Catastrophic failure

[UtahPete]

WAS it a effective tire or was the tire running low on air or other factors that would cause this to happen?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[UtahPete]

Its very simple really. Cheap, low quality chinese tires. Its really amazing there has not been more of these type failures with the very weak construction Kenda tires.

Amazing, and telling perhaps?

[Firefly]

The Kenda's are 2-ply CRAP... 2 ply !!!
With only 2-ply what do you expect.....

[bikerbillone]

Two ply, egads, I don't know much about tires, but two ply on a motorcycle/3 wheeler?

[Freddy]

Just another example - we didn't get what we paid for.

[Tenic]

Has anyone considered that BRP's engineers are no doubt very aware that the Kenda tires that they put on the Spyders are two ply and that the rubber is softer than a car tire? Maybe it was designed that way to accommodate the weight and unique suspension of the Spyder. I have no doubt that a stronger/ harder car tire would last longer, but is it as safe under all conditions, i.e. wet roads, etc... ? Is this akin to the philosophy that a 30 amp fuse is better than a 10 amp, because it won't blow as fast and will last longer? I'm a retired engineer and I can assure you that there is much more that goes into the design of these things than the typical consumer is aware of. I would suggest that rather than bashing the Kenda tires here, that someone ask BRP for an explanation and see what they have to say. It seems there's enough concern from owners to justify some technical advice from the people who make these decisions and have responsibility for them. I think we all want to enjoy our Spyders as economically as possible, but more important is that we do it as safely as possible. When it comes time for me to replace tires, I hope to have some data to review and be able to make an educated decision. I'm curiously following these discussions and I value the opinions of the experienced people that comment here. That's where my thinking process is right now.

Rick

[bikerbillone]

Tenic, good comment. I heard/read that somewhere, I know it's dumb with no reference, that BRP went to the tire makers that were interested to build a tire to fit the specs of the Spyder, Kenda was interested and did contract with BRP to make the tire. But I'd also like to hear from BRP how all this went down, the story behind the story. They could very easily post it here on SpyderLovers, a simple job for BRP. If there's s liability problem that they cannot, then that's something else.

[h0gr1der]

Has anyone considered that BRP's engineers are no doubt very aware that the Kenda tires that they put on the Spyders are two ply and that the rubber is softer than a car tire? Maybe it was designed that way to accommodate the weight and unique suspension of the Spyder. I have no doubt that a stronger/ harder car tire would last longer, but is it as safe under all conditions, i.e. wet roads, etc... ? Is this akin to the philosophy that a 30 amp fuse is better than a 10 amp, because it won't blow as fast and will last longer? I'm a retired engineer and I can assure you that there is much more that goes into the design of these things than the typical consumer is aware of. I would suggest that rather than bashing the Kenda tires here, that someone ask BRP for an explanation and see what they have to say. It seems there's enough concern from owners to justify some technical advice from the people who make these decisions and have responsibility for them. I think we all want to enjoy our Spyders as economically as possible, but more important is that we do it as safely as possible. When it comes time for me to replace tires, I hope to have some data to review and be able to make an educated decision. I'm curiously following these discussions and I value the opinions of the experienced people that comment here. That's where my thinking process is right now.

Rick

Reference the Toyota "Unintended Acceleration" phenomenon. I lost track, but I believe they still deny any issue, even though there are reported cases. Big corporations will not change once on a coarse of action, until the bottom line gets affected. I suspect you will get no other answer than that it is what has to be used.

There are lots of Kenda tires rolling with perfectly happy customers (especially for those who rely on dealers to do the swap, or for some reason can't get it done), but there are also quite a few who are unsatisfied with the performance of said tires. So we become test pilots, each and every one who does this installation. To garner a true sense of car tires vs Kenda, do a thorough search for people who have swapped, and note their response. I can't recollect any who have said "Car tires are bad, I'm swapping back to Kendas", regardless of the brand of time mounted.

BRP is stuck in the big corporate world. It simply amazes me that they don't make the following things standard on my RTL. 1. Improved sway bar (Baja Ron), 2. Improved headlights (LED's with correct housings to broadcast light). 3. Lower belt tension. The list goes on and on. Test pilots, each and every one who farkles for improved performance. Your owners manual strongly suggest none of these modifications should be done. You get the idea.

[bikerbillone]

Yes, think I get the idea. Sadly, it's necessary to add accessories to make the machine more than a 'good' machine, but then, it may give some the satisfaction of 'building it to fit'. My thing is doing all those 'add ons' gets added to the purchase price. However, I would suppose not much difference than a Harley, Honda, or whatever in that regard. But really, does it cost that much more to build it right? Engineers are not dumb, they can build it better, many after market add ons have proven that.

[h0gr1der]

Yes, think I get the idea. Sadly, it's necessary to add accessories to make the machine more than a 'good' machine, but then, it may give some the satisfaction of 'building it to fit'. My thing is doing all those 'add ons' gets added to the purchase price. However, I would suppose not much difference than a Harley, Honda, or whatever in that regard. But really, does it cost that much more to build it right? Engineers are not dumb, they can build it better, many after market add ons have proven that.

One thing and one thing alone. It comes down to the bottom line. I'll just about bet Kendas, being the cheapest tire (or almost the cheapest), beat out everyone on a contract basis (my opinion only). Unless a disproportionate amount of issues such as fatalities or crashes arise, resulting in investigations and loss of revenue, I bet nothing changes. Sad, because companies that adopt the stance of listening to the customer (within reason), and making the upgrades that the customers really want as a whole, seem to have a habit of being wildly successful.

[lebon]

Well I am going to add to the list of non-Kenda fans. Here is why. 2013 ST LTD bought with 1900km. Rear tire replaced this Spring @ 17000km. I was planning a long trip in July and the tire was at the wear bars. I did not want to replace the tire with the OEM but my local authoried Syder dealer will not put on any other tire. When I went to a regular bike shop, they seemed hesitant even working on the Spyder, so in the end I put on a new Kenda for $450can. I went on the trip. 6000km total. Tire pressure 27#. Conservative driver. Upon return from the trip, I am amazed at the wear. It is already getting close to the wear bars. How can I be a fan of that? Especially at that price point? So, it appears it will not be much longer before I have to get another rear tire. Funny the dealer told me that most people go through 3 rears before having to replace the fronts. So I guess I would be looking for any recommendations for non OEM tires for the bike, which can be easily sourced in Canadian. Also, how difficult is it to remove the rear wheel from the bike, should I decide to go this route and have a local tire shop remove and replace the tire from the rim.

[PinkRosePetal]

It's best not to base decisions on ignorance. Almost all passenger car tyres are 2 ply rated and the sidewalls only have one ply in their construction. 4x4 vehicles and large cars may use 4 ply rated tyres but even they have only 2 plies in the tyre wall.

I also use ultra high load capacity tyres where the load on a single tyre can be up to 950kgs (That's close to a ton on one tyre!) and they can be run with 85lbs of inflation pressure but their construction only has 2 sidewall plies.

Here's two pics of tyres, one is a Kenda, the other is a popular car tyre. Both are the same dimension tyres. Both are 2 ply rated and both use the same construction with regard to plies.

I am one who changes out their new front Kenda tyres for an alternative because I don't wish to drive on a tyre with the Kenda characteristics but the ignorant ravings and unfounded criticism of the Kenda tyres is silly and demeans the Spyder Lovers forums imho.

[h0gr1der]

It's best not to base decisions on ignorance. Almost all passenger car tyres are 2 ply rated and the sidewalls only have one ply in their construction. 4x4 vehicles and large cars may use 4 ply rated tyres but even they have only 2 plies in the tyre wall.

Ms. PinkRosePetal,

This may be a cultural difference in the USA. The older generation (me included) was used to the number of plies referencing the load capacity, and in the earlier days it did. May have come before radials even, I don't know. 8 ply truck tires that we now refer to as load range E did have 8 plies. Modern technology in the form of improved casings has lightened the casings while keeping the load ratings. Some of us old guys still reference 4 ply as car tires, 8 or 10 ply as heavy truck tires. The Vredesteins I use are 3 ply tread, 1 ply sidewall. I believe they are a stronger casing than the Kendas.

[bikerbillone]

HogRider, I think you are right, I certainly would not take the other side of that debate. Taking it a step further, many items that fit the contract for sourced out parts are not quality, we can all guess why, builders bottom financial line per production unit. That is not sound marketing from my point of view, make a quality production item that will last and it will sell, the company, the customer will be happy. Maybe corporate does not care about that, that's way above my pay grade to understand. Not singling out BRP or Spyder, because there are many brands that fit the mold of. Final thought, just theoretically, BRP knows what items fail and which doesn't, improve the ones that fail and fix the problem before it rolls off the assembly line, it that so complicated? OK, all done, I've said way too much already because it is what it is.

[AeroPilot]

I choose to run car tires after getting the useful life out of the OEM Kendas mostly for the longer wear life available from the harder compounds mostly found in car tires. Of the 16 rear tires used over the 220,000 plus miles, 7 have been Kendas and except for the 2014 model have given good service for 10,000 miles plus. (I had 1 front tire that had balance issues). I ran Kenda Kruz tires on my Honda Shadow as it was cost effective at the time. I do feel that Kenda/BRP did respond to the feedback from the 14 soft compound and is improving their quality since but I prefer the 5 Kumhos and 3 Generals (and a Michelin) that I have since used. Are there better tires out there--sure for each persons needs, but I'll wear them out first and keep an eye on the air pressure and wear and ride.

I just changed out some Kenda fronts that got over 30,000 miles on my 15 RT, but prefer the Kumho Solus' and the Federal Formoza AZ01s on the wifes F3. Will I pick a different tire for the Subaru than the OEM Geolanders that came on it? Haven't decided yet, but they seem to be wearing a little quickly....Just my experience YMMVIMG_0144[1].jpg

PS- the grasshopper seems to smooth out the balance on that Kumho

[PinkRosePetal]

Ms. PinkRosePetal,

...The older generation (me included).... Some of us old guys still reference 4 ply as car tires, 8 or 10 ply as heavy truck tires.

Well wotcha waiting for, getcha self up to speed - pronto!

The Vredesteins I use are 3 ply tread, 1 ply sidewall. I believe they are a stronger casing than the Kendas.

That is likely because they can tolerate a substantially higher maximum inflation pressure to satisfy their increased load rating. However, iirc the rear Kenda tyre is rated around the 400kg mark at 30psi and this is approximately the whole weight of the bike so, whilst a little marginal, should be good for its job.

I have no complaint about the handling or road holding of the rear Kenda but wearing out the tread centre to the limit in 8k miles but having plenty of side tread left is a failure in its design. If I was cynical I might think it was deliberate to increase tyre sales and BRP profits. Nah, couldn't possibly be that...

[UtahPete]

Well I am going to add to the list of non-Kenda fans. Here is why. 2013 ST LTD bought with 1900km. Rear tire replaced this Spring @ 17000km. I was planning a long trip in July and the tire was at the wear bars. I did not want to replace the tire with the OEM but my local authoried Syder dealer will not put on any other tire. When I went to a regular bike shop, they seemed hesitant even working on the Spyder, so in the end I put on a new Kenda for $450can. I went on the trip. 6000km total. Tire pressure 27#. Conservative driver. Upon return from the trip, I am amazed at the wear. It is already getting close to the wear bars. How can I be a fan of that? Especially at that price point? So, it appears it will not be much longer before I have to get another rear tire. Funny the dealer told me that most people go through 3 rears before having to replace the fronts. So I guess I would be looking for any recommendations for non OEM tires for the bike, which can be easily sourced in Canadian. Also, how difficult is it to remove the rear wheel from the bike, should I decide to go this route and have a local tire shop remove and replace the tire from the rim.

The one characteristic of the Kenda rear tire that everyone seems to agree on is its relatively fast wear / short life.

[h0gr1der]

Well wotcha waiting for, getcha self up to speed - pronto!

That is likely because they can tolerate a substantially higher maximum inflation pressure to satisfy their increased load rating. However, iirc the rear Kenda tyre is rated around the 400kg mark at 30psi and this is approximately the whole weight of the bike so, whilst a little marginal, should be good for its job.

I have no complaint about the handling or road holding of the rear Kenda but wearing out the tread centre to the limit in 8k miles but having plenty of side tread left is a failure in its design. If I was cynical I might think it was deliberate to increase tyre sales and BRP profits. Nah, couldn't possibly be that...

I didn't have any problem with the Rear Kenda except China. I've seen too much bad with their quality control, enough that I paint with that broad brush. Case in point, I needed a portable band saw for a metal project, and every brand saw in town was made in China. I bought the cheap one from Harbor Freight and the speed control died within 30 seconds of startup. They didn't even question the return for exchange as it is so common. The second one I Ty-wrapped the trigger on low speed and ran it for an hour and a half before using it. So, to the best of my ability, the China stuff has to go.

[Freddy]

I wonder where the Kumho Solus is made?

[DGoebel]

I wonder where the Kumho Solus is made?

Kumho has plants in South Korea, China, Georgia (USA), and Vietnam per the Wikipedia article.

[UtahPete]

I didn't have any problem with the Rear Kenda except China. I've seen too much bad with their quality control, enough that I paint with that broad brush. Case in point, I needed a portable band saw for a metal project, and every brand saw in town was made in China. I bought the cheap one from Harbor Freight and the speed control died within 30 seconds of startup. They didn't even question the return for exchange as it is so common. The second one I Ty-wrapped the trigger on low speed and ran it for an hour and a half before using it. So, to the best of my ability, the China stuff has to go.

That may be your perception but it's not reality. The Chinese are extremely capable scientists, engineers and manufacturers. They were inventing gunpowder and building advanced infrastructure back when Europeans were using stone clubs for mating rituals.

[h0gr1der]

That may be your perception but it's not reality. The Chinese are extremely capable scientists, engineers and manufacturers. They were inventing gunpowder and building advanced infrastructure back when Europeans were using stone clubs for mating rituals.

Have no misunderstanding of what I'm saying here, I have no problem with Chinese people. Chinese products that aren't shepherded by a major brand name, on the other hand is of what I speak. Take my band saw experience for example. I bet a dollar against a donut hole that the Dewalt brand that was made in China wouldn't have failed, yet the Harbor Freight Bauer brand did fail immediately. Companies driven by the bottom line above all else are why I think this way, because I've had my nose rubbed in it all my adult life. It was so bad that the industry I worked in banned all Chinese lifting products (slings, shackles, chains, etc.) permanently. Counterfeiting of quality products is another reason. No, it's not the Chinese, just the stuff they sell us.

[johnsimion]

As a retired attorney, I agree 100% with our retired engineer, Tenic. BRP builds to a price like all profit-driven corporations, but a lot goes into their decisions and one legal consideration is, "Is this tire dangerous? Are we going to get sued?" Unless and until somebody can show me one single lawsuit involving Kenda tire failure on a Spyder, they are quite obviously "adequately safe." Are there better? Sure. You can put a Pirelli P-Zero on a Toyota Prius and it will handle better, but that doesnt mean the OEM tires are bad.

Regarding H0grider's post:

"Reference the Toyota "Unintended Acceleration" phenomenon. I lost track, but I believe they still deny any issue, even though there are reported cases." Because no scause for the "problem"was ever identified other than people pushing the accelerator rather than the brake.

"There are lots of Kenda tires rolling with perfectly happy customers (especially for those who rely on dealers to do the swap, or for some reason can't get it done), but there are also quite a few who are unsatisfied with the performance of said tires. So we become test pilots, each and every one who does this installation." If there are customers who are perfectly happy, then there is no problem with the tire. Maybe you are the kind of person who needs Pirelli
P-Zeros on your Corolla. Good for you. That does not make me a "test pilot" because I'm happy with what I've got.

"BRP is stuck in the big corporate world. It simply amazes me that they don't make the following things standard on my RTL. 1. Improved sway bar (Baja Ron), 2. Improved headlights (LED's with correct housings to broadcast light). 3. Lower belt tension. The list goes on and on. Test pilots, each and every one who farkles for improved performance. Your owners manual strongly suggest none of these modifications should be done." These things that may make the Spyder better for the way you use it. They are improvements, not necessities. My Spyder is safe and does what I ask of it. I don't have these improvements, I don't need them, I don't want them and I am not a "test pilot." You want them, please do install them and enjoy your ride. But enough of the "test pilot" BS.

[UtahPete]

Have no misunderstanding of what I'm saying here, I have no problem with Chinese people. Chinese products that aren't shepherded by a major brand name, on the other hand is of what I speak. Take my band saw experience for example. I bet a dollar against a donut hole that the Dewalt brand that was made in China wouldn't have failed, yet the Harbor Freight Bauer brand did fail immediately. Companies driven by the bottom line above all else are why I think this way, because I've had my nose rubbed in it all my adult life. It was so bad that the industry I worked in banned all Chinese lifting products (slings, shackles, chains, etc.) permanently. Counterfeiting of quality products is another reason. No, it's not the Chinese, just the stuff they sell us.

No, it's what we are willing to pay for. The Chinese don't 'sell us' anything. Companies sell us stuff made wherever they can get the quality they want at their target price point. 50 years ago, it was Japan. Now it's all over Asia, including China, Taiwan, South Korea, Malaysia, etc. My Duramax diesel was made in Thailand, they tell me, but I don't care where GM chose to build it.

[Fat Baxter]

The one characteristic of the Kenda rear tire that everyone seems to agree on is its relatively fast wear / short life.

When I chatted with my dealership's manager about their Spyder tire policy (they will only fit Kendas, claiming liability concerns from their lawyers), he voiced his opinion that the Kenda rear tire, price-wise ($180) and mileage-wise (10-12,000 miles), is not out of line with other motorcycle tires.

With that kind of attitude (i.e., a guaranteed continuing cash flow), it's no wonder there's incentive to only mount Kendas. What might turn this around is an unambiguous statement from BRP that any J-coded tire can be mounted and dealers won't be held liable. And by unambiguous, I mean "do whatever it takes to keep the customer satisfied."

Kenda tires seem to be the single biggest gripe about Spyders, and honestly, I don't understand why BRP doesn't address this head-on.