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  1. #26
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    PMK, I'm glad you've been able to clarify exactly what is happening to cause these failures - thank you.

    However, I disagree with you on the point: Consider, if the splines were removed, would the bolt and washer alone be adequate to propel the Spyder forward. Obviously, no. The splines are responsible for 99.999999% of making the Spyder drive go to the wheel.

    In my experience, the splines are not responsible for 'making the Spyder drive go to the wheels.' It is the clamping force of the bolt which does this by locking the component solidly together. This was in fact acknowledged in the TSB which BRP released back in 2009 when the problem first arose. The pulley was not designed to be a wear item but rather a sacrificial item IF adequate clamping force was ever lost, or never initially applied as we now see again.

    FWIW, I bought my GS in Dec 2009 soon after this issue first arose and the release of that TSB. I purchased a new OEM bolt, did some minor research on what torque a bolt of that spec could take and found it to be about 10-15% higher (from memory) than what BRP recommended in the TSB, so I applied that higher torque. To this day and 96,000km later, the pulley on my trike shows no sign of red dust.

    It seems to me that BRP have a short corporate memory in this regard.

    I've suggested that folks apply Loctite 660 and 7471 primer to the splines if they find fretting in the early stage which, when effectively clamped with the bolt, may/should/could eliminate fretting.


    PS I have seen a number of other automotive and industrial applications which rely on clamping force to transmit torque to splined components and I've seen a number where one part or the other is sacrificial.
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  2. #27
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
    PMK, I'm glad you've been able to clarify exactly what is happening to cause these failures - thank you.

    However, I disagree with you on the point: Consider, if the splines were removed, would the bolt and washer alone be adequate to propel the Spyder forward. Obviously, no. The splines are responsible for 99.999999% of making the Spyder drive go to the wheel.

    In my experience, the splines are not responsible for 'making the Spyder drive go to the wheels.' It is the clamping force of the bolt which does this by locking the component solidly together. This was in fact acknowledged in the TSB which BRP released back in 2009 when the problem first arose. The pulley was not designed to be a wear item but rather a sacrificial item IF adequate clamping force was ever lost, or never initially applied as we now see again.

    FWIW, I bought my GS in Dec 2009 soon after this issue first arose and the release of that TSB. I purchased a new OEM bolt, did some minor research on what torque a bolt of that spec could take and found it to be about 10-15% higher (from memory) than what BRP recommended in the TSB, so I applied that higher torque. To this day and 96,000km later, the pulley on my trike shows no sign of red dust.

    It seems to me that BRP have a short corporate memory in this regard.

    I've suggested that folks apply Loctite 660 and 7471 primer to the splines if they find fretting in the early stage which, when effectively clamped with the bolt, may/should/could eliminate fretting.


    PS I have seen a number of other automotive and industrial applications which rely on clamping force to transmit torque to splined components and I've seen a number where one part or the other is sacrificial.
    If you understand my explanation of how the actual movement of the pulley on the shaft is occurring, you could then realize that by tightening the bolt further, you eliminated the movement. No movement, no fretting corrosion.

    Again, the splines are responsible for making the coupling work and moving the Spyder. Beyond the mechanical aspect, if a manufacturer could utilize a straight smooth round shaft, with a pulley that had a straight smooth bore, that is a substantial cost saving to manufacture.

    They utilize splines to carry the load. Even machines with a fraction of the horsepower a Spyder puts out utilize splines, or a key. A simple machine, the bicycle must use either square tapers, cotter wedge pins, or splines to keep the left and right pedals aligned. The bicycle even employs splines or drive lugs to couple the rear sprockets or cassette to the hub.

    The bolt simply retains the pulley, the splines accomplish the torque load through the shaft. Tightening the bolt further simply eliminated the relative movement of the pulley on the shaft at the loads imposed upon it.

    The means to eliminate fretting, stop the relative movement, or lubricate the joint.

  3. #28
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    If you understand my explanation of how the actual movement of the pulley on the shaft is occurring, you could then realize that by tightening the bolt further, you eliminated the movement. No movement, no fretting corrosion.

    Again, the splines are responsible for making the coupling work and moving the Spyder. Beyond the mechanical aspect, if a manufacturer could utilize a straight smooth round shaft, with a pulley that had a straight smooth bore, that is a substantial cost saving to manufacture.

    They utilize splines to carry the load. Even machines with a fraction of the horsepower a Spyder puts out utilize splines, or a key. A simple machine, the bicycle must use either square tapers, cotter wedge pins, or splines to keep the left and right pedals aligned. The bicycle even employs splines or drive lugs to couple the rear sprockets or cassette to the hub.

    The bolt simply retains the pulley, the splines accomplish the torque load through the shaft. Tightening the bolt further simply eliminated the relative movement of the pulley on the shaft at the loads imposed upon it.

    The means to eliminate fretting, stop the relative movement, or lubricate the joint.

    Agreed - that's precisely what BRP engineers were wanting to achieve and did so successfully - until more recent years!

    We differ on this point in this application though : Again, the splines are responsible for making the coupling work and moving the Spyder.
    EXACTLY! This is why they are failing.


    Beyond the mechanical aspect, if a manufacturer could utilize a straight smooth round shaft, with a pulley that had a straight smooth bore, that is a substantial cost saving to manufacture.
    Many do and use a woodruff key just in case, however I don't expect to see it in a motorcycle application due to the sophisticated nature of transmissions.



    Whatever the cause, they sure ain't reliable and that's the problem for all concerned - especially the rider.
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  4. #29
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
    Agreed - that's precisely what BRP engineers were wanting to achieve and did so successfully - until more recent years!

    We differ on this point in this application though : Again, the splines are responsible for making the coupling work and moving the Spyder.
    EXACTLY! This is why they are failing.


    Beyond the mechanical aspect, if a manufacturer could utilize a straight smooth round shaft, with a pulley that had a straight smooth bore, that is a substantial cost saving to manufacture.
    Many do and use a woodruff key just in case, however I don't expect to see it in a motorcycle application due to the sophisticated nature of transmissions.



    Whatever the cause, they sure ain't reliable and that's the problem for all concerned - especially the rider.
    A Woodruff key or straight key is simply a single spline fit when utilized on a straight shaft. The key applies the driving force. In a tapered shaft setup, the taper, when fitted correctly applies the driving force with no need for a key, except alignment.

  5. #30
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    I agree fully with the last sentence PMK, but not the second in all applications. Our hands-on experience and knowledge is obviously different - perhaps in quite different industries as you alluded to earlier.

    When it's broken, it's broken- and that's the worry


    Ride safe.
    The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.

  6. #31
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    26 thousand miles my 2016 rts pulley failed

  7. #32
    Active Member 007james's Avatar
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    My 2016 RT Limited Sprocket failed at 21,500 miles, was “fixed”, and has again failed at 33,800 miles, worse than before. This time, I had virtually no warning before the grinding, squealing, and whining started happening. After reading all of the comments, plus having my experiences, I am wondering why the grinding only occurs on deceleration, and not during full throttle Acceleration? If the shaft splines are stripped or worn too thin to keep the sprocket secure, I vision slippage and grinding both ways. Also, what about damage to the Shaft Bearing? The extreme grinding sounds and feels like failed Bearings, grinding and chattering metal against metal. I successfully drove my Spyder to the Dealer yesterday, 50 miles away, at speeds up to 60 MPH, and all was smooth unless I was even slightly, decelerating on down hill grades, then I expected a seizure any time! My wife was behind me in our Explorer, so in case it did seize, she would protect me from getting rear ended by another Vehicle. It was a relief when I finally got to tne Dealer safely! So, do we Spyder Owners of 1330 Spyders just be expected to suck it up, and accept knowing our Sprocket/shaft/spline will fail every 10 to 20 thousand miles on our Vehicles with out a permanent Fix by BRB Engineers? What about those with out Warrantees? Are they all SOL? I never had the Sprocket problem with my 2012 RT Limited during the 55,300 miles I rode it. So, obviously, the higher Torque of the 1330 must be what has caused the problem to surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    From what I have read about this …. RT - RTs - RTL do not have the Red Dust issue ……. Mike

  8. #33
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    After following this and other threads and seeing others thoughts and experiences, I have been able to choose the right path for me.
    On my 17 f3 limited with 6100 miles I will pull the pulley clean the splines and put loctite moly paste #LB 8012 on the splines and loctite blue 242 on the bolt and torque it to 96 lbs.

    Thanks for all the comments

  9. #34
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    Buy a new bolt - it comes with thread locker already on it.
    The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.

  10. #35
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toolie View Post
    After following this and other threads and seeing others thoughts and experiences, I have been able to choose the right path for me.
    On my 17 f3 limited with 6100 miles I will pull the pulley clean the splines and put loctite moly paste #LB 8012 on the splines and loctite blue 242 on the bolt and torque it to 96 lbs.

    Thanks for all the comments
    Sounds like a very good plan. I would add though, if you see any residue of the oxides from fretting, replace the pulley. If it were me, I would utilize a light colored or glass bowl, large enough to submerge the pulley. Partially fill with Iso alcohol. Then, without submerging the pulley initially, wash the splines and center bore with an old toothbrush. Pass the brush through the bore dipping into the alcohol, and then washing the splines over the alcohol to let any debris drop into the bowl. This will allow a good visual indication by seeing oxide remnants into to alcohol, at the bottom of the bowl.

    If no oxides are noticed, wash the entire pulley and output shaft splines very clean. Reinspect for wear, hopefully none is noticed. Lubricate and install the fastener. Once you have accomplished the task, future inspections and reapplication of lubricant is fairly quick and easy. As a suggestion, reinspect at around 14,000 miles, then at the 28,000 mile scheduled maintenance. I suspect with moly paste, the interval will then be at each 28,000 mile scheduled maintenance therafter.

  11. #36
    Active Member 007james's Avatar
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    This procedure is only for people who do their own maintenance, not for us who don’t even change our own Oil. Heck, if BRP provided Sprockets that weren’t Crap, we would never have to deal with such reoccurring problems. There HAS to be reasonable permanent fixes to the crappy Sprocket failures. They could either Hard Chrome plate the spline area of the Sprockets, or Electroless Nickel plate the spline area, or change the entire Sprocket from crappy chinese steel to Stainless Steel that would not disintegrate. They could even use a Stainless Steel Spline insert only, in the core of the crappy steel Sprocket. The problem should be , BRP’s problem, not Dealer’s & Owner’s problem. Its a good thing BRP doesn't build Aircraft! There would be many crashes and fatalities!

    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Sounds like a very good plan. I would add though, if you see any residue of the oxides from fretting, replace the pulley. If it were me, I would utilize a light colored or glass bowl, large enough to submerge the pulley. Partially fill with Iso alcohol. Then, without submerging the pulley initially, wash the splines and center bore with an old toothbrush. Pass the brush through the bore dipping into the alcohol, and then washing the splines over the alcohol to let any debris drop into the bowl. This will allow a good visual indication by seeing oxide remnants into to alcohol, at the bottom of the bowl.

    If no oxides are noticed, wash the entire pulley and output shaft splines very clean. Reinspect for wear, hopefully none is noticed. Lubricate and install the fastener. Once you have accomplished the task, future inspections and reapplication of lubricant is fairly quick and easy. As a suggestion, reinspect at around 14,000 miles, then at the 28,000 mile scheduled maintenance. I suspect with moly paste, the interval will then be at each 28,000 mile scheduled maintenance therafter.

  12. #37
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    Hey PMK, why would you recommend this? Lubricate and install the fastener.
    The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.

  13. #38
    Very Active Member stmike 1800's Avatar
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    A slight taper and proper torque ,and the problem would never show it's ugly head .

  14. #39
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    You got that right Mike. Send that suggestion to BRP.
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  15. #40
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 007james View Post
    This procedure is only for people who do their own maintenance, not for us who don’t even change our own Oil. Heck, if BRP provided Sprockets that weren’t Crap, we would never have to deal with such reoccurring problems. There HAS to be reasonable permanent fixes to the crappy Sprocket failures. They could either Hard Chrome plate the spline area of the Sprockets, or Electroless Nickel plate the spline area, or change the entire Sprocket from crappy chinese steel to Stainless Steel that would not disintegrate. They could even use a Stainless Steel Spline insert only, in the core of the crappy steel Sprocket. The problem should be , BRP’s problem, not Dealer’s & Owner’s problem. Its a good thing BRP doesn't build Aircrafts! There would be many crashes and fatalities!
    Overall, the failures for many have been correct in that the gearbox output shaft is not destroyed, and the pulley is a sacrificial item at lower cost for the part and much lower cost on labor.

    Our 2014 RTS was delivered from BRP with lubricated splines and had no issues when I removed the pulley for inspection.

    Altering the pulleys material, adding coatings or any other change that could ruin the gearbox shaft is counterproductive.

    While owners may not be acceptable to a scheduled maintenance item. The pulleys should be installed lubricated and have a scheduled maintenance interval. If an owner elects to override and skip the maintenance with a resulting failure, then so be it.

  16. #41
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmike 1800 View Post
    A slight taper and proper torque ,and the problem would never show it's ugly head .

    Absolutely true, stop the relative movement and fretting does not occur.

    Tapered splines are more costly to manufacture and will require a puller for pulley removal. Lubricated straight splinescan be very acceptable, if maintained.

  17. #42
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
    Hey PMK, why would you recommend this? Lubricate and install the fastener.

    You can, however the lubricant will override the thread locker and the bolt may loosen unless safetied somehow.

  18. #43
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    You can, however the lubricant will override the thread locker and the bolt may loosen unless safetied somehow.
    Thanks for the prompt reply PMK. Yeah I was just curious as the lubricate and install the fastener conflicts with the factory service manual ( well, at least my old copy).

    It's really good of you to now add that very important clarification for toolie's benefit and perhaps others. But that raises another question - how would you suggest it be safetied?
    The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.

  19. #44
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    Ok so is it grease on spline and loctite on thread? Or with that no-seez, use that for both?
    I had 3 sprocket failures on my 09 including complete failure where they had to replace whole shebang, tearing the engine apart.
    Current RS have 10k without an issue but I’m sure it’s coming and I would like to prevent it this time.
    Thank you.
    6 states down 42 states to go

  20. #45
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    In the middle of reply 26 I detailed what I did to mine. Perhaps others will chime in too.
    The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.

  21. #46
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    No grease on the spline, moly paste will last much longer and stand up to the heat much better.

  22. #47
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    The recommendation was a new bolt or using locktite threadlocker on the threads, and torqing the bolt 4 lbs greater than the recommended 92 foot pounds.

  23. #48
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    Ok so moly paste on spline, loctite on thread.
    Thank you.
    6 states down 42 states to go

  24. #49
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    I know some will be agitated by this, but on Finless Bobs FB group I posted photos of the task and what I did, but never posted them here. If someone decides too, they could retrieve them and post them.

    In short, the pulley was removed. The pulley was washed with solvent and the gearbox shaft was washed with solvent also. Both were visually inspected. The shaft and pulley bore were lubricated with moly paste. I had purchased a new bolt with the builtin washer. The new bolt had the head drilled for safety wire. The threads of the bolt were not coated with anything. The shank of the bolt was coated with Mastinox corrosion prevention compound. Pretty certain, moly paste, but could have been Mastinox was applied to the fay surface of the pulley and built in washer. Everything was assembled wet with products described. The bolt was torqued to specs with a calibrated torque wrench. Once torqued, the bolt was safety wired to prevent any loosening unless the safety wire were to break. After safety wiring, the drilled hole in the bolt head was sealed with non acidic RTV silicone.

    Wanted to add, the new bolt came with pre applied locking compound, no other thread locking compound was utilized.

  25. #50
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    Is loctite 51048 same thing?
    65% moly.
    If not, I will go with Honda moly paste m77, also 65% and supposed to real good.
    6 states down 42 states to go

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