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Thread: No compression

  1. #51
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    Sorry to say but! That engine should have been disassembled, rods, crank, pistons, pins and bearings inspected and or replaced as necessary. Cylinders deglazed at minimum, new rings and clean and magnaflux heads and lap valves minimum. Tagging a valve like that can bend rods, crush bearings, crack cylinders, valve guides etc!!

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    That will be happening - or a used engine located I'd say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputter View Post
    Sorry to say but! That engine should have been disassembled, rods, crank, pistons, pins and bearings inspected and or replaced as necessary. Cylinders deglazed at minimum, new rings and clean and magnaflux heads and lap valves minimum. Tagging a valve like that can bend rods, crush bearings, crack cylinders, valve guides etc!!
    Yes and no. I do have my concerns about him posting there was metal in the filter. But going forward with a good attitude, these moto engines tend to differ in some ways than car engines. Yes they function the same, but most times on a valve impact incident, the reciprocating parts and bearings fair very well. Granted the head and valves take a beating. He replaced the head assembly. These heads being aluminum can not be magnafluxed like an iron head on a car. Like an aircraft engine head sometimes specialty shops can repair them, but in this case he got a replacement. As for deglazing the cylinder walls, Nikasil is a pretty tough surface and holds up well without glazing, add to this, you should use a diamond hone when working with Nikasil, as a conventional stone is too soft and can polish the cylinder walls making things worse.

    Granted the engine may be coming out and seeing a full teardown or simpler replacement. So much of this topic reverts to speculation by us posting since we are not there to work on it ourselves. I am optimistic it will run and run well, just have my reservations about the metal contamination in the oil. From the initial time I read this topic, and even today, I still wonder if the previous owner simply over revved the engine and the valve made contact with the piston dome. Add to this, the same original owner may have run the oil low or had a habit or revving it, and trashed a bottom end bearing.

    Again, I remain optimistic for this guy getting it running well, and hopefully the metal debris is simply break in residue or normal wear material. Myself, I did not see the debris and honestly do not know.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lively View Post
    I assumed it could be spooge at first but the quickly determined it not to be. i believe its oil and not coolant however i dont know for sure. The leakdown test should tell me once im able to perform it though.
    Coolant has a very distinctive smell. Especially if it has gone through the combustion cycle. You should be able to detect this smell in the exhaust gases if, indeed, it is coolant coming out the back.Oil also, to a lesser extent, will have a distinctive smell when burned. And if there is enough of it, it can leave a good bit of residue on cooler surfaces.

    I wish you luck with this endeavor. A noble effort to be sure! It's sometimes rewarding to roll the dice. It is noteworthy that the original offending cylinder is working well. And that it is the 'New' cylinder giving you issues.

    I think it very unlikely that the scavenger pumps (I believe that there are more than 1) are defective. If you have a scavenge issue, I would be more inclined to look for some kind of blockage or restriction. There is a metal mesh screen at the bottom of the reservoir. I would definitely take a look at that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    Coolant has a very distinctive smell. Especially if it has gone through the combustion cycle. You should be able to detect this smell in the exhaust gases if, indeed, it is coolant coming out the back.Oil also, to a lesser extent, will have a distinctive smell when burned. And if there is enough of it, it can leave a good bit of residue on cooler surfaces.

    I wish you luck with this endeavor. A noble effort to be sure! It's sometimes rewarding to roll the dice. It is noteworthy that the original offending cylinder is working well. And that it is the 'New' cylinder giving you issues.

    I think it very unlikely that the scavenger pumps (I believe that there are more than 1) are defective. If you have a scavenge issue, I would be more inclined to look for some kind of blockage or restriction. There is a metal mesh screen at the bottom of the reservoir. I would definitely take a look at that.
    Tend to agree. However, see if it will run on two cylinders first, but cautiously. If metal contaminated the suction screens to the oil pumps, it may be more than just a scavenge pump.

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    @pmk and everyone else. I Purchased the cylinder leak tester and all seemed well with both cylinders. I then started it and ran it again and smoke started coming out almost after a few moments then I removed I remove the Y connector in back of the exhaust and started it again but this time no smoke.

    When Started with exhaust y pipe remove I didn’t see any smoke. Could there just be that much build up in the muffler that’s causing smoke and any other issues?

    When I removed both spark plugs the untouched cylinder was wet and black, cleaned it up and started it again and let it warm up and removed the spark plug and it remained clean. Any thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Yes and no. I do have my concerns about him posting there was metal in the filter. But going forward with a good attitude, these moto engines tend to differ in some ways than car engines. Yes they function the same, but most times on a valve impact incident, the reciprocating parts and bearings fair very well. Granted the head and valves take a beating. He replaced the head assembly. These heads being aluminum can not be magnafluxed like an iron head on a car. Like an aircraft engine head sometimes specialty shops can repair them, but in this case he got a replacement. As for deglazing the cylinder walls, Nikasil is a pretty tough surface and holds up well without glazing, add to this, you should use a diamond hone when working with Nikasil, as a conventional stone is too soft and can polish the cylinder walls making things worse.

    Granted the engine may be coming out and seeing a full teardown or simpler replacement. So much of this topic reverts to speculation by us posting since we are not there to work on it ourselves. I am optimistic it will run and run well, just have my reservations about the metal contamination in the oil. From the initial time I read this topic, and even today, I still wonder if the previous owner simply over revved the engine and the valve made contact with the piston dome. Add to this, the same original owner may have run the oil low or had a habit or revving it, and trashed a bottom end bearing.

    Again, I remain optimistic for this guy getting it running well, and hopefully the metal debris is simply break in residue or normal wear material. Myself, I did not see the debris and honestly do not know.
    Actually you can do aluminum, just a slightly different process with dye and a powder material.
    Yes, I believe a diamond hone is all that can be used, and it is very thin and could require a trip to Millenium. I think the main problem is not knowing the extent of damage and putting a lot of labor and money into it and still having problems. To break a cam main takes some energy! If it were me I would inspect everything and replace as necessary and freshen the rest. But that's me! Years of racing and no time to do over leads me in that direction. I wish the OP the best outcome in his project.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lively View Post
    @pmk and everyone else. I Purchased the cylinder leak tester and all seemed well with both cylinders. I then started it and ran it again and smoke started coming out almost after a few moments then I removed I remove the Y connector in back of the exhaust and started it again but this time no smoke.

    When Started with exhaust y pipe remove I didn’t see any smoke. Could there just be that much build up in the muffler that’s causing smoke and any other issues?

    When I removed both spark plugs the untouched cylinder was wet and black, cleaned it up and started it again and let it warm up and removed the spark plug and it remained clean. Any thoughts?
    This sounds possible, the rear cylinder wasn't running and then the front. could be a lot of fuel/oil in the pre-muffler, the one under the bike. If both cylinders are running let it burn off the oil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highwayman2013 View Post
    This sounds possible, the rear cylinder wasn't running and then the front. could be a lot of fuel/oil in the pre-muffler, the one under the bike. If both cylinders are running let it burn off the oil.
    Is there a way to reset the check engine, and limp home mode?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lively View Post
    @pmk and everyone else. I Purchased the cylinder leak tester and all seemed well with both cylinders. I then started it and ran it again and smoke started coming out almost after a few moments then I removed I remove the Y connector in back of the exhaust and started it again but this time no smoke.

    When Started with exhaust y pipe remove I didn’t see any smoke. Could there just be that much build up in the muffler that’s causing smoke and any other issues?

    When I removed both spark plugs the untouched cylinder was wet and black, cleaned it up and started it again and let it warm up and removed the spark plug and it remained clean. Any thoughts?
    You mentioned earlier no spooge, but based on this post I quoted possibly it is a spooge issue. My opinion, remove the midpipe and rear muffler. Cap the ends and give it a flush out by filling it with solvent, and draining. After it dries out a bit, reinstall and run the bike for short intervals until the solvent evaporates.

    Want to add, what you did with the plugs sounds good. I would consider keeping an eye on them until the exhaust despooges and dries out. After that, if it seems good, give it an easy test ride near home.

    Sounds like you will have it dialed in shortly. Make sure you replace those two vacuum hoses too.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputter View Post
    Actually you can do aluminum, just a slightly different process with dye and a powder material.
    Yes, I believe a diamond hone is all that can be used, and it is very thin and could require a trip to Millenium. I think the main problem is not knowing the extent of damage and putting a lot of labor and money into it and still having problems. To break a cam main takes some energy! If it were me I would inspect everything and replace as necessary and freshen the rest. But that's me! Years of racing and no time to do over leads me in that direction. I wish the OP the best outcome in his project.

    Many people incorrectly believe that aluminum can be Magnafluxed. Magnaflux is a company name, associated with magnetic particle inspection, a process where a ferro magnetic item is magnetized and iron fillings, either dry or in a fluid suspension, and either visible in white light via the naked eye, or fluorescent requiring a black light to see indications.

    Magnaflux, the company also produces the process you indicated known as liquid penetrant inspection. Liquid penetrant process can also be accomplished with products visible in white light, or Zyglo which requires a black light. Zyglo penetrant are available in various sensitivities and methods to remove residual penetrant. The application of the powder, done correctly enhances visibility. Incorrectly done it will mask indication.

    A much better inspection method for non ferrous item, when the shape permits is eddy current inspection. Eddy current is able to detect subsurface defects and more.

    Each method has limitations, and requires a qualified, and ideally trained person accomplishing the inspection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Many people incorrectly believe that aluminum can be Magnafluxed. Magnaflux is a company name, associated with magnetic particle inspection, a process where a ferro magnetic item is magnetized and iron fillings, either dry or in a fluid suspension, and either visible in white light via the naked eye, or fluorescent requiring a black light to see indications.

    Magnaflux, the company also produces the process you indicated known as liquid penetrant inspection. Liquid penetrant process can also be accomplished with products visible in white light, or Zyglo which requires a black light. Zyglo penetrant are available in various sensitivities and methods to remove residual penetrant. The application of the powder, done correctly enhances visibility. Incorrectly done it will mask indication.

    A much better inspection method for non ferrous item, when the shape permits is eddy current inspection. Eddy current is able to detect subsurface defects and more.

    Each method has limitations, and requires a qualified, and ideally trained person accomplishing the inspection.
    Sounds about right. It has been many years since I worked with the different alloys and penetrants. I have 95% of my engine machine work done by people that are professionals and I double check everything before assembly. I used to have access to quite a bit, but long ago. For our applications, most aluminum damage is likely in the combustion chamber and visible to the naked eye. The high stress items are the ones that worry me though.

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    NO CODES, NO LIMP MODE, IT RUNS!!

    Bike is now running!!! Still smoking a bit out the tailpipe and from the outside of the pipe, gonna go for a 30 minute ride when i get a chance to try and burn it out. My only concern and this could be because i get paranoid, but the oil looks a little like it could have coolant. Brother in law disagreed. Oil level did seem to go up a bit though, coolant did go down but only about half an inch but i assume thats mainly because its filling all the air pockets. I will post a picture of the dipstick but idk if it will tell you much.

    Im also thinking it could be some of the old bad oil/coolant trapped inside from when i did the oil change, if anything. But it ran great i believe, didnt ride it before so i couldnt tell you.

    One other thing is, where is normal operating temp sit on these things. Mine seems to be one block above half, i took a picture but it came out blurry and didnt know till it cooled back off. Bike was ridden for only 5 minutes ranging from 20-60mph and then idled for another 3-5 minutes when i got that reading.

    They still both have excellent compression.
    IMG_1405.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lively View Post
    NO CODES, NO LIMP MODE, IT RUNS!!

    Bike is now running!!! Still smoking a bit out the tailpipe and from the outside of the pipe, gonna go for a 30 minute ride when i get a chance to try and burn it out. My only concern and this could be because i get paranoid, but the oil looks a little like it could have coolant. Brother in law disagreed. Oil level did seem to go up a bit though, coolant did go down but only about half an inch but i assume thats mainly because its filling all the air pockets. I will post a picture of the dipstick but idk if it will tell you much.

    Im also thinking it could be some of the old bad oil/coolant trapped inside from when i did the oil change, if anything. But it ran great i believe, didnt ride it before so i couldnt tell you.

    One other thing is, where is normal operating temp sit on these things. Mine seems to be one block above half, i took a picture but it came out blurry and didnt know till it cooled back off. Bike was ridden for only 5 minutes ranging from 20-60mph and then idled for another 3-5 minutes when i got that reading.

    They still both have excellent compression.
    IMG_1405.jpg
    Coolant dropping seems normal after what you have done. The oil, if checked cold will give an inaccurate reading. Check when bike is warmed up on a flat surface. Probably a good idea to change oil again in 500 miles or so to be sure any gunk or trapped garbage is flushed out. We admire your dedication! This has been a fun journey, especially when in the end it is a running Spyder!

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    I know you want to just ride. I hope you take the few minutes and flush the oil out of the exhaust. If you get it hot enough to carbonize on the small baffle holes, it will be very difficult to save the exhaust.

    These bikes are too temperamental to sometimes even the smallest issues. Avoid creating a new problem.

    You could even use Dawn dish soap flushed through the exhaust, but solvent would be better.

    After rinsing the exhaust, go enjoy it.

    Put no more than 100 miles on it, drain the oil through a funnel lined with a papertowel. Lay the towel out and inspect for metal. If minimal, do the same at 500 miles. If you capture the oil in a clean container, it can be reused. Even filter it again as you pour it back in. Metal in the oil will be a good indicator of the engines health.

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    Or just look inside the oil filter pleats. Any material WILL show up there. Filters are cheap plus it's a lot quicker and easier.

    Metal in the FILTER will be a BAD indicator of the engine's health.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
    Or just look inside the oil filter. Any material WILL show up there. Filters are cheap plus it's a lot quicker and easier.

    Metal in the FILTER will be a BAD indicator of the engine's health.
    Agree, but in this case, the filter element should be cut from the core and laid out flat for inspection. Or at a minimum, the filter should be washed in a clean plastic tub using clean mineral spirits or gasoline, then inspect the residue in the bottom of the plastic tub.

    If the exhaust does not choke and the engine is not making metal, he should have a fun machine for short money and effort.

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    Hoping for the best! Keep us posted!

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    Someone mentioned the screen in the oil return line, make sure that you pull it apart and clean it before you ride it to much.

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    I am no mechanic, and have nothing to add to this. But I will say that I am amazed by your dedication and am hoping for the best. Please keep us updated, as this has been a very interesting read.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    I know you want to just ride. I hope you take the few minutes and flush the oil out of the exhaust. If you get it hot enough to carbonize on the small baffle holes, it will be very difficult to save the exhaust.

    These bikes are too temperamental to sometimes even the smallest issues. Avoid creating a new problem.

    You could even use Dawn dish soap flushed through the exhaust, but solvent would be better.

    After rinsing the exhaust, go enjoy it.

    Put no more than 100 miles on it, drain the oil through a funnel lined with a papertowel. Lay the towel out and inspect for metal. If minimal, do the same at 500 miles. If you capture the oil in a clean container, it can be reused. Even filter it again as you pour it back in. Metal in the oil will be a good indicator of the engines health.
    I planned on rechanging the oil or at leastr filtering it like you mentioned. I have cleaned out car exausts and whatnot by just running them i didnt know this would be any different but thanks for telling me. I will definitely go get some solvent then.

    As for this screen, can anyone tell me its location exactly and what it looks like so i know what im looking for.

    As for metal in the oil, i feel like i will find some of the remains from the no-longer existing problem, but it shouldnt be too much.

    Did the oil on the towel look too light in color? however i red that since the oil level is higher than it should be that creates frothing which makes the bubbles as well.

    Thank you everyone for the help, and i hope this helps someone else in the future! Not done yet but just wanted to give my thanks! (i hope im almost done though lmao)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lively View Post
    I planned on rechanging the oil or at leastr filtering it like you mentioned. I have cleaned out car exausts and whatnot by just running them i didnt know this would be any different but thanks for telling me. I will definitely go get some solvent then.

    As for this screen, can anyone tell me its location exactly and what it looks like so i know what im looking for.

    As for metal in the oil, i feel like i will find some of the remains from the no-longer existing problem, but it shouldnt be too much.

    Did the oil on the towel look too light in color? however i red that since the oil level is higher than it should be that creates frothing which makes the bubbles as well.

    Thank you everyone for the help, and i hope this helps someone else in the future! Not done yet but just wanted to give my thanks! (i hope im almost done though lmao)
    My concern with the exhaust is similar to what we see in two stroke exhausts. The oil / carbon builds up on the silencer baffle holes and restricts them over time. Flushing yours should be easy, and helps assure that as the oil is moved and burn, it does not turn to hard carbon, restricting the exhaust.

    If the engine / gearbox is not making metal, you should be in good shape. The parts books will show the various suction screens. Typically they are large to lessen any clogging concerns. Make that a third step after the exhaust and draining / straining / inspecting the oil that is drained.

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    The screen is attached to / part of the tank outlet fitting at the base of the tank where the hose goes to the engine. Remove the hose, unscrew the fitting from the tank an voila, there you have it.
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    Keep an eye out, as stock exhaust for that model should not be hard to find. You might be able to get one gifted to you from someone who has upgraded to an aftermarket system. Might be able to get it for shipping cost.
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    I have a stock exhaust off the 2012 Can Am RS-S. I would be happy to let you have it for shipping costs...my wife and I call get the quote together by the weekend, but I definitely have one on hand, and I am not going back to stock....I like my rides noisy. Let me know if it works for you, and I am happy to help.

    And I also want to mention your dedication to this project is very admirable, and you did outstanding work IMHO. Thanks for sharing this journey with us, and thank you to all the experts providing resources and guidance on this, it really should be required reading for new owners. I know I learned a ton.
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