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  1. #51
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    If anecdotal evidence was needed then yes, i have read thousands of posts on varying sites [Goldwings and others] that what you're saying is right, enough to convince me to go that way. Now to find whats available in Oz. the OUDTRAC 5 does not seem to be available here.
    Tell me what's readily available to you in the Auto tire category and I'll see what's best in that bunch ….. Mike

  2. #52
    Active Member Airborne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Aawen View Post
    Bosch, who designed & produce the VSS used on our Spyders & a fairly significant range of other vehicles once the working parameters are dialed in seem to be pretty sure that something as trivial changing the brand of tires you run won't upset the VSS at all! It isn't of any concern on any o ne of all those other vehicles either, is it?! Besides, the VSS is designed to handle all sorts of variables, including different tire pressures & therefore differing rolling diameters, traction, road surfaces, etc, so something like a better made tire is going to be absobloodylutely nothing to the VSS!! And then there's the millions of miles of 'free testing' that's been done by thousands of Spyder Ryders over the years, with not one reported concern with the traction/stability systems or the entire VSS reported (in fact, quite the opposite!) IMHO, it's nothing but manufacturer scare tactics & double-speak to make owners scared of using anything but their low quality high priced excuse for a tire!

    And here in Aust, all vehicles that are approved for sale &/or 'grey import' must be able to run any 'design approved tire' that is within the approved +/- legal size range and that meets or exceeds the load & speed ratings & the construction type. So basically, any Pasenger construction type tire that will fit on your Spyder without modding the swing arms or front suspension under the OE tupperware is almost certainly a legal fitting! But it is up to you to decide if you want to run any tire other than the Kendas. I know what choice I've made!
    What are you running Peter.

  3. #53
    Active Member Airborne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    Tell me what's readily available to you in the Auto tire category and I'll see what's best in that bunch ….. Mike
    Thanks Mike, waiting on Peter or will do some research, finally though do changing from Kendas make that much of a difference, especially to handling/stability.

  4. #54
    Active Member FalconAF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    I'm guessing that you missed my Thread about this subject …. Harley Davidson .. SELLS their Trikes with Auto tires mounted as OEM tires … HD lists their Trikes as Motorcycles …… There is ZERO incentive for a dealer NOT to require the tires be Kenda's.... they make a hugh profit for doing this …… JMHO …. Mike
    That is true. But the key difference is HD "sells their trikes with auto tires mounted as OEM tires" to begin with. An attorney would have a hard time winning a lawsuit about an "aftermarket car tire" causing an accident or injury being the DEALER'S fault in the future if all they did was REPLACE an OEM-standard piece of equipment. HD made the "car tire" the "standard equipment of the product line" when it was originally bought by the customer. The lawyer would have to sue the TIRE MANUFACTURER instead of the DEALER or HD, and would have to prove the ENTIRE TIRE PRODUCT LINE was defective. That's not gonna happen. Plus, not many lawyers would WANT to sue an "American Icon" company like HD. They are the ONLY U.S. motorcycle manufacturer. And HD is struggling to even sell motorcycles nowadays. The media would have a field day with that. But sue a foreign manufacturer? Or their "dealer's representative"? Why not? The lawyers advertise, "You don't pay us unless we WIN!" is how most of these lawsuits work. If (when?) the lawyer wins the case, they keep one-third of the settlement as their "fee". It's a great way to make a living. And oh...if the lawyer isn't pretty sure they WILL win to begin with, they aren't even going to TRY to do the lawsuit to begin with. Sorry, but that's how it really works.

    So a dealer replacing a motorcycle tire with a car tire is subject to getting screwed TWO ways if they do it. First, they could get sued by any attorney who thinks they could convince a jury it was the dealer's fault. And second, the motorcycle manufacture could always say, "We didn't condone that. In fact, we RECOMMENDED to our dealers NOT to do it. It's not OUR fault. Heck, we even state it might VOID THE WARRANTY if the owner did it."

    Me? I'm gonna put car tires on my Spyder when the OEM's wear out. But it will be with the full knowledge that if I get in an accident after that, there won't be anyone I can reasonably try to blame for it "tire-wise". So if a dealer doesn't want to do it for me, I'm fine with that. If anyone else wants to do it for me, I'm willing to sign a "release of liability" for them in advance if they provide the service. Heck, in all honesty, I have a hard time believing anybody who agrees to MOUNT "car tires" on my motorcycle for me WOULDN'T want a "release of liability" form from me before they would do it. There's probably a lawyer out there somewhere who would chomp at the bit to sue the "installer" AND ME if I caused the accident. "Your Honor, and members of this distinguished jury (?), Rick knowingly put car tires on his motorcycle fully knowing the manufacturer recommended against doing that. When he lost control of the vehicle with THOSE tires and ran over Fluffy, the Plaintiff's loving family member poodle, he caused immense pain and suffering for the entire family. Make him pay! Make Him Pay!!!"
    2018 Spyder RT Limited

  5. #55
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalconAF View Post
    That is true. But the key difference is HD "sells their trikes with auto tires mounted as OEM tires" to begin with. An attorney would have a hard time winning a lawsuit about an "aftermarket car tire" causing an accident or injury being the DEALER'S fault in the future if all they did was REPLACE an OEM-standard piece of equipment. HD made the "car tire" the "standard equipment of the product line" when it was originally bought by the customer. The lawyer would have to sue the TIRE MANUFACTURER instead of the DEALER or HD, and would have to prove the ENTIRE TIRE PRODUCT LINE was defective. That's not gonna happen. Plus, not many lawyers would WANT to sue an "American Icon" company like HD. They are the ONLY U.S. motorcycle manufacturer. And HD is struggling to even sell motorcycles nowadays. The media would have a field day with that. But sue a foreign manufacturer? Or their "dealer's representative"? Why not? The lawyers advertise, "You don't pay us unless we WIN!" is how most of these lawsuits work. If (when?) the lawyer wins the case, they keep one-third of the settlement as their "fee". It's a great way to make a living. And oh...if the lawyer isn't pretty sure they WILL win to begin with, they aren't even going to TRY to do the lawsuit to begin with. Sorry, but that's how it really works.

    So a dealer replacing a motorcycle tire with a car tire is subject to getting screwed TWO ways if they do it. First, they could get sued by any attorney who thinks they could convince a jury it was the dealer's fault. And second, the motorcycle manufacture could always say, "We didn't condone that. In fact, we RECOMMENDED to our dealers NOT to do it. It's not OUR fault. Heck, we even state it might VOID THE WARRANTY if the owner did it."

    Me? I'm gonna put car tires on my Spyder when the OEM's wear out. But it will be with the full knowledge that if I get in an accident after that, there won't be anyone I can reasonably try to blame for it "tire-wise". So if a dealer doesn't want to do it for me, I'm fine with that. If anyone else wants to do it for me, I'm willing to sign a "release of liability" for them in advance if they provide the service.
    It would be in your best interests to familiarize your self with the " Moss-Magnusson Act " …. and I am quite familiar with what goes on in Court with attorney's etc. ……. I was a certified accident investigator for many years and testified in court about tires more times than I can count …. … Are you aware that the wheels on your Spyder " MOTORCYLE ", are actually stamped " J " type rims ….. which are AUTOMBILE rims ( not motorcycle rims - which are quite different )….. go figure ….. Mike

  6. #56
    Active Member FalconAF's Avatar
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    I'm not arguing with you about the rims and what kind of tires they can use.

    The real question is, "Why don't motorcycle dealers want to put car tires on motorcycles?" WE can debate that all day long. But the only person who knows the real answer is the dealers. And THEIR LAWYERS.

    I would love to see a motorcycle manufacturer's or dealer's lawyers reply to this thread about it. The LAST thing they are gonna say is because it isn't "profitable". They would all say (if you could get them to even say it), "From a litigation perspective, it's scary as h*ll".

    The only people a lawyer has to convince is a JURY in most litigation lawsuits. And juries are notorious for ruling, "Let's screw the companies!!! They can afford it!!!!"

    And I'm already familiar with "Moss-Magnusson" and what goes on in courts with attorneys. I was a First Sergeant in the Air Force for 6 of my years in the military. In that capacity, I dealt with both the Staff Judge Advocate's office (the plaintiff attorneys), and the Area Defense Council (the defense attorneys). It was a fascinating education. If you ever want to know how to NOT get selected for jury duty without facing a contempt of court charge, just ask.

    PS - I'm not arguing with you. Heck, I respect what you did as a law enforcement officer. Thank you for your service too.
    2018 Spyder RT Limited

  7. #57
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalconAF View Post
    I'm not arguing with you about the rims and what kind of tires they can use.

    The real question is, "Why don't motorcycle dealers want to put car tires on motorcycles?" WE can debate that all day long. But the only person who knows the real answer is the dealers. And THEIR LAWYERS.

    I would love to see a motorcycle manufacturer's or dealer's lawyers reply to this thread about it. The LAST thing they are gonna say is because it isn't "profitable". They would all say (if you could get them to even say it), "From a litigation perspective, it's scary as h*ll".

    The only people a lawyer has to convince is a JURY in most litigation lawsuits. And juries are notorious for ruling, "Let's screw the companies!!! They can afford it!!!!"

    And I'm already familiar with "Moss-Magnusson" and what goes on in courts with attorneys. I was a First Sergeant in the Air Force for 6 of my years in the military. In that capacity, I dealt with both the Staff Judge Advocate's office (the plaintiff attorneys), and the Area Defense Council (the defense attorneys). It was a fascinating education. If you ever want to know how to NOT get selected for jury duty without facing a contempt of court charge, just ask.

    PS - I'm not arguing with you. Heck, I respect what you did as a law enforcement officer. Thank you for your service too.
    I wasn't " arguing " with you …. I was providing the best info I had to give you knowledge and perspective …. and the military court system and the US trial court system are vastly different.... Mike

  8. #58
    Active Member FalconAF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    I wasn't " arguing " with you …. I was providing the best info I had to give you knowledge and perspective …. and the military court system and the US trial court system are vastly different.... Mike
    Of course they are. The UCMJ makes many misdemeanor civilian offenses a federal crime that can result in a felony conviction in a Courts Martial. I can tell my civilian employer to "Go To Hell" and the worst that can happen to me is I get fired. Do that to my military supervisor and I can become a convicted felon for the rest of my life. That's why it behooved me to learn BOTH the civilian and military legal systems. And I learned both of them while working with military lawyers, but many of whom were also CIVILIAN lawyers at the time just doing their 2 weeks of federal Reserve or state National Guard duties each year.

    Plus, the civilian system is divided into two distinct parts. Criminal law (crimes against the state or government) and Civil law (committing a wrong against another person, like a personal injury, regardless of whether it was intentional or not), which a surprising number of people don't know, let alone understand the differences between them. Most dealers wouldn't be worried about violating the Criminal law system if they installed car tires on motorcycles. They (and their lawyers) would be more concerned about the Civil law repercussions, where they could be sued for millions of dollars for "personal injury" type of verdicts.

    Neither one of us is "totally right" in our knowledge or perspectives or experiences. It's more that there ARE multiple perspectives to be considered in why a dealer or motorcycle manufacturer wouldn't be willing to put car tires on a motorcycle for a customer. The U.S. litigation rules ARE a primary reason for it, even if the bike is sold with car WHEELS with motorcycle tires on it at the time of purchase. But yes, I'll also recognize that some manufacturers and dealers may not want to do it so they could try to "force" a customer to purchase OEM products with a higher profit margin for them.
    2018 Spyder RT Limited

  9. #59
    Active Member Airborne's Avatar
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    Boys! Boys!

    It goes to show, many opinions and different angles out there. I Believe both of you are correct in your opinions and can see where your coming from.

    Thing is, are we being given the wrong information about the OEM tires and is it simply cost - the cost of the tire to the manufacturer -or simply a profit making exercise - i wonder!

    Me, i'd rather listen and trust people with the time and experience over many years than believe someone that is simply profit driven.

    My opinion - I put whatever i want on my vehicles so long as they are safe and improve performance and i believe someone would have a hard time prosecuting me in this particular
    scenario.

    Thanks to you both for your help and opinions, keep em coming, they count.

  10. #60
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FalconAF View Post
    Of course they are. The UCMJ makes many misdemeanor civilian offenses a federal crime that can result in a felony conviction in a Courts Martial. I can tell my civilian employer to "Go To Hell" and the worst that can happen to me is I get fired. Do that to my military supervisor and I can become a convicted felon for the rest of my life. That's why it behooved me to learn BOTH the civilian and military legal systems. And I learned both of them while working with military lawyers, but many of whom were also CIVILIAN lawyers at the time just doing their 2 weeks of federal Reserve or state National Guard duties each year.

    Plus, the civilian system is divided into two distinct parts. Criminal law (crimes against the state or government) and Civil law (committing a wrong against another person, like a personal injury, regardless of whether it was intentional or not), which a surprising number of people don't know, let alone understand the differences between them. Most dealers wouldn't be worried about violating the Criminal law system if they installed car tires on motorcycles. They (and their lawyers) would be more concerned about the Civil law repercussions, where they could be sued for millions of dollars for "personal injury" type of verdicts.

    Neither one of us is "totally right" in our knowledge or perspectives or experiences. It's more that there ARE multiple perspectives to be considered in why a dealer or motorcycle manufacturer wouldn't be willing to put car tires on a motorcycle for a customer. The U.S. litigation rules ARE a primary reason for it, even if the bike is sold with car WHEELS with motorcycle tires on it at the time of purchase. But yes, I'll also recognize that some manufacturers and dealers may not want to do it so they could try to "force" a customer to purchase OEM products with a higher profit margin for them.
    I think you want to " argue " so I'm done here …. bets of luck and good cheer …… Mike

  11. #61
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    Okay I need somebody to tell me what size I need to put on the front and back of my rt and psi . I ride two and pull a trailer sometimes . I so confused people are posting different sizes. Please help

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbax View Post
    Okay I need somebody to tell me what size I need to put on the front and back of my rt and psi . I ride two and pull a trailer sometimes . I so confused people are posting different sizes. Please help
    Ideally you need the standard size of tyre, unfortunately there is very few manufacturers make our size of tyre and of them the tyres they make are often not so desirable. So, if you want to keep your bike's VSS and ABS within it's design parameters you will be best selecting a tyre with as near as possible the same rolling radius as the original tyre's rolling radius.

    There will be some tolerance for the rolling radius because tyres wear out and get smaller so they need to do more revolutions per mile as they wear out. IMHO, if an exact match in rolling radius is not available it is therefore better to select a tyre with a smaller diameter rather than a larger diameter. That equates to more turns per mile. Here is a link to a tyre calculator, in line 1 put the original equipment tyre size, in line 2 put the tyre size you are checking and then click on compare. https://tiresize.com/comparison/

    If you're not happy with alternative tyres you find in the correct size and you want to make a change of tyre, you need to start investigating alternatives of a different size. When you find a tyre you're interested in and it comes in sizes approximate to the original tyres, you can enter your chosen size into the calculator and check whether you deem it suitable.

    So, as an example, for the rear tyre line 1 will be: 225 - 50 - 15 (original size)
    If you put 205 - 55 - 15 into line two you'll find that to be an almost exact match in rolling radius. Other sizes will vary, of course. Only you can decide what tyre and what size you are happy to accept. Obviously you need to repeat this for the front tyres too.

    Again, only you know what type of tyre you need, eg. do you ride in rainy conditions, do you ride in snow occasionally, are you a fair weather rider etc. Choosing a winter or all-weather tread pattern wouldn't make sense if you mainly ride in summer in Texas!

    To assist with a tyre choice it just happens that in the EU it is a legal requirement that tyres are tested and labeled with certain characteristics so buyers can make a better assessment than simply guessing or choosing a tyre because it looks good or is just a recommendation. The main parameters on the label are: Fuel economy, tyre noise, wet grip and a snowflake symbol if the tyre is classed for winter use.

    This can be useful to you because if your choice of tyre is available also in Europe, and many of them will be, you can go to a European website and view the tyre characteristics since it is a legal requirement that they be stated. Here is a link to one site which I use frequently, though they don't necessarily carry all makes of tyre. https://www.oponeo.co.uk/

    I'll post a picture of an actual tyre label so you can get a better idea how it is done. The label is attached to the tyre tread.

    However, the final choice is yours. Good luck with it!

    Edit: Green, Grade A is good, red is bad.
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    Last edited by Spyderlass; 06-02-2019 at 04:41 PM. Reason: Forgot to say...

  13. #63
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    Thanks for all the helpful information

  14. #64
    Active Member bigbadbrucie's Avatar
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    Well, I ordered my Vredestrein fronts on May 9th from QuattroTires out of Quebec, received them today. I went to my. Dealer and they will be mounting and balancing them tomorrow. Will let you know what I think of them once I have a few Kmís on them. Looking forward to replacing the Kendaís. Iíll probably do the rear next year.

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  15. #65
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    2012 RT--my dealer is will switch my tires to Vresdestane Quatres5 and Tumho Ecsta rear Tuesday--no problem. His service guy says the car tire wall will or may, cause windshield bracket to break??? Had seen any such a report here. wallburl--Wichita Ks--Marine World Dealer.

  16. #66
    Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
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    I can conclusively say, tongue in cheek, that my Vredesteins absolutely haven't killed me, broke the bike, or made the windshield bracket bust. The Kuhmo, on the other hand!!! Can't say. Seriously, if the tires balance out correctly, how could it possibly bust the bracket? Rougher ride? No way! The Vredesteins ride and handle better. The fronts are about 2 lbs lighter each, less unsprung weight.
    h0gr1der
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    States Visited on Less than 4 wheels.

  17. #67
    Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Peter Aawen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallburl View Post
    2012 RT--my dealer is will switch my tires to Vresdestane Quatres5 and Tumho Ecsta rear Tuesday--no problem. His service guy says the car tire wall will or may, cause windshield bracket to break??? Had seen any such a report here. wallburl--Wichita Ks--Marine World Dealer.
    Absolute bunkum & balderdash!

    My windscreen bracket broke about 500km BEFORE I tossed the crappy Kendas in the bin at about 5000km! He's using a 'known weakness' to try and bulls***! people into thinking their tire choice had something to do with it!

    Yes, it IS quite likely that your windshield bracket will break AT SOME TIME, but it's likely gonna do that regardless of your tire choice! I really wouldn't trust a tech who doles out that sorta rubbish any further than I could throw him, and I'd be marching into the Dealer Principal's office and telling him it's THAT sort of BS that's lost him yet another customer, before going elswhere PDQ! How can you trust someone who spreads obvious BS like that to do any reliable work on your Spyder, or on anything else for that matter!!

    Enjoy whatever tire you choose to fit, secure in the knowledge that your tire choice has ABSOLUTELY NO IMPACT on that windscreen bracket breaking or not! And if your windscreen bracket does happen to break (for entirely unrelated reasons) then send 'Noboot' here on the forum a msg/PM & get one of his billet replacements with all the necessary wedges & instructions to change it out too - they look pretty damn good and they WONT EVER break on you, tire choice notwithstanding! Only if you send him a msg in the next 5 weeks or so, it might take a bit of a while for him to get back to you - he's gone bush & will only have occasional phone/web access until he's back.
    2013 RT Ltd

  18. #68
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallburl View Post
    2012 RT--my dealer is will switch my tires to Vresdestane Quatres5 and Tumho Ecsta rear Tuesday--no problem. His service guy says the car tire wall will or may, cause windshield bracket to break??? Had seen any such a report here. wallburl--Wichita Ks--Marine World Dealer.
    I really like the Quatrac 5 tire …. Your STEALER is " lying " to you - period ….. The Kumho is OK , however many folks here have reported at about 1/2 worn the WET traction starts to get BAD ….. there are other better choices …… good luck …. Mike ……………...PS the front PSI is best at 15-16 …. the rear 17 - 18 …..

  19. #69
    Very Active Member PW2013STL's Avatar
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    At 17,000 miles my 205/55R15 S-drive rear tire hit the wear bars, so I mounted the Quatres 5 in 205/60R15 yesterday. Today did about 350 miles on it. The first thing I noticed was the softer ride. I assume that is due to the ratio difference as well as the softer sidewall on the Vresdestane. The grip was every bit as good as the S-drive, but with a more comfortable ride.

    I am very pleased with these tires!
    I am running the fronts at 16# and the rear at 18#

    Side note this size is getting my mph reading to within 1 mph differance from my GPS, so at 61 on the Spyder my GPS reads 60. My wife's 2018 F3L with stock tires was reading the same on hers. We dropped her Spyder off at the dealer for its 3000 mile service and they let her take an 2019 F3L to ride. That one also read 61 at a GPS 60 on stock tires.
    It appears that CanAm has adjusted them to be closer to the true speed. This means I will need to keep the replacement rear tire ratio closer to the 50 the stock tire has.
    2015 F3S, 2018 F3L

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    but our benefits don't?

  20. #70
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PW2013STL View Post
    At 17,000 miles my 205/55R15 S-drive rear tire hit the wear bars, so I mounted the Quatres 5 in 205/60R15 yesterday. Today did about 350 miles on it. The first thing I noticed was the softer ride. I assume that is due to the ratio difference as well as the softer sidewall on the Vresdestane. The grip was every bit as good as the S-drive, but with a more comfortable ride.

    I am very pleased with these tires!
    I am running the fronts at 16# and the rear at 18#

    Side note this size is getting my mph reading to within 1 mph differance from my GPS, so at 61 on the Spyder my GPS reads 60. My wife's 2018 F3L with stock tires was reading the same on hers. We dropped her Spyder off at the dealer for its 3000 mile service and they let her take an 2019 F3L to ride. That one also read 61 at a GPS 60 on stock tires.
    It appears that CanAm has adjusted them to be closer to the true speed. This means I will need to keep the replacement rear tire ratio closer to the 50 the stock tire has.
    You said that the Vredestein had the same reading ( even tho it's a 60 sidewall ) ….. If you like the ride of the Vredestein ( ) ….. then I would stick with that tire ….. the Quatrac 5 has a better performance rating than the " S " drive and I believe it will last longer …… Mike

  21. #71
    Very Active Member PW2013STL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    You said that the Vredestein had the same reading ( even tho it's a 60 sidewall ) ….. If you like the ride of the Vredestein ( ) ….. then I would stick with that tire ….. the Quatrac 5 has a better performance rating than the " S " drive and I believe it will last longer …… Mike
    Mike,

    I will be staying with this tire as it does everything I want a Spyder tire to do!
    Thank you for promoting this tire!!

    Les
    2015 F3S, 2018 F3L

    Isn't it weird that in AMERICA our flag and our culture offend so many people......
    but our benefits don't?

  22. #72
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PW2013STL View Post
    Mike,

    I will be staying with this tire as it does everything I want a Spyder tire to do!
    Thank you for promoting this tire!!

    Les
    Your welcome ….. I don't consider what I say about tires is really " promoting " ….. it's more like Sharing knowledge, … Myself and Peter ( Aawen ) know more about tires ( from the science side of it ) than anyone else I know on this Forum...… Peter gives Excellent advice … I would follow Him to H*ll if He asked ….. Mike

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    ..Myself and Peter ( Aawen ) know more about tires ( from the science side of it ) than anyone else I know on this Forum...Ö
    Oh, really? That's good to know...

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyderlass View Post
    Oh, really? That's good to know...
    I'm glad you are happy or something …. it indicates you at the very least your alive …......………. I realize you are or weren't happy about what I discovered about your Maxxis tyre ….. but you were the one Quoting Tyre tests, to begin with …… Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    ... I realize you are or weren't happy about what I discovered about your Maxxis tyre …..
    On the contrary, you didn't discover anything I didn't already know. You just thought you did.
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