Front Sprocket Spline Failures

[toolie]

In view of the failures of front pullies was just thinking. Who has pulled their pulley and either put spline grease or locktite to stave off future failures and what did you use? And who suffered a failure because of a dry spline?

[PMK]

In view of the failures of front pullies was just thinking. Who has pulled their pulley and either put spline grease or locktite to stave off future failures and what did you use? And who suffered a failure because of a dry spline?

Months ago, I removed the front pulley from our 2014 RTS. From the original build, the splines were lubricated. Washed the pulley and output shaft, inspected and found no wear. This was done prior to Can Am having a recommended lubricant in the TSB. I utilized a different product, but publicly will recommend that owners follow the service instructions recommended lubricant.

[Eckhard]

Where do we get a copy of the TSB?

[toolie]

PMK are you saying that your splines were lubricated from the factory?

[PMK]

PMK are you saying that your splines were lubricated from the factory?

Yes, our RTS had lubricant applied at manufacture.

[larryd]

I just serviced my 2014 RTS and I checked the splines and they also appear to be lubed...

[h0gr1der]

I got the new 2019 service manual for the RT, there's a lot more info in there than previous versions.. The front sprocket is listed a greased with Kluberpaste 46 MR 401. It's expensive as all get out for grease, but maybe it works miracles.

MSDS suggests its composition as: Chemical characterization (preparation): Polyalkylene glycol oil, lithium soap, solid lubricants (e.g. phosphates)

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

I find this issue interesting …. to the best of my knowledge … this was never a problem with the RT …. Why is it an issue with the F-3 ???? ….. Could this be similar to the DESS Fiasco ….. Not a problem until some engineer decided it needed Fixing …. NOW there is a problem … Is this a Canadian thing ????? ………...….good luck …. Mike

[wingit3611]

I find this issue interesting …. to the best of my knowledge … this was never a problem with the RT …. Why is it an issue with the F-3 ???? ….. Could this be similar to the DESS Fiasco ….. Not a problem until some engineer decided it needed Fixing …. NOW there is a problem … Is this a Canadian thing ????? ………...….good luck …. Mike

Does that mean what it sounds like, ThatRTL SE5 just don't have the problem. Except for some normal wear an tear.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

Does that mean what it sounds like, ThatRTL SE5 just don't have the problem. Except for some normal wear an tear.

From what I have read about this …. RT - RTs - RTL do not have the Red Dust issue ……. Mike

[Freddy]

I find this issue interesting …. to the best of my knowledge … this was never a problem with the RT …. Why is it an issue with the F-3 ???? ….. Could this be similar to the DESS Fiasco ….. Not a problem until some engineer decided it needed Fixing …. NOW there is a problem … Is this a Canadian thing ????? ………...….good luck …. Mike

This problem started in 2008 on the GS/RS models. The BRP engineers issued a TSB stating that the cause of the failure was 'insufficient clamping force' on the pulley - meaning that the bolt wasn't done up properly tight at the factory, so they increased the torque spec and told dealers to mark a X on the head of the bolt when it had been retorqued. That just about solved the problem except for folks whose trikes never got the retorque to the higher spec because they never got back to a dealer, or the dealer was ignorant.

And don't pick on my Canadian friends or.....or..........or I'll say something nice about Donny Trump.

There are several reports of this failure on the RT1330 that I've read hereabouts.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

This problem started in 2008 on the GS/RS models. The BRP engineers issued a TSB stating that the cause of the failure was 'insufficient clamping force' on the pulley - meaning that the bolt wasn't done up properly tight at the factory, so they increased the torque spec and told dealers to mark a X on the head of the bolt when it had been retorqued. That just about solved the problem except for folks whose trikes never got the retorque to the higher spec because they never got back to a dealer, or the dealer was ignorant.

And don't pick on my Canadian friends or.....or..........or I'll say something nice about Donny Trump.

There are several reports of this failure on the RT1330 that I've read hereabouts.

Thanks for the info …… Mike …………….PS - the Canadians are not my enemy …..

[larryd]

You Know I've ridden two wheel motorcycles for 50+ years...ON almost all my off road bikes I changed the front chain drive sprockets to a smaller size for lower gearing for off road riding...From what I can remember most of these sprockets fit loosely on the transmission output shaft and were held on WITH a large E clip...I rode in every tube of mud hole that existed...I had chain and sprockets wear out from mud, dirt, sand, rocks and who knows what else....BUT I DO NOT REMEMBER OF EVER HAVING A SPROCKET TO SPLINE FAILURE...

[oneway]

I have a 2016 RTS. Front pulley failure at 18,000 miles. Replaced under warranty. Out of warranty now another failure at 28,000 miles so only got 10000 miles out of last pulley

[007james]

Oneway, ....pretty much same on my RT. First Failure at 21,500, and the 2nd at 33,800 miles. Both fixed under Warrantee, and I just bought another 3 year BEST Extended. So my next Sprocket failure will cost me $50 Deductible, plus more down time. Obviously, I wonder how many more miles my 3rd Sprocket will hold up before failing, and the Big concern is, will my Shaft have enough spline material left to accept another, or more Sprocket Pulleys? In your case, with no Warrantee, I would guess changing the Sprocket out again, if it can be removed from the Shaft, will cost you about $500.00 U.S. ( with no surprises.) but if the Shaft splines are too far gone, than the entire engine will have to be removed, with case split, to remove the Shaft, which I have heard all kinds of different guesses on how many hours of labor will be required, up to 25 hours. With no Warrantee, that would be Land Fill time for me! Or, I’d look for a Back Yard Mechanic who might try to get it fixed enough to sell it. But I’d stay real close to Home with it. No doubt, as more time rolls on, and the 2014 and up RTs and Fs will be reporting as the miles and experiences are shared here,....hopefully.
007James

I have a 2016 RTS. Front pulley failure at 18,000 miles. Replaced under warranty. Out of warranty now another failure at 28,000 miles so only got 10000 miles out of last pulley

[dondje]

So I have been thinking about using this since the solution changed from locking things down. Just been waiting to do my rear tire change at the same time.

Have had it around all my life as my dad was a navy and merchant marine, ship board maintenance electrician.

Regards,

Don

BTW: Don't get it on your hands or clothing. It doesn't wash out.

"Mariner's Choice NMCBT-8, Marine Grade Never Seez, provides extreme pressure lubrication and protects against seizure, galling, and corrosion both above and below the water line. Use on winches, cables, bilge pumps, anchor lines, porthole studs, rigging, hoist cables, suspension bridges, wind turbines, offshore rigging, or other applications exposed to harsh salt water and freshwater conditions. Requires about 41% less torque while providing the same clamping force on threads. Perfect for high moisture environments!"

neverseez-mariners-choice__11334.1516048593.jpg

[PMK]

So I have been thinking about using this since the solution changed from locking things down. Just been waiting to do my rear tire change at the same time.

Have had it around all my life as my dad was a navy and merchant marine, ship board maintenance electrician.

Regards,

Don

BTW: Don't get it on your hands or clothing. It doesn't wash out.

"Mariner's Choice NMCBT-8, Marine Grade Never Seez, provides extreme pressure lubrication and protects against seizure, galling, and corrosion both above and below the water line. Use on winches, cables, bilge pumps, anchor lines, porthole studs, rigging, hoist cables, suspension bridges, wind turbines, offshore rigging, or other applications exposed to harsh salt water and freshwater conditions. Requires about 41% less torque while providing the same clamping force on threads. Perfect for high moisture environments!"

neverseez-mariners-choice__11334.1516048593.jpg

No doubt better than assembling dry, however, before considering an anti seize product, realize that often then tend to dry out when in service. Maybe have a look at the Honda and BMW driveshaft spline lubes or similar products. I do like anti seize in many applications, but not all applications.

[dondje]

No doubt better than assembling dry, however, before considering an anti seize product, realize that often then tend to dry out when in service. Maybe have a look at the Honda and BMW driveshaft spline lubes or similar products. I do like anti seize in many applications, but not all applications.

I am guessing that you have never used this particular product. I have been using it for over 50yrs. I have a can of it that was my dad's that is over 40yo and it has not dried out. The lid hasn't been real tight on it either. I have used other anti-seize products that do dry out as you stated. But this one is the best.

My guess is that the factory installed product washes/wears away, leaving the metal exposed and increases play between sprocket and shaft. This product won't do that even when exposed to salt water on the underside of a ship's hull. It will also hold up to temps up to 2400 deg. I will be using new product for my Spyder.

Regards,

Don

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

So I have been thinking about using this since the solution changed from locking things down. Just been waiting to do my rear tire change at the same time.

Have had it around all my life as my dad was a navy and merchant marine, ship board maintenance electrician.

Regards,

Don

BTW: Don't get it on your hands or clothing. It doesn't wash out.

"Mariner's Choice NMCBT-8, Marine Grade Never Seez, provides extreme pressure lubrication and protects against seizure, galling, and corrosion both above and below the water line. Use on winches, cables, bilge pumps, anchor lines, porthole studs, rigging, hoist cables, suspension bridges, wind turbines, offshore rigging, or other applications exposed to harsh salt water and freshwater conditions. Requires about 41% less torque while providing the same clamping force on threads. Perfect for high moisture environments!"

neverseez-mariners-choice__11334.1516048593.jpg

I checked the price …. not cheap, $19.99 , but it is Free Ground shipping ….. so if this works ...……….Mike

[PMK]

I checked the price …. not cheap, $19.99 , but it is Free Ground shipping ….. so if this works ...……….Mike

The Honda spline lube is similar or less expensive and purpose specific for lubricating splines. Seems that could be a better choice, but whatever works.

[BLUEKNIGHT911]

The Honda spline lube is similar or less expensive and purpose specific for lubricating splines. Seems that could be a better choice, but whatever works.

....Thanks , but I seem to remember reading they don't sell it anymore …… the Bostik was for 8 oz., so enough to share or multiple applications …. PS I have 45,000+ miles …. and I don't see any RED DUST etc …. Mike

[PMK]

....Thanks , but I seem to remember reading they don't sell it anymore …… the Bostik was for 8 oz., so enough to share or multiple applications …. PS I have 45,000+ miles …. and I don't see any RED DUST etc …. Mike

When deciding on a spline lube for our machine, the Honda dealer had the stuff in stock.

Honda does not make the paste, I believe it is just Molykote M77

[SpyderF3-s]

My Spyder F3-S, 61,000 miles, has had the front sprocket fail 3 times. Seems like it lasts about 20,000 miles. I also have had several dirt bikes and never had to replace a sprocket.

[h0gr1der]

I don't have a dog in this race (yet, mine is new), but wonder if the high belt tensions Can Am recommends may have anything to do with the splines failing?

[Freddy]

PMK, I'm glad you've been able to clarify exactly what is happening to cause these failures - thank you.

However, I disagree with you on the point: Consider, if the splines were removed, would the bolt and washer alone be adequate to propel the Spyder forward. Obviously, no. The splines are responsible for 99.999999% of making the Spyder drive go to the wheel.

In my experience, the splines are not responsible for 'making the Spyder drive go to the wheels.' It is the clamping force of the bolt which does this by locking the component solidly together. This was in fact acknowledged in the TSB which BRP released back in 2009 when the problem first arose. The pulley was not designed to be a wear item but rather a sacrificial item IF adequate clamping force was ever lost, or never initially applied as we now see again.

FWIW, I bought my GS in Dec 2009 soon after this issue first arose and the release of that TSB. I purchased a new OEM bolt, did some minor research on what torque a bolt of that spec could take and found it to be about 10-15% higher (from memory) than what BRP recommended in the TSB, so I applied that higher torque. To this day and 96,000km later, the pulley on my trike shows no sign of red dust.

It seems to me that BRP have a short corporate memory in this regard.

I've suggested that folks apply Loctite 660 and 7471 primer to the splines if they find fretting in the early stage which, when effectively clamped with the bolt, may/should/could eliminate fretting.


PS I have seen a number of other automotive and industrial applications which rely on clamping force to transmit torque to splined components and I've seen a number where one part or the other is sacrificial.