Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 32
  1. #1
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    300
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default Sprocket, red dust and refurb....

    Firstly, thanks to you folks on the forum, without you I wouldn‘t have been aware of the front sprocket rusting issue.

    This Spyder RT is off on a five week trip soon and it‘s at 16-17k miles on the odometer, right where some of you indicated you had a sprocket spline failure - best check it out and lucky I did.

    Below you‘ll find sequential pictures of what was found and the refurbishment sequence, starting with how to remove the belt in less than 10 seconds without dismantling anything; folk don‘t seem to believe this, it‘s too easy. Just keep pulling the top of the belt sideways and rotate the wheel. Refitting, from the bottom, slip the belt onto to the teeth as far as you can then rotate the wheel upwards, 5 seconds only! Oops, I see the pictures have uploaded in reverse order...

    Anyway, on with the spline story.
    No red dust to be seen so all looked good, put the big C-spanner into the holes of the sprocket to hold it still and the big breaker bar onto the bolt head and prepared to pull hard.... Yikes, the bolt was loose! It screwed out with only the drag of the thread lock compound. The end of the sprocket and the splines were red rusty and the sprocket was unwilling to come off even after working around its edge tapping with a hammer, small puffs of red dust were emitted from the splines on every tap of the hammer. Levering and tapping came to nought. Ooo, not looking good. Best give it a squirt of release oil, let it sit and get the big puller out.

    Well, no need, as soon as the oil penetrated (very quickly) the sprocket slipped off with just finger pressure - too weird. As can be seen from the picture, red rust everywhere; so began the clean up. Washed it clean with solvent and used wet or dry paper to clean up the splines and the shaft.

    The rear of the sprocket is worn away in the contact area of the shoulder of the shaft and it looks as though this wear releases the clamping pressure of the bolt so the sprocket is free to move on its splines, once that happens moisture gets in and rusting starts in a big way and serious wear begins its destruction. This wear ridge can be seen in the pictures and also there are pictures of the sprocket after refacing the end surfaces ready for refitting. The shoulder on the shaft is very small and provides little contact for the loads it has to support - a bit of a design failure there imho.

    The sprocket is made from cast iron and cast iron rusts very readily. It contains free carbon which is released when it is machined and this leaves minute pits in the surface into which moisture settles. The iron, water and carbon make a nice little electric cell so galvanic corrosion sets in rapidly.

    I‘m aware that some folks think the red dust is caused by a fretting phenomena, and in some cases perhaps it is but study of the spline pictures shown below indicate little rusting of the pressure surfaces and much rusting of the non-contact surfaces, spline roots, chamfers, shaft end and even inside the shaft bolt clearance hole. I‘ve no doubt that, given time, the whole lot would become nothing more than a rusty mess ready to finally fail, so, with a bit of luck this one is caught in time.

    Some things to note:
    The shaft is seriously hard, a centre punch nor a file would mark it.
    But, the shoulder of the shaft where the sprocket abuts is worn and slightly burred. Hmm...

    The depth of the threaded hole was checked to ensure the bolt didn‘t bottom out and give a false torque reading on tightening - it appeared to be OK.

    The back of the bolt head was lightly machined to reface it and to check it was true to the shank of the bolt. It was accurate though the hex head was offset somewhat from the centre line of the bolt shank. Poor manufacture but adequate I guess.

    The length of the sprocket boss was checked against the shaft spline length to ensure the bolt did not bottom out on the shaft end when tightening. It was very close and a 2mm spacer was made to make up for the material removed when refacing the sprocket boss.
    If refitting a sprocket is undertaken, this clearance should be checked carefully since any wear between the sprocket boss and/or the shaft shoulder, as in this case, will allow the sprocket to settle further onto the shaft.

    Presuming the bolt had been tightened to the correct torque at manufacture, then that tightening is inadequate since it allows movement of the sprocket on the shaft leading to inevitable failure. There was no point in simply repeating this so the tightening torque was increased to 110lb/ft in the hope that this will be sufficient. Fingers crossed. There is a grade of high tensile bolt with strength in excess of the standard one which would allow a higher tightening torque, it could be a good idea provided the internal thread in the shaft can take the strain. Who‘s going to be the first to try it out?

    In the event of a re-failure there are plans for a complete remanufacture of the sprocket clamping mechanism.

    Since, in this case, the bolt was slack but for the locking compound, a good service check would be to simply test the tightness of the bolt. Easily done at oil change time, especially on the V-twin bikes since the side panel is removed anyway. Bear in mind that no red dust was externally present.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Toowoomba Qld Australia
    Posts
    267
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Great write up and pics. Note to self add that to the mechanic's list. Thanks for posting.
    Enjoy you trip. Going anywhere interesting?
    2014 ST-S , Cognac

  3. #3
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    300
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by glennm View Post
    Going anywhere interesting?
    Yup, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Germany, Austria and perhaps a wee trip into Andorra and Spain over the Pyrenees. Not in any particular order, we follow whim and weather.

  4. #4
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    94
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Would you please tell us which year Spyder you have? Thanks!

  5. #5
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    300
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IgoFar2 View Post
    Would you please tell us which year Spyder you have? Thanks!
    Yes, sorry. 2017. I might add that there were signs of there being some lubricant in there from manufacture but it wasn't much, just a little almost dried remains in the end groove past the splines.

  6. #6
    Very Active Member Mikey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Durham,Maine
    Posts
    3,595
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Good job and have a great trip if you think about it!!! We can all live threw you, threw the pictures!!! Good Luck
    2012 RTL , Pearl

  7. #7
    Very Active Member Sarge707's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    3,658
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    My F3 is at 17,300 miles and New Bolt put on at 10,000 is VERY tight. I'll wait for it to fail or show symptoms since AMA will tow me home 35 miles for free and I'm usually no more than 50 miles radius from the house. For the Long Trip you were Very Wise!!!

    2015 F3 sm6, Custom Dynamics fender lights.

    Sea Doo GTI-SE 90 Jet Ski!!

  8. #8
    Very Active Member Chupaca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    San Diego, CA.
    Posts
    31,097
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default Very similar...

    20150630_104832.jpg 20150630_104820.jpg 20150630_121226.jpg 20150630_121204.jpg On mine the bolt streched and was loose, the sprocket would slide about drying the shaft and creating the rusting. You can see the end worn on the sprocket compared to the new one. Swapped out the flywheel and re-installed with new bolt and washer and all has been good. I found the problem when I shut down the engine and my mp3 and coasted into the garage and could hear a knuckle grinding sound. So checked the torque on the bolt and it was loose so re-torqued till I got the new parts....
    Gene and Ilana De Laney
    Mt. Helix, California

    ​2012 RS sm5
    2012 RS sm5 , 998cc V-Twin 106hp DIY brake and park brake Classic Black

  9. #9
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Central VERMONT
    Posts
    20,269
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chupaca View Post
    20150630_104832.jpg 20150630_104820.jpg 20150630_121226.jpg 20150630_121204.jpg On mine the bolt streched and was loose, the sprocket would slide about drying the shaft and creating the rusting. You can see the end worn on the sprocket compared to the new one. Swapped out the flywheel and re-installed with new bolt and washer and all has been good. I found the problem when I shut down the engine and my mp3 and coasted into the garage and could hear a knuckle grinding sound. So checked the torque on the bolt and it was loose so re-torqued till I got the new parts....
    THE BOLT STRETCHED … I don't think I've ever seen that happen …. Since I'm sure you re-placed that bolt was New one shorter ???? …. Glad you cought it ….. Mike

  10. #10
    Very Active Member Chupaca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    San Diego, CA.
    Posts
    31,097
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Strange as it may seem... when I re-torqued it so I could keep rydeing till the parts came in from Cheapcycleparts.com I could not go to the full recommended torque as I could feel it stretching or at best mushy...
    Gene and Ilana De Laney
    Mt. Helix, California

    ​2012 RS sm5
    2012 RS sm5 , 998cc V-Twin 106hp DIY brake and park brake Classic Black

  11. #11
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Hunter Valley NSW Australia
    Posts
    626
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkRosePetal View Post
    Firstly, thanks to you folks on the forum, without you I wouldn‘t have been aware of the front sprocket rusting issue.

    ...
    A wee poke around with my Camera probe a few weeks ago showed I have the same issue, luckily I have a 3 year warranty so I hope to have it sorted soon, because we here in Australia barrack for the Canadian Swim team because we suspect parts come to Australia taped to the back of a swimmer - so Go Canada!!!
    2017 RTL , White

  12. #12
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    906
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chupaca View Post
    Strange as it may seem... when I re-torqued it so I could keep rydeing till the parts came in from Cheapcycleparts.com I could not go to the full recommended torque as I could feel it stretching or at best mushy...
    That would suggest that there are lower & higher grade bolts being used. What makings do folks have on the head of the bolt on their trike?

    Mine has 10.9 - which I retorqued to 110 ftlb about 7 years ago. No sign of red dust before or since.

    "A tempered medium carbon steel. Class 10.9 is stronger than class 8.8, and is commonly found in high strength automotive applications. Class 10.9 is similar to grade 8 imperial. Zinc plated for moderate corrosion resistance"
    The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.

  13. #13
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    300
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chupaca View Post
    Strange as it may seem... when I re-torqued it so I could keep rydeing till the parts came in from Cheapcycleparts.com I could not go to the full recommended torque as I could feel it stretching or at best mushy...
    I think you've reached the yield point of the bolt. When metal is stretched it pretty much carries the load and then it reaches its yield point. At this time it continues to carry the same load but by continuing loading it, it stretches. After this the metal begins to thin and this is the start of complete failure. I'd check the accuracy of your torque wrench, it wouldn't be unusual to have a 10% error.

    On a different bike I worked on the sprocket for a completely different reason but tightened the bolt until I felt it yield then checked the torque and it was approx 120lb/ft. That's why I set 110lb/ft this time and why I mentioned a stronger bolt. Of course, I've no idea of the accuracy of my torque wrench either!


    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy
    ...Mine has 10.9 - which I retorqued to 110 ftlb about 7 years ago. No sign of red dust before or since...
    That's good to know since mine also is a 10.9 bolt and now at 110. (ish).
    Rule#2: Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level & then beat you with experience.
    Rule#1: Refer to rule #2.

  14. #14
    Very Active Member Chupaca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    San Diego, CA.
    Posts
    31,097
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkRosePetal View Post
    I think you've reached the yield point of the bolt. When metal is stretched it pretty much carries the load and then it reaches its yield point. At this time it continues to carry the same load but by continuing loading it, it stretches. After this the metal begins to thin and this is the start of complete failure. I'd check the accuracy of your torque wrench, it wouldn't be unusual to have a 10% error.

    On a different bike I worked on the sprocket for a completely different reason but tightened the bolt until I felt it yield then checked the torque and it was approx 120lb/ft. That's why I set 110lb/ft this time and why I mentioned a stronger bolt. Of course, I've no idea of the accuracy of my torque wrench either!


    That's good to know since mine also is a 10.9 bolt and now at 110. (ish).
    It is recommended that bolt NOT be reused as well as the washer. I replaced them as well as the flywheel weight bolts. They come with the loctite already on them...
    Gene and Ilana De Laney
    Mt. Helix, California

    ​2012 RS sm5
    2012 RS sm5 , 998cc V-Twin 106hp DIY brake and park brake Classic Black

  15. #15
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Yorktown, VA
    Posts
    40
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    What is BRP's recommended torque value for the pulley bolt?
    Bruce
    Yorktown, VA
    '08 Spyder GS

  16. #16
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    95
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    92 ft/lb +/- 4 ft/lb Per 2015 Can Am Spyder F3 Repair and Maintenance Manual.

  17. #17
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    906
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    That's the same as the later V2 engines. When I did mine I checked the max torque a bolt of that spec was made to handle - 135 ftlb. I went roughly 15% higher (with a new OEM bolt ) than the revised BRP spec of ~95 (which is roughly 15% higher than the early/original factory torque on the V2 engines which had the first round of failures). I see no problem reusing the hardened washer. Heck, checking the bolt's torque and tightening it to the correct tension is much better than not knowing when/if it's going to strip the splines and leave you stranded, as we've seen reported. But if it has red dust thereabouts, check a little deeper.
    The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.

  18. #18
    Very Active Member RICZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    2,735
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Which Loctite is used? Red or Blue?
    Ours is a red, black and chrome 2017 F3 Limited. Bought new in 2/2019. The avatar is my first bike back in 1952, a Simplex Servi-Cycle. Photo taken at the Barber Museum.
    2017 F3 Limited , Red, Black & Chrome

  19. #19
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    906
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    The OEM bolt has thread locker imbedded in the thread.
    The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.

  20. #20
    Very Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    827
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Just going to throw this out there. I bought a new bolt for my inspection, it's a flange head M12 X 60 DIN 6921 S Grip. Built in washer. My 2019 RTL manual has the torque at 111 Ft/Lb ±4 Ft/Lb. That's 150 n ±5 N for our friends across the way.

    Drive System.jpg
    h0gr1der
    2018 RT Limited Blue/Chrome SE6 *Tri-Axis Bars*Adjustable Driver Backrest*175/55R15 Vredestein Front, 205/60R15 Vredestein Rear Tires*Baja Ron Front Spring Pre-Load Adjusters*Misty Mountain Sheepskin seat cover*Centramatic balancers *Garmin Zumo 595LM GPS*KOTT Grills*BajaRon swaybar*SpyderPops Alignment*Missing Belt guard*Magnetic Mirrors*Custom Rear Adjustable Shock*360° LED Headlights & Foglights*Progressive front fender turn signals
    States Visited on Less than 4 wheels.

  21. #21
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    906
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    It's very interesting that the torque spec has been increased to what I believed was more appropriate some years ago. I note that a hardened washer is not shown in the parts illustration - curiously. What markings are on the head of the bolt h0gr1der?


    Edit: The parts list for the V2 shows a bolt 65mm long with a hard washer that's about 5mm thick.

    https://www.powersportsdiscount.com/...ve-system-rear
    The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.

  22. #22
    Very Active Member RICZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    2,735
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
    The OEM bolt has thread locker imbedded in the thread.
    I ask because I need to know which Loctite in the event I buy a replacement bolt that is not OEM. I have a screw supplier in my neighborhood that carries a huge variety. I'll wager his prices are a lot less that BRP's.
    Ours is a red, black and chrome 2017 F3 Limited. Bought new in 2/2019. The avatar is my first bike back in 1952, a Simplex Servi-Cycle. Photo taken at the Barber Museum.
    2017 F3 Limited , Red, Black & Chrome

  23. #23
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    906
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    It's unlikely that your supplier will have a flange-head bolt - you would have to fit a hardened washer to it and it needs to be 10.9 grade and 60 or 65mm long depending on the washer thickness. But for $12 why bother?
    The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.

  24. #24
    Very Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    827
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RICZ View Post
    I ask because I need to know which Loctite in the event I buy a replacement bolt that is not OEM. I have a screw supplier in my neighborhood that carries a huge variety. I'll wager his prices are a lot less that BRP's.
    Mr. RICZ,

    The flange on the OEM new style bolt head is very large compared to normal flange head bolts. It has yellow encapsulated thread locker already on the threads and costs 10.49 each from Cheap Cycle Parts. Arrives in about a week to a week and a half.
    h0gr1der
    2018 RT Limited Blue/Chrome SE6 *Tri-Axis Bars*Adjustable Driver Backrest*175/55R15 Vredestein Front, 205/60R15 Vredestein Rear Tires*Baja Ron Front Spring Pre-Load Adjusters*Misty Mountain Sheepskin seat cover*Centramatic balancers *Garmin Zumo 595LM GPS*KOTT Grills*BajaRon swaybar*SpyderPops Alignment*Missing Belt guard*Magnetic Mirrors*Custom Rear Adjustable Shock*360° LED Headlights & Foglights*Progressive front fender turn signals
    States Visited on Less than 4 wheels.

  25. #25
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    300
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by h0gr1der View Post
    ... I bought a new bolt for my inspection, it's a flange head M12 X 60 DIN 6921 S Grip. Built in washer.
    The standard thread pitch for an M12 bolt is 1.75mm, I didn't measure mine because it didn't occur to me but I'm sure it was a much finer pitch. How'd you like to measure it for us all Mr, h0gr1der?

    Quote Originally Posted by h0gr1der View Post
    .My 2019 RTL manual has the torque at 111 Ft/Lb ±4 Ft/Lb. That's 150 n ±5 N for our friends across the way.
    That's good info, it puts my guess right on the button. Thanks for looking it up.


    On the locktite thing, I use general purpose thread lock compound and it's purple in colour.
    Rule#2: Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level & then beat you with experience.
    Rule#1: Refer to rule #2.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •