Ball Bearings & Metal Ring Found in Engine Oil During 3K Mile SVC - Help!

[Mikey]

Your information is incorrect. Our Spyder is a 2014 RTS bought in January of 2014. Why would you, or where did you decide I do not own a Spyder.

Breath!!!!

[PMK]

In fairness, I'm not interested to pursue a complete engine/transmission replacement if this failure hasn't caused any damage to the respective areas of concern. If it can be repaired and continue to operate fine for thousands of miles beyond then I'd rather opt to follow BRP's bulletin recommendations. Complete replacement potentially could create more never-ending problems.

However, I am curious how or why this shifter index lever would've failed as well as why would BRP issued a bulletin to remedy the failure. I wonder where do these loose ball bearings and the broken race travel? Do they move through the engine/transmission or do they immediately sink to the bottom and cling to the magnetic plug while the Spyder is in operation? I hope someone with definitive knowledge can explain this to me. Additionally, in the summer of 2018, I reported and shared a video with my dealer that I heard an odd metallic sound bouncing around inside my my Spyder left engine casing. At the time I had 712 miles on it. I don't know this recent failure and the unsettling noise I heard back then are related; are they? My Spyder currently has 2746 miles on it when I left it with the dealer last month where it still remains not only dealing with this issue but another unrelated audio system flaw that appears to plague all 2018 Spyder models.

I am hoping people who do understand the Spyder's mechanical nature can precisely explain why this failure occurred. Especially, those of us like myself who are unclear and what to specifically ask in order to effectively resolve the issue. I'm grateful that my dealer has been incredibly responsive to my concerns and doing what they can to address the issue(s).

They have reported to me this week that they have received the new shifter index lever which shows there are nine bearings inside the race. All nine bearings that were clinging to my Spyder's magnetic oil plug are accounted for including what appears to be a part of the race that contained them. BRP has advised the service tech to open the affected area and see if there's any additional damage and see where the rest of the blown race is located. They will make their decision when the tech reports back to them and me.

Service tech sent me two sheets from the shifter index lever bulletin - see attached. I've requested they ask BRP how does this part fail and why is there a bulletin for this. I hope to hear back an informative answer.

With a service bulletin already released, yours is certainly not the first time they saw this. At a guess, the bearing simply failed, either the outer race broke, maybe the ball separator, or something. Not sure what company or where the bearing was made, but they could have factored in also.

Be sure to let the tech know directly if possible that you had metallic noise concerns previously. This should get him to look closely for secondary damage.

The indexer itself is positioned very low in the cases. It resides outside the main gearbox, but inside the primary drive / clutch area. I am not sure of the exact distance and path from the indexer to the magnetic drain plug, but believe it is about 2 inches.

These designs do share oil for the gearbox and engine. However, there is a suction screen to prevent issues like this from letting the oil pump ingest debris.

Your dealer sounds pretty good, and with that, I hope if they do find secondary damage they extend the warranty case further. Beyond that, lets hope they resolve the other issues too.

[PMK]

Breath!!!!

Difficult sometimes with all the hot air these arm chair, wanna be, Monday morning, mechanics spew...

[Peter Aawen]

Difficult sometimes with all the hot air these arm chair, wanna be, Monday morning, mechanics spew...

Sure, there is that, but even if 'they' don't always remember, we (me? you? us? Those of us who know better?! ) should be playing the 'game' here, not just the man!

[Seattle]

I feel more reassured knowing there's a suction screen that catches any loose debris so that these broken bits aren't floating anywhere far enough to cause any significant damage; thank you for this important detail. I hope that's confirmed when the investigative and process begins before any repairs are implemented. The service tech did indicate that the replacement shifter index lever parts are more "durable".

As soon as I was told about the shifter index lever failure – it was discovered during the 3K oil service change – I made the service techs fully aware of the metallic sound I had reported back in summer 2018 that the tech. I shared the video with them to forward to BRP. The service techs don't believe they're related since I've since I've managed to ride for 2034 miles while it was ongoing. However, I wanted to ask our community Spyder owners with more mechanical knowledge if they're familiar with the issue and whether if it was a possible cause.

My service technician did share with me what BRP had written to him and implied if at any time in the future there's any other problems related to this shifter index lever failure, it will be covered. However, there wasn't any specified amount of time given for warranty coverage in their correpsondence. That makes me feel uneasy not knowing this.

With a service bulletin already released, yours is certainly not the first time they saw this. At a guess, the bearing simply failed, either the outer race broke, maybe the ball separator, or something. Not sure what company or where the bearing was made, but they could have factored in also.

Be sure to let the tech know directly if possible that you had metallic noise concerns previously. This should get him to look closely for secondary damage.

The indexer itself is positioned very low in the cases. It resides outside the main gearbox, but inside the primary drive / clutch area. I am not sure of the exact distance and path from the indexer to the magnetic drain plug, but believe it is about 2 inches.

These designs do share oil for the gearbox and engine. However, there is a suction screen to prevent issues like this from letting the oil pump ingest debris.

Your dealer sounds pretty good, and with that, I hope if they do find secondary damage they extend the warranty case further. Beyond that, lets hope they resolve the other issues too.

[PMK]

Sure, there is that, but even if 'they' don't always remember, we (me? you? us? Those of us who know better?! ) should be playing the 'game' here, not just the man!

Peter, first off, I am truly glad to read the original poster is understanding to the steps involved regarding this shift indexer failure, based on the service bulletin, his tech, and BRP. His other issues with the Spyder is another huge concern that hopefully gets resolved.

I am not fully understanding your words in your post. Realize, I am in no way placing myself as the man if you are implying that. Your choice of the word “game” is a curious one. This entire topic is a wonderful example of a Spyder owner posting a legitimate concern, and a mass majority of uninformed Spyder enthusiasts present the most extreme worse case demands and expect BRP to comply.

As I stated all along, if the debris is accounted for, and a proper visual inspection indicates no secondary damage, AND the compliance with the bulletin is followed, where is the harm? The harm is the unwarranted stress the posts instill on the original poster, and then to read some of the posts negating my opinion or even myself. In the end though, it shall work out for the owner and as for me, it lets me chuckle reading words posted by those that truly know nothing. Gotta love the internet...

[Freddy]

Peter,

I am not fully understanding your words in your post. Realize, I am in no way placing myself as the man if you are implying that. Your choice of the word “game” is a curious one. This entire topic is a wonderful example of a Spyder owner posting a legitimate concern, and a mass majority of uninformed Spyder enthusiasts present the most extreme worse case demands and expect BRP to comply.

Gotta love the internet...

Yes, ya gotta love the internet and how it enables Australian, US & UK English to get misunderstood. What Peter's saying is: The 'game' is getting BRP to honour the warranty in the best possible way for the benefit of the customer; the 'man' is a person who is the target of off-topic negative comments (or of unfair and/or very rough tackles on an opponent/man/woman in a game of football in order to 'get even.'

Clear?

[Peter Aawen]

There is that!! ^^ And I'm not implying or pointing anything at you PMK, rather just using you as an example to gently remind a few others of how we expect posters to behave & post.

Taking that a bit further, we are all part of a broader Spyder Community here, many of whom have come looking for a friendly & non-confrontational place where they can ask questions about their particular Spyder issues; and as you've shown, there are people here who are kind enough to freely share their knowledge, experience, & advice without expecting anything in return. So even if we don't necessarily always agree with what's been posted, we should always respect the fact that you've made the effort TO post up & share what you've got to offer, & for always addressing the issue & the 'game' rather than personally attacking whoever made the post you might not agree with.

[Coldcoffee30]

Hello gentlemen (and ladies),

As a retirement gift to myself I just bought a used 2015 F3 with 2,400 miles. I have been riding it for about four months now and loving it more and more. Sadly, my first post here isn't a pic of me waving on a scenic road, instead I'm asking for advice from you on this thread. I did all the brakes on Spyder and and I'm able do basic maintenance but I got a little lost with the technical aspects of what really going on.

My engine has the noise described here. At first I thought it may be normal as my 1996 triumph T3 engine that had a rattling sound too (more like a tank though).

What is your recommodation as far as initial steps I should take? I was thinking of immediately changing the oil (myself) and look for any debris /bearings. If i find something then contact BRP?
If i don't, keep checking the magnectic plug every six months?

Thanks in advance.

Gerald

[vondalyn]

Hello gentlemen (and ladies),

As a retirement gift to myself I just bought a used 2015 F3 with 2,400 miles. I have been riding it for about four months now and loving it more and more. Sadly, my first post here isn't a pic of me waving on a scenic road, instead I'm asking for advice from you on this thread. I did all the brakes on Spyder and and I'm able do basic maintenance but I got a little lost with the technical aspects of what really going on.

My engine has the noise described here. At first I thought it may be normal as my 1996 triumph T3 engine that had a rattling sound too (more like a tank though).

What is your recommodation as far as initial steps I should take? I was thinking of immediately changing the oil (myself) and look for any debris /bearings. If i find something then contact BRP?
If i don't, keep checking the magnectic plug every six months?

Thanks in advance.

Gerald

It's been my experience that all F3's kind of sound like someone shaking a box of rocks on the left-hand side. I listened to the video and I have to say that it sounds slightly more high-pitched and metallic than what I'm used to. Since it is a video and every computer is different the sound may be distorted from "reality", and also I'm usually standing and above the sound, so today before I go for a ride, I guess I'll have to lean down and see if mine sounds like that up close and down low. That said, I am over 50000 miles and many oil changes (do them ever 4500 miles) and haven't seen this issue yet. I think I got a good one. Like many others. I read these threads and go, "hmmmmmm..... good to know" and then watch to see how it plays out.

I wish Seattle the best of luck with a speedy resolution and I'm happy that the dealer is willing to provide loaners, that's great!

[BajaRon]

Very sad to see this. And difficult to detach yourself, move back and look at the big picture.

I am sure you would feel much better if a new engine were installed. However, the real question here is; Do you NEED a new engine to resolve the physical issue of a failed bearing? The objective evidence provided so far would strongly suggest 'No'. The problem is, it can be difficult to be objective when this kind of thing happens.

As others have mentioned. There are some questions which still need to be answered. Like, how many balls are in this set? Are they all accounted for? Are any of the debris stuck on the magnet pieces of the failed bearing? Based on the location of this bearing, it is hard to see how any collateral damage could have occured. Not saying it couldn't. Just very likely that it didn't. Given that the information is not complete, here is my valueless assessment based on what I can see.

First, the balls captured by the magnet appear to be in very good shape. I cannot see any gouges, scrapes or nicks. Closer inspection would reveal information one way or the other. However, this, to me, would be good news. For these balls to have caused any damage, they would be much worse for the encounter.

The race cage, though broken and distorted, also appears to be in good condition. It appears to be in 1 piece and not as mangled as it would be if caught in a gear or otherwise creating more issues.

There is debris material on the magnet. But I've seen worse from the first oil change on a Spyder with no particular issues. It would be good to know if this was normal junk, broken bearing pieces, or an indication of collateral damage from the bearing failure.

Another question, which I am surprised has not been addressed is, what did the oil filter look like? There are a lot of non-ferrous parts in this engine. These, of course. will not be captured by the magnet. But would show up on the filter media. If there is a good deal of visible debris there. It would indicate other damage. If not, it would be a sign that the bearing simply fell apart and was captured by the magnet before doing any additional harm. These bearing parts, other than the race ring, are pretty heavy for their surface area. They would want to fall right to the bottom of the case. Not float around doing more damage. This also is a good thing.

Yes, this failure has potential to do a good deal of harm to the engine. But that does not mean that it has, in fact, created any additional issues. If a thorough inspection indicates nothing more than a failed bearing. Then this fix should resolve the problem.

Though everyone would like to get a new motor in a situation like this. Realistically, it may not be necessary. It may well be that the only thing wrong here is the obvious bearing failure. Replacing the failed part(s) may well give you the same results as a motor swap. Understandably, the 'May' in this sentence being the fly-in-the-ointment here. But still a very likely outcome.

I am not saying that you are wrong to press for a new motor. Who knows? At the very least, it will be documented and can be sighted if there are future issues from this event. I'm just saying that if they don't go with the motor swap. It is likely that you will be just fine. You still have a warranty in place. As well as a thoroughly documented issue. If something does let loose in the future, you should have no problem getting it addressed.

I must say that I am impressed by your dealership. I wish more would stand up for the customer as yours has. That is a very critical component in your favor.

We all wish you the best possible outcome on this. You have certainly been through the wringer. Your dealership has done a great job of trying to reduce the pain for something that they had no control over.

Added material 11/09/19
On a side note. I had a 750 Honda that had the shift indexer assembly come apart just north of the San Francisco Bay bridge. There were several small to medium sized components that fell to the bottom of the left side case. It was 9am on a sunny Sunday morning. So not much chance to get any help. I was stuck in 1st gear with no way to change it. Not even able to get to neutral. I pulled over into a sandy wide spot. I had tools to remove the side case, having no idea what I might find, but a lot of time on my hands. I was pretty sure parts would fall out when I spit the vertical case. So I scooped out a spot in the sand directly under where the case would come apart. When I did get the case loose, oil and parts came piling out of the opening.

Not wanting to lose anything. I simply waited for the oil to drain out of the hole. I'm sure I violated several pages of California ordinances concerning hazardous materials disposal. Oh well! They have their policies and I have mine! Once the oil drained into the sand. There were all my parts gloriously perched on top of my scooped out collector.

I reassembled everything right there on the side of the road. One indexer plate had a piece broken off where the 3rd gear pin attached. But it still held the shift pin so I gave it a run. I made it all the way back to San Diego without an issue.

My point being, in all of this, is that even though there were hard machined parts, including bearings, laying in the bottom of that case. Some for quite a few miles as I first lost 5th gear, then 4th, etc., over several miles. Yet there was absolutely no collateral damage. When I got home I replaced the damaged components and put another 30k on that 750 Honda with no further problems. Of course I am not saying that your situation is identical. I am just saying that there is a great possibility that replacing the broken components will give you the same results as replacing the entire engine.

[KX5062]

Hello gentlemen (and ladies),

As a retirement gift to myself I just bought a used 2015 F3 with 2,400 miles. I have been riding it for about four months now and loving it more and more. Sadly, my first post here isn't a pic of me waving on a scenic road, instead I'm asking for advice from you on this thread. I did all the brakes on Spyder and and I'm able do basic maintenance but I got a little lost with the technical aspects of what really going on.

My engine has the noise described here. At first I thought it may be normal as my 1996 triumph T3 engine that had a rattling sound too (more like a tank though).

What is your recommodation as far as initial steps I should take? I was thinking of immediately changing the oil (myself) and look for any debris /bearings. If i find something then contact BRP?
If i don't, keep checking the magnectic plug every six months?

Thanks in advance.

Gerald

It's obviously hard to tell what noise/noises you're hearing just by a written description. One thing it could be is a normal noise from the cam chain tensioner. The F3 engine by virtue of being exposed is apt to demonstrate mechanical noises more than other models. The cam chain tensioner can be noisy on some bikes and not on others. I've noticed a great deal of inconsistency in noise levels and with some being very loud and others being very subtle.

[Seattle]

I've noticed after listening to a dozen or more of the F3 Spyders, every one of the engines produces a metallic sound similar to what my video portrays. Part of the reason I suspect is because the engine housing is completely exposed unlike the RT Spyders which has plastic covering most of the engine.

As for my shifter lever index failure, this apparently was unrelated to the noise. However, the issue was resolved finally as of yesterday.

Hello gentlemen (and ladies),

As a retirement gift to myself I just bought a used 2015 F3 with 2,400 miles. I have been riding it for about four months now and loving it more and more. Sadly, my first post here isn't a pic of me waving on a scenic road, instead I'm asking for advice from you on this thread. I did all the brakes on Spyder and and I'm able do basic maintenance but I got a little lost with the technical aspects of what really going on.

My engine has the noise described here. At first I thought it may be normal as my 1996 triumph T3 engine that had a rattling sound too (more like a tank though).

What is your recommodation as far as initial steps I should take? I was thinking of immediately changing the oil (myself) and look for any debris /bearings. If i find something then contact BRP?
If i don't, keep checking the magnectic plug every six months?

Thanks in advance.

Gerald

[JP58]

I've noticed after listening to a dozen or more of the F3 Spyders, every one of the engines produces a metallic sound similar to what my video portrays. Part of the reason I suspect is because the engine housing is completely exposed unlike the RT Spyders which has plastic covering most of the engine.

As for my shifter lever index failure, this apparently was unrelated to the noise. However, the issue was resolved finally as of yesterday.

So do you have your Spyder back?

[Seattle]

After being gone since August, yes. I rode it home yesterday 65 miles.

So do you have your Spyder back?

[JP58]

After being gone since August, yes. I rode it home yesterday 65 miles.

Hope you have many trouble free smiles from here on. My 2018 F3L has 11k on it and only had the shifter lever replaced at 8k. You get missed shifts at times. It's a problem with some 18-19. New supplier of shift levers I heard. Only took them 1 hour to replace under warranty. They test rode, confirmed and ordered part, brought back 3 days later when part came in. I'm happy with my F3L.

[MakoShark2]

Also got the very noticeable metallic noise on the left side of my F3S (MY2018)

It's been there since new. Worse when cold, with a warm engine it's hardly noticeable so I would suspect it might have to do with the dry sump design.

Glad you had that sorted out.