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Thread: No compression

  1. #26
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bayoubill View Post
    i buy and fix a lot of 4 wheelers to re-sell, i see this a lot, its usually run low on oil or a timing chain or gear problem that causes it.
    And these engines are known to use a bit of oil between oil changes. Again, hopefully this is an easy fix and low cost.

  2. #27
    Active Member bayoubill's Avatar
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    be sure to check piston pin to rod fit and rod to crank fit
    2015 rs

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    Cam shafts seem okey, however the used head i ordered on ebay is complete so it will have everything.

    @freddy i was able to retrieve the Tensioner!
    @Haikanko The oil was pretty low when i got it, none what so ever in the tank.
    @navydad piston looks good after cleaning it, i only see one spot with a little scarring but i believe its usable? Thoughts anyone?

    As for metal flakes i put my magnet in the oil that i could access from the piston area and it didnt pull up any flakes. I will inspect the filter later though as well.

    Head arrives Thursday.

    IMG_1209.jpg

  4. #29
    Active Member bayoubill's Avatar
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    as i said in the post above your last be sure to check piston pin to rod and rod bottom end, especially the piston pin end of the rod, a lot of times if they are run low on oil the piston end of the rod will be shot where the pin goes through.
    2015 rs

  5. #30
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    Not sure what this engine uses for cam chain tension but I'd prob consider replacing that assy, as well as the chain. You're in there, and know that something went bad..

  6. #31
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    Good you were able to retrieve the tensioner Lively. I would reuse the piston now having seen it cleaned up. The contact between it and the valve would not have caused any further damage lower down in my experience with similar engines running 'shell' bearings (as distinct from roller bearings) but check, as bayoubill suggests. As it was low on oil, an inspection of the oil filter may shed more light on the other damaged tho a magnet will be of little use as any metal would most likely be non-magnetic ie soft bearing metal or aluminium. No doubt you've drained the remainder of the oil from the crankcase - what did you see in there? It will be most helpful to know. But it's a big worry that there was none in the tank - I wonder it if had been drained when the previous owner or dealer was 'looking into it.'

    Importantly, have you been able to identify a probably cause of the failure - or is it all a bit of a mess? I've seen similar head/cam damage, but not on a Spyder engine.
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  7. #32
    Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Peter Aawen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
    .......

    MOST Importantly, have you been able to identify a probable cause of the failure - or is it all a bit of a mess? I have seen similar damage, but not on a Spyder engine.
    Fixed that Bolded/Italicised bit for you Freddy!

    Maybe it's just me, but this damage &/or the sequence of events that could've created it is sounding more'n more just a little 'odd'?!

    The damage shown seems to be a bit of an odd thing just to have happened out of the blue, at least with as it presents so far, having little indications of potential causes evident, like no real signs being run for long without oil or of the engine having significant timing issues... What with the minimal piston/valve contact damage & the apparent lack of oil, I can't help but think that possibly someone (the previous owner?? a dodgy dealer tech?? ) started to work on the undamaged engine (to do what? a valve adjust maybe?) but messed up (something?) early in the piece & instead of continuing, tried to hide whatever it was they'd started/messed up & simply passed the whole thing on as quick as you'd pass on a ticking brown paper wrapped bundle found in an Irish Pub during The Troubles!?

    Or is that just me being a suspicious barsteward with an overly cynical view on life?
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 09-20-2019 at 08:37 PM.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
    Camshaft cap broken eh?!?! Incredible. It sounds like he might have attempted a valve adjustment and got it all wrong, which is about all that would explain the damage.
    @peter aawen, i think freddys quote seems to be the most likely. because when i looked at the Cam cap again today when cleaning the garage up and organizing, i noticed cracks in 2 more spots that were sure to brake very soon.

    @Bayoubill, I will inspect. I hope they are fine!!! Really wish it were just headgaskets at this point... would already be nearly done.

  9. #34
    Very Active Member pegasus1300's Avatar
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    Lively when you go to putting that engine back together you can use an appropriate sized hose clamp to compress the rings, esp the oil ring. When you get the cylinder down over the rings you can then completely open up the hose clamp to remove it and your rings will be safe in the cylinder. Good luck on the rebuild, you seem to have been going along just fine so far.

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  10. #35
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus1300 View Post
    Lively when you go to putting that engine back together you can use an appropriate sized hose clamp to compress the rings
    Thanks @pegasus1300 that trick saved me some money and worked like a charm.

    UPDATE: Sorry everyone i took a pretty long break away from the bike to handle some other things just got back to working on it last weekend and now mechanically shes all back together. Im getting 150PSI from that cylinder now. Currently charging the batter crossing my fingers it still works. Also crossing my fingers that the bike itself works now haha. I did find ALOT of metal in the filter and filter housing which i assume came from the stuck valves and cam bearings.

    What was done: Replaced piston rings, Spark plugs, used Cylinder head + cam cap w/everything, all gaskets, oil + filter, couple hoses, couple other things im sure.

    Wish me luck that it fires up tomorrow with no issues haha.

  12. #37
    Very Active Member Mikey's Avatar
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    We are all crossing our fingers for you!!! Hope everything runs as should!!
    2012 RTL , Pearl

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lively View Post
    Thanks @pegasus1300 that trick saved me some money and worked like a charm.

    UPDATE: Sorry everyone i took a pretty long break away from the bike to handle some other things just got back to working on it last weekend and now mechanically shes all back together. Im getting 150PSI from that cylinder now. Currently charging the batter crossing my fingers it still works. Also crossing my fingers that the bike itself works now haha. I did find ALOT of metal in the filter and filter housing which i assume came from the stuck valves and cam bearings.

    What was done: Replaced piston rings, Spark plugs, used Cylinder head + cam cap w/everything, all gaskets, oil + filter, couple hoses, couple other things im sure.

    Wish me luck that it fires up tomorrow with no issues haha.
    Curious, was the metal bright shiny aluminum, darker colored like copper or bronze, or shiny and magnetic like steel? Those parameters can give insight into where the metal in the filter possibly came from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Curious, was the metal bright shiny aluminum, darker colored like copper or bronze, or shiny and magnetic like steel? Those parameters can give insight into where the metal in the filter possibly came from.
    Very shiny, part of it was clumped together but it was clumped in the aluminum housing so id assume non-magnetic but i didnt check for magnetism unfortunately.

    Starts but only on one cylinder.... not the cylinder i repaired either, the untouched one. Im getting spark, still have 150 psi, and when i pulled the plug it did smell like fuel however it was dry.... IDEAS?

    Edit: So i pulled both small hoses what i believe are the fuel hoses the go to the bottom side of the throttle body, no fuel when starting... so now im wondering why the fuel is getting to one and not the other. I checked the injector the way my grandpa taught me when he was still around and put a flat head to the injector/ear and listen for the clicks and they sounded good. So im kinda stuck and running around like a chicken with my head cut off till i figure it out or get some advise that works haha.

  15. #40
    Active Member bayoubill's Avatar
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    did you double check the timing?
    just saw your edit with no gas so it wouldn't be timing
    2015 rs

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    Quote Originally Posted by bayoubill View Post
    did you double check the timing?
    just saw your edit with no gas so it wouldn't be timing
    I’m not 100% sure that there’s no gas. I did think about double checking timing however I installed it with all the lines matching up correctly so I don’t see how I could’ve messed up the timing and when it does turn over I don’t hear anything wrong with the cylinder no odd noises.

    Is the only way to check the timing by removing the valve cover setting the cylinder to top dead center and making sure all the Markings align?

  17. #42
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lively View Post
    I’m not 100% sure that there’s no gas. I did think about double checking timing however I installed it with all the lines matching up correctly so I don’t see how I could’ve messed up the timing and when it does turn over I don’t hear anything wrong with the cylinder no odd noises.

    Is the only way to check the timing by removing the valve cover setting the cylinder to top dead center and making sure all the Markings align?
    Cam timing, yes. As the person doing the task of assembling the engine, when you got it timed, meaning cams installed but no valve cover installed, did you wind the engine through by hand and verify / double check your settings?

    I believe you posted having compression psi, so that to is a good indicator that mechanically you are ok about the assembly.

    If it were me, I would be looking at fuel delivery to that cylinder after being certain all electrical items are securely connected and there is spark.

  18. #43
    Very Active Member Mikey's Avatar
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    Are you sure that injectors good? How hard would it be to flip flop them over and see if it fires the new side?? Just a thought
    2012 RTL , Pearl

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    Okay i got the bike running!

    UNFORTUNATELY something is ALSO wrong with cylinder one... compression is good, but oil is coming from the exhaust from that cylinder, and smoke. I assume its oil. I dont even know where to start, i was soo happy when it started then that took a u-turn.

    3 codes pop up:
    P0130
    P2545
    C0040

    Dont think any of those would help diagnose why oil is coming out of my exhaust. My only ASSUMPTION is the valve seats, i dont say rings because the compression is still good but honestly im reaching for an answer. How do i go about diagnosing a bad valve seat vs piston rings?

    oil.jpg

    Sorry it was getting dark, hope the picture may help. It looks white with maybe a hint of blue to me. Im bad at judging that though.

  20. #45
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lively View Post
    Okay i got the bike running!

    UNFORTUNATELY something is ALSO wrong with cylinder one... compression is good, but oil is coming from the exhaust from that cylinder, and smoke. I assume its oil. I dont even know where to start, i was soo happy when it started then that took a u-turn.

    3 codes pop up:
    P0130
    P2545
    C0040

    Dont think any of those would help diagnose why oil is coming out of my exhaust. My only ASSUMPTION is the valve seats, i dont say rings because the compression is still good but honestly im reaching for an answer. How do i go about diagnosing a bad valve seat vs piston rings?

    oil.jpg

    Sorry it was getting dark, hope the picture may help. It looks white with maybe a hint of blue to me. Im bad at judging that though.
    The tool of choice to diagnose valve concerns, worn rings, and even sometimes a bad head gasket would be a differential cylinder compression tester or a leakdown tester. Both inspect by inflating the cylinder with air via the spark plug hole.

    Consider too, any issues with the scavenge pump may allow oil to remain in the dry sump

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Consider too, any issues with the scavenge pump may allow oil to remain in the dry sump
    Can you elaborate, assume i dont know what the scavenge pump is, and how that could cause the smoke. PLEASE

    And how do i test the the pump is working? im assuming by a little bit of google search that the scavenge pump is a pump that pumps the oil out of the oil res?

    edit: just watched a video how to do a leakdown test and the guy mentioned that if smoke comes out the throttle body it can be worn valves, sorry i forgot to mention that that did happen as well. Would you agree to that? i will do a leakdown test as well, just hoping a local parts store rents them im tired of buying tools im only gonna use once or twice haha.

  22. #47
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    It won't be valves or their seats - more likely damaged rings when assembled thusly.

    Thanks @pegasus1300 that trick saved me some money and worked like a charm.
    The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.

  23. #48
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lively View Post
    Can you elaborate, assume i dont know what the scavenge pump is, and how that could cause the smoke. PLEASE

    And how do i test the the pump is working? im assuming by a little bit of google search that the scavenge pump is a pump that pumps the oil out of the oil res?

    edit: just watched a video how to do a leakdown test and the guy mentioned that if smoke comes out the throttle body it can be worn valves, sorry i forgot to mention that that did happen as well. Would you agree to that? i will do a leakdown test as well, just hoping a local parts store rents them im tired of buying tools im only gonna use once or twice haha.
    The Rotax engines in the Spyders are dry sump designs, unlike most cars or trucks that are wet sump design. In a dry sump engine, the scavenge pump will take oil that has lubricated the engine and return it to the oil tank, where the primary oil pump is able to circulate it through the engine again. This is why, checking oil levels on a dry sump engine must be done after the engine has run a few minutes. These few minutes pump the oil, which will over time back drain into the engine / out of the reservoir and indicate low on oil level until started and oil is scavenged.

    Other than visually inspecting, I am not aware of a test for the s avenge pump. If the oil is not removed from the dry sump areas, it could work its way past the piston / rings.

    Not sure if leak down equipment is loaned or rented. Used correctly, you can quickly sort through some possible concerns.

    Is there any chance you are simply seeing spooge that accumulated in the exhaust from the previous damage simply being burned off the exhaust interior parts.

    Another possibility is that maybe it is not oil, but coolant.

    Not being there to actually see and smell the exhaust makes it simply best guesses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
    It won't be valves or their seats - more likely damaged rings when assembled thusly.

    Thanks @pegasus1300 that trick saved me some money and worked like a charm.
    The problem is no longer coming from the cylinder i repaired but the other cylinder i didnt touch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    The Rotax engines in the Spyders are dry sump designs, unlike most cars or trucks that are wet sump design. In a dry sump engine, the scavenge pump will take oil that has lubricated the engine and return it to the oil tank, where the primary oil pump is able to circulate it through the engine again. This is why, checking oil levels on a dry sump engine must be done after the engine has run a few minutes. These few minutes pump the oil, which will over time back drain into the engine / out of the reservoir and indicate low on oil level until started and oil is scavenged.

    Other than visually inspecting, I am not aware of a test for the s avenge pump. If the oil is not removed from the dry sump areas, it could work its way past the piston / rings.

    Not sure if leak down equipment is loaned or rented. Used correctly, you can quickly sort through some possible concerns.

    Is there any chance you are simply seeing spooge that accumulated in the exhaust from the previous damage simply being burned off the exhaust interior parts.

    Another possibility is that maybe it is not oil, but coolant.

    Not being there to actually see and smell the exhaust makes it simply best guesses.
    I assumed it could be spooge at first but the quickly determined it not to be. i believe its oil and not coolant however i dont know for sure. The leakdown test should tell me once im able to perform it though.

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