Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 91
  1. #51
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    537
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    I can't locate those FB details PMK. Can you please post a pic of how/what you tied the head of the bolt to. Thank you.


    EDIT: I now understand The pulley face on your machine has holes to loop the wire thru. The early ones did not.

    There now, my inquiring mind is more understanding. And the best substitute for brains is .......silence.

    When fretting has take place, tension on the bolt will be reduced, enabling the rate of wear to increase. But the bolt shouldn't fall out even without the wire tie due to the factory applied thread locker on it, unless it's been a reused bolt. However, I've seen a pic of where the bolt has broken off due to the pulley being so loose.
    The best substitute for brains is....................what?

  2. #52
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    Rio Grande Valley
    Posts
    29
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    The loctite 51048 is the product #LB 8012. If the honda moly is still available it should be good.

  3. #53
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    2,395
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Enjoy. Pretty much a visual storyboard from the previous red witness marks, the oem applied grease, to the final safety wiring.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #54
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    2,395
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by toolie View Post
    The loctite 51048 is the product #LB 8012. If the honda moly is still available it should be good.
    Pretty certain when I was researching various products, Honda M77 is Molykote M77. Not sure it is the best for the application, but certainly better than many choices.

  5. #55
    Active Member Woodaddict's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Salisbury,NC
    Posts
    214
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by toolie View Post
    If the honda moly is still available it should be good.

    I use Honda Moly M77 paste. Its still available.
    2015 Spyder RT Ltd- bUrp - only add the "U", 2010 Honda NT700V-red,2010 Honda NT700V-silver retired @201,111 miles, 1997 Honda PC800, 1996 Honda PC800, Honda CT500, Honda Shadow 500, 1978 Suzuki GS550, 1973 Suzuki TC125, other assorted smaller bikes, Suzuki TM400

  6. #56
    Active Member 007james's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Roanoke, Virginia
    Posts
    181
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Thanks for the great photos, PMK! I am wondering if there is a Bearing inside the Casing we donít see that could also be damaged that does not get inspected or changed when the casings are not split and the shaft not changed. Also, I am wondering just how damaged the splines on the stainless steel shaft can get, and still be filed to accept a new Sprocket and
    installed using your method? ( your opinion? ). I like your idea of Safety wiring the Bolt. In my young days as a 17 year old USAF Airman, I was trained to be an Aircraft Mechanic, on Reciprocating Engine Aircraft. I trained 10 months as a Mechanic at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, Texas in 1959. EVERY single Bolt and Nut on every Aircraft engine had to be Safety wired. We Mechanics all had our rolls of S.S. Safety Wire. I ended up at Westover AFB in Mass. working on KC-97 Refueling Aircraft, and got to despise working on those huge engines, Safety wiring literally thousands of bolts and nuts, and especially hated changing the hot oils in those huge engines! Thatís why I donít do my own Spyder mechanics. Thatís why COMPETENT Dealer Techs are employed,.....when we can find any. Have you ever contacted BRP to offer your Methodology of how to properly install Sprockets? Also, I am wondering how many hours of Labor, start to finish, including Diagnosis, is required using your Technique? Thanks again for the impressive Tutoral. I will use this method after my Warrantee expires and If I ever need to keep replacing my Failed Sprocket every 10-20 thousand miles. I was thinking of just Tack Welding the darn Sprocket to the Drive Shaft so it could not come off, but Safety Wiring the Bolt is a much more reasonable way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Enjoy. Pretty much a visual storyboard from the previous red witness marks, the oem applied grease, to the final safety wiring.

  7. #57
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    los angeles, ca
    Posts
    1,914
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Do you put moly paste on shaft of bolt, teeth of spline and sprocket?
    Thank you.

    Also, can I use moly paste on rear axle? I’m about do rear tire.
    6 states down 42 states to go

  8. #58
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    2,395
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 007james View Post
    Thanks for the great photos, PMK! I am wondering if there is a Bearing inside the Casing we don’t see that could also be damaged that does not get inspected or changed when the casings are not split and the shaft not changed. Also, I am wondering just how damaged the splines on the stainless steel shaft can get, and still be filed to accept a new Sprocket and
    installed using your method? ( your opinion? ). I like your idea of Safety wiring the Bolt. In my young days as a 17 year old USAF Airman, I was trained to be an Aircraft Mechanic, on Reciprocating Engine Aircraft. I trained 10 months as a Mechanic at Sheppard AFB in Wichita Falls, Texas in 1959. EVERY single Bolt and Nut on every Aircraft engine had to be Safety wired. We Mechanics all had our rolls of S.S. Safety Wire. I ended up at Westover AFB in Mass. working on KC-97 Refueling Aircraft, and got to despise working on those huge engines, Safety wiring literally thousands of bolts and nuts, and especially hated changing the hot oils in those huge engines! That’s why I don’t do my own Spyder mechanics. That’s why COMPETENT Dealer Techs are employed,.....when we can find any. Have you ever contacted BRP to offer your Methodology of how to properly install Sprockets? Also, I am wondering how many hours of Labor, start to finish, including Diagnosis, is required using your Technique? Thanks again for the impressive Tutoral. I will use this method after my Warrantee expires and If I ever need to keep replacing my Failed Sprocket every 10-20 thousand miles. I was thinking of just Tack Welding the darn Sprocket to the Drive Shaft so it could not come off, but Safety Wiring the Bolt is a much more reasonable way to go.
    The gearbox shaft is heat treated steel, not stainless steel. No plans to work with French Canadians even if they called, would still turn them down as in my experience often they are impossible to deal with on issues like this.

    As for the gearbox output shaft bearing, yes it does exist, but requires engine removal and splitting the cases to gain access for inspecting or replacement.

    In kindness, I offer not to over think this. The entire fitment of the pulley is very simple. Regarding your idea of waiting until warranty expires, entirely your choice, however, if you experience a worn pulley, at a later time, possibly outside of warranty, you could suffer serious expense of needing a gearbox output shaft. Myself, I would accomplish this even within the warranty period and at certain intervals to prevent failures. You asked how long it took. Start to finish, including getting out and picking up the tools, bodypanel removal and reinstallation was no more than 2 hours and this included replacing the air filter.

    As for your suffering with those aircraft, looking back, consider the knowledge and experienced you gained. Myself too, I have loc wired enough fasteners to understand exactly what you are talking about.

  9. #59
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    2,395
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aka1004 View Post
    Do you put moly paste on shaft of bolt, teeth of spline and sprocket?
    Thank you.

    Also, can I use moly paste on rear axle? I’m about do rear tire.

    I applied lubricant to the inner faying surface of the pulley, gearbox splines, pulley splines, then slid the pulley onto the shaft, followed by applying lubricant to the outer faying surface of the pulley and washer face. No lubricant was applied to the threads or bolt shank, I applied Mastinox corrosion prevention compound to the bolt shank.

    You could use moly lube on the rear axle. However you will make a huge mess doing so. Also consider, the axle torque spec is for clean dry threads. If moly is applied or even grease is applied, and contaminates the threads, torquing to spec will substantially overtorque the axle, crushing the swingarm, axle adjusters, and possibly bearing spacers.

  10. #60
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    537
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    PMK thanks for all that good info.

    I view of this, it would seem prudent though for the benefit of all, for you to amend your advice in post 35 to lubricate the bolt, in light of the conflicting procedure you have described above.
    The best substitute for brains is....................what?

  11. #61
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    los angeles, ca
    Posts
    1,914
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Is moly paste safe to use on rubber O-Ring like one on rear wheel hub?
    6 states down 42 states to go

  12. #62
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    2,395
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
    PMK thanks for all that good info.

    I view of this, it would seem prudent though for the benefit of all, for you to amend your advice in post 35 to lubricate the bolt, in light of the conflicting procedure you have described above.
    Not the best description by my words, but avoid reading too much into it. Lubricate, as in apply lubricant to the splines and faying surfaces, not lubricate the bolt.

  13. #63
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    2,395
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aka1004 View Post
    Is moly paste safe to use on rubber O-Ring like one on rear wheel hub?

    Probably, but why? Moly is messy to work with. Quality grease is a better choice.

  14. #64
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Tacoma WA.
    Posts
    70
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    That powder comes from iron particles coming off the drive sprocket and spline, being exposed to dampness and then rusting. Moisture can't get to the splines directly. The drive sprocket is basically coming apart, and when you start seeing the red powder, time to change the sprocket-and lube the splines while you're at it.

  15. #65
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Tacoma WA.
    Posts
    70
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dondje View Post
    The anti seize that I referenced is an extreme high pressure lubricant designed for this type of application and more. It has an added benefit of anti seize properties and is extremely water proof. That is why the military uses it for all kinds of spline applications at sea and other extreme conditions. As I stated earlier, I believe that the factory lubricant breaks down. This creates an increased tolerance between the pulley and the shaft for wear (you call fretting), along with allowing water intrusion. Moisture's roll is when it does get in (yes it drys out, becoming a cycle), it helps breakdown of the lube even faster, and helps the acceleration of the color change of the iron dust.

    My thought for using the product I introduced is that not only does it have some of the best lubricating properties I know of that are needed for this application. Read its spec sheet. Just as important, and what makes it stand out in this case, is it also has staying properties that I don't believe the factory or most any other lube has.

    I agree with you that this a maintenance issue. I also believe from the millage that people are having problems at, that the stock lube should be replaced asap after purchase. What people use is up to them. I know what
    I am going to use. From that point, only time will tell.

    Regards,

    Don
    Also, extreme belt tension can cause/hasten wear on the drive sprocket and counter shaft splines. If it's whining back there, loosen the tension until it's just tight enough to be quiet and have no slop.

  16. #66
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    537
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryTheSpyderRyder View Post
    . The drive sprocket is basically coming apart, and when you start seeing the red powder, time to change the sprocket-and lube the splines while you're at it.
    The best substitute for brains is....................what?

  17. #67
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    537
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryTheSpyderRyder View Post
    Also, extreme belt tension can cause/hasten wear on the drive sprocket and counter shaft splines. If it's whining back there, loosen the tension until it's just tight enough to be quiet and have no slop.
    That's guess work. Correct tension is better but EXTREME tension certainly ain't.
    The best substitute for brains is....................what?

  18. #68
    Active Member 007james's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Roanoke, Virginia
    Posts
    181
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    If moisture getting in to the steel splines of the steel Drive Shaft and Sprocket splines is causing enough problems to destroy the splines,....just imagine what SALT added to the roads in the Winter does , mixed in with the water from the road!! I ride all Winter, here in Virginia, every day the temp. is 40 Degrees or above, and not raining. There is Salt on the roads all Winter, so has obviously spiced the Splines of my Sprocket and Drive Shaft. Hard Chrome Plating the Splines of both the Shaft and Sprocket would solve the problem, or changing to Stainless steel Sprocket and Shaft would also solve such a burdensome problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by TerryTheSpyderRyder View Post
    That powder comes from iron particles coming off the drive sprocket and spline, being exposed to dampness and then rusting. Moisture can't get to the splines directly. The drive sprocket is basically coming apart, and when you start seeing the red powder, time to change the sprocket-and lube the splines while you're at it.

  19. #69
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    537
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Please read this thread from the start for a informed discussion of the subject.
    The best substitute for brains is....................what?

  20. #70
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    2,395
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 007james View Post
    If moisture getting in to the steel splines of the steel Drive Shaft and Sprocket splines is causing enough problems to destroy the splines,....just imagine what SALT added to the roads in the Winter does , mixed in with the water from the road!! I ride all Winter, here in Virginia, every day the temp. is 40 Degrees or above, and not raining. There is Salt on the roads all Winter, so has obviously spiced the Splines of my Sprocket and Drive Shaft. Hard Chrome Plating the Splines of both the Shaft and Sprocket would solve the problem, or changing to Stainless steel Sprocket and Shaft would also solve such a burdensome problem.
    Sadly, if you were to chrome plate splines, due to material buildup from plating, it would be impossible to produce a proper fit. Add to the, I believe chrome is like other plating processes, and has a difficult time depositing plating material into holes or other sharp edged shapes.

    Moisture is certainly not the issue. Fretting is a non moisture corrosion event. The two methods to prevent corrosion, either lubricate the joint, or prevent movement in the joint.

    If you truly want a lifelong front pulley setup, take the bolts washer and convert it from round to D shaped. Install the bolt and modified washer and torque to specs. Either yourself or get a helper and in the area of the cutaway portion of the was, weld the pulley to the gearbox shaft. Once cooled, remove the bolt and washer, and fully weld the pulley to the gearbox shaft. Grind it flat and smooth, assuming you got ample weld penetration, and install a new bolt with built in washer.

    Doing this will stop relative movement and end the spline wear problem. Spyder are not prone to gearbox failures, so pulley removal can be dealt with at a much later time, if ever.

    Myself though, I will continue on the plan I started with to remove, inspect and relubricate at certain intervals.

    Actually, after giving the welded on pulley idea some thought, I believe for many of the complainers, this would be a very viable method of curing the issue.

  21. #71
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    West Oz
    Posts
    537
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    PMK, I like your thinking - that would certainly be the procedure to adopt if/when the shaft is damaged after repeat failures (out of warranty) as some are seeing. In fact, I recall 1 or 2 posts from years back on this very point, to obviate the need for shaft replacement.
    The best substitute for brains is....................what?

  22. #72
    Active Member 007james's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Roanoke, Virginia
    Posts
    181
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    Once my Warrantee runs out, if I still have it, and decide to keep it, I will definitely research welding the Pulley to the Drive Shaft. But really, wouldnít Stainless Steel Pulley and Shaft eliminate this reoccurring problem? As for Hard Chrome Plating, you are correct. Even distribution of the plated chrome in the low current density areas of the splines would not be conducive to permanently eradicating the problem. But the splines ď couldĒ very well be plated with Electroless Nickel, which is an immersion, Autocatalytic Process, of deposition of Nickel, which is very hard, and corrosion resistant to moisture and salt. Of course, once the Drive Shaft was too damaged , it would be too late, but the new Sprocket Splines could be plated. The leading edges of Helicopter Blades are plated with Electroless nickel , where ever they are used in areas where sand deteriorates the blades.
    007james



    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Sadly, if you were to chrome plate splines, due to material buildup from plating, it would be impossible to produce a proper fit. Add to the, I believe chrome is like other plating processes, and has a difficult time depositing plating material into holes or other sharp edged shapes.

    Moisture is certainly not the issue. Fretting is a non moisture corrosion event. The two methods to prevent corrosion, either lubricate the joint, or prevent movement in the joint.

    If you truly want a lifelong front pulley setup, take the bolts washer and convert it from round to D shaped. Install the bolt and modified washer and torque to specs. Either yourself or get a helper and in the area of the cutaway portion of the was, weld the pulley to the gearbox shaft. Once cooled, remove the bolt and washer, and fully weld the pulley to the gearbox shaft. Grind it flat and smooth, assuming you got ample weld penetration, and install a new bolt with built in washer.

    Doing this will stop relative movement and end the spline wear problem. Spyder are not prone to gearbox failures, so pulley removal can be dealt with at a much later time, if ever.

    Myself though, I will continue on the plan I started with to remove, inspect and relubricate at certain intervals.

    Actually, after giving the welded on pulley idea some thought, I believe for many of the complainers, this would be a very viable method of curing the issue.

  23. #73
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    2,395
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 007james View Post
    Once my Warrantee runs out, if I still have it, and decide to keep it, I will definitely research welding the Pulley to the Drive Shaft. But really, wouldn’t Stainless Steel Pulley and Shaft eliminate this reoccurring problem? As for Hard Chrome Plating, you are correct. Even distribution of the plated chrome in the low current density areas of the splines would not be conducive to permanently eradicating the problem. But the splines “ could” very well be plated with Electroless Nickel, which is an immersion, Autocatalytic Process, of deposition of Nickel, which is very hard, and corrosion resistant to moisture and salt. Of course, once the Drive Shaft was too damaged , it would be too late, but the new Sprocket Splines could be plated. The leading edges of Helicopter Blades are plated with Electroless nickel , where ever they are used in areas where sand deteriorates the blades.
    007james
    Which helicopters are you referring too.

    Stainless is often prone to galling in some types. As for nickel, not so sure that will cover any better than chrome. Plus, to be truly effective, often it is best to apply copper substate to the steel before the nickel. I am currently working on my Rickman motorcycle, which has a nickel plated frame, they certainly plated it with some thin areas.

    Leading back to helicopters, if you have hands on experience with them, then you should realize the number of splined couplings involved. If you check, pretty sure none are run without lubricant...

  24. #74
    Active Member 007james's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Roanoke, Virginia
    Posts
    181
    Spyder Garage
    1

    Default

    PKG,.....I was once the Plant Supervisor for 5 years of a Plating shop called ď EMFĒ, i.e. Electronics Metal Finishing. We Nickel Plated , as well as Nickel Electroformed the leading edges of Sikorsky Helicopter Blades, when I was there. Apache Helicopters also use Nickel on their Blades. We also deposited Nickel on Aluminum Rotors, as well as sophisticated Wave Guides. My Career was Plating, Metal Finishing, and Environmental, so there hasnít been many Metal Surfaces or exotic Plating I have not done, during my Career. I once found a Rat floating in our Nitric Acid Strip tank, and plated it with Gold, and gave it to my Boss for his Desk. I sprayed the Rat with Silver impregnated paint, after positioning the Rat sitting on its back legs ready to leap. After the paint dried, it made the Ratís surface conductive, enough to accept a Copper Plate, followed by Copper Electroform, followed by Nickel Electroform, followed by Bright Nickel Plate, Gold Strike , then bright gold plated! The Gold Rat was the prized discussion piece on my Bossís desk for years,....until it started leaking rotting liquid on his desk! I must have missed a Void in the Ratís body, and it was not Hermetically sealed with the plated deposits.
    https://prabook.com/web/james.sutherland/661603

    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Which helicopters are you referring too.

    Stainless is often prone to galling in some types. As for nickel, not so sure that will cover any better than chrome. Plus, to be truly effective, often it is best to apply copper substate to the steel before the nickel. I am currently working on my Rickman motorcycle, which has a nickel plated frame, they certainly plated it with some thin areas.

    Leading back to helicopters, if you have hands on experience with them, then you should realize the number of splined couplings involved. If you check, pretty sure none are run without lubricant...

  25. #75
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    SoFlo
    Posts
    2,395
    Spyder Garage
    0

    Default

    FWIW, on the Sikorskys, the nickel is a cap over the titanium leading edge that is adhesive bonded over the blades composite structure. Removing the nickel cap is a challenge to remove.

    At one previous job, besides operating and overseeing the entire NDT lab, I was also tasked with maintaining the baths for Type 1 anodize, cadmium plating, plus the strip tanks and haz mat. Never enjoyed any of that. Next job, besides structure work, I was doing brush plating, plus maintaining that.

    While not at your level in regards to plating, I have a little bit of experience with it.

    So, that leads me to ask, I need a method to strip nickel from steel without destruction to the bronze welding that joins the tubes of my 1971 Rickman Metisse frame. Seems no plating shops that are local have a tank adequate to handle the frames dimensions.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •