bulletin for this. I hope to hear back an informative answer.
Originally Posted by PMK
Absolutely true, but add to this, during accomplishment of replacing the indexer, the clutch drive and driven gears must be inspected.
Someone posted the front page of the service bulletin, it would be far more worthy of a post to have posted every page complete and legible, allowing those here to read the workscope BRP mandates to accomplish the bulletin correctly.
Last edited by Seattle; 09-26-2019 at 03:54 PM.
Reason: typos
“Be who you are and say what you feel
because those who mind don't matter and
those who matter don't mind.” ... Dr. Suess
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In fairness, I'm not interested to pursue a complete engine/transmission replacement if this failure hasn't caused any damage to the respective areas of concern. If it can be repaired and continue to operate fine for thousands of miles beyond then I'd rather opt to follow BRP's bulletin recommendations. Complete replacement potentially could create more never-ending problems.
However, I am curious how or why this shifter index lever would've failed as well as why would BRP issued a bulletin to remedy the failure. I wonder where do these loose ball bearings and the broken race travel? Do they move through the engine/transmission or do they immediately sink to the bottom and cling to the magnetic plug while the Spyder is in operation? I hope someone with definitive knowledge can explain this to me. Additionally, in the summer of 2018, I reported and shared a video with my dealer that I heard an odd metallic sound bouncing around inside my my Spyder left engine casing. At the time I had 712 miles on it. I don't know this recent failure and the unsettling noise I heard back then are related; are they? My Spyder currently has 2746 miles on it when I left it with the dealer last month where it still remains not only dealing with this issue but another unrelated audio system flaw that appears to plague all 2018 Spyder models.
I am hoping people who do understand the Spyder's mechanical nature can precisely explain why this failure occurred. Especially, those of us like myself who are unclear and what to specifically ask in order to effectively resolve the issue. I'm grateful that my dealer has been incredibly responsive to my concerns and doing what they can to address the issue(s).
They have reported to me this week that they have received the new shifter index lever which shows there are nine bearings inside the race. All nine bearings that were clinging to my Spyder's magnetic oil plug are accounted for including what appears to be a part of the race that contained them. BRP has advised the service tech to open the affected area and see if there's any additional damage and see where the rest of the blown race is located. They will make their decision when the tech reports back to them and me.
Service tech sent me two sheets from the shifter index lever bulletin - see attached. I've requested they ask BRP how does this part fail and why is there a bulletin for this. I hope to hear back an informative answer.
Well this has been really run up the flag pole and back down again!!! Some can say it will be ok , some, not! But where the rubber hits the road is that the same oil in the engine will go threw the transmission, yes there are filters in the run, weather every thing that hits both ends get filtered I DONT KNOW!!!! And we are all speculating with out ripping the system down to see where the darn bearing came from, and do a CSI on the body It's probly a case of being a Monday morning install and the person needed a cup of coffee!! I just hope for all that it gets resolved and the owner has a dependable ride in the end!!!
Originally Posted by Seattle
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As everyone has stated 'Nothing but a New Engine is the Correct Call. ....
It's probly a case of being a Monday morning install and the person needed a cup of coffee!! I just hope for all that it gets resolved and the owner has a dependable ride in the end!!!
