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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcthorne View Post
    Two minor points that might help. First is the faults page in BUDS does indeed store the time each event occurs and it can be displayed until they are removed. Except they are expressed in engine hours, not date and time.

    Second if that group of faults has all happened in a few hours run time, I would highly suspect a voltage issue. Start with carefully checking the battery connections, the ground cable both ends and then the fuse box. Have seen many fuse boxes get corrosion in the fuse holders. Pull each fuse and clean them, reinsert. If there is visible rust on the terminals in the box, it got water in there and is too far gone. Replacement time. All those sensors and especially the DPS do not all go bad at the same time. DPS is heavy power user, especially when you were turning and could easily be the trigger point for a low voltage event. Check the battery condition as well.

    Good luck in finding the issue.
    Thanks jcthorne, I'll let BRP/dealer work out when these faults occurred. One of the first maintenance jobs I did not long after I purchased the bike new some 14 months ago was smear a little electrical grease on the fuse connections & on the battery terminals & tighten them. Have not looked at these until the day after the lockup. Everything looked brand new, & both battery connection terminal bolts [+& -] although tight, I nipped them a little more. Negative to bodywork I found very tight. Also checked battery voltage static & read 13volts. On starting, battery voltage dropped to 11v momentarily then back up to 13volts. Looks like the battery is ok. With your experience, what do you think? The battery brand name is Dynavolt...Thanks, Treva.

  2. #52
    Very Active Member jcthorne's Avatar
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    Not having eyes on the bike and just throwing out ideas from what I have read here. If the voltage is steady under load, then the battery is fine, no matter the brand. It was just that experience has shown when a number of faults show up together, especially DPS, suspect battery voltage issues first.

    My next steps would be to clear all occured faults and concentrate on active faults. If none, its going to take some riding and troubleshooting to find anything that is not currently an active fault. Last couple times I went down this rabbit hole, it turned out to be chaffed wiring harness grounding a circuit. Hard to find.

    Keep us posted on what the dealer finds and where this leads. I will try and post any thoughts on what may be going on as we learn things.

    Blue Flame Spyder F3-S

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcthorne View Post
    Not having eyes on the bike and just throwing out ideas from what I have read here. If the voltage is steady under load, then the battery is fine, no matter the brand. It was just that experience has shown when a number of faults show up together, especially DPS, suspect battery voltage issues first.

    My next steps would be to clear all occured faults and concentrate on active faults. If none, its going to take some riding and troubleshooting to find anything that is not currently an active fault. Last couple times I went down this rabbit hole, it turned out to be chaffed wiring harness grounding a circuit. Hard to find.

    Keep us posted on what the dealer finds and where this leads. I will try and post any thoughts on what may be going on as we learn things.
    Thanks for the feedback jcthorne, There are no active faults & I hear what you say about hard to find. The bike is going back to the dealer next Thursday. I'll post when I know something...Treva.

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    The bike has been at the dealer for 3 weeks now. They found some anomalies, informed BRP, who diagnosed a VCM problem. I was informed by the dealer on 5/14/19, that the part was being air freighted. I called the dealer today, & was shocked to hear the part is at least another 2 weeks away. Air freight....WTF. I have lost patience with BRP, & I'm a very tolerant person. The out come of the rear wheel lock up could have had disastrous consequences. One would think BRP would have expedited the part to enable the dealer to have the bike up & running within a week at most, & to appease the customer. Either they, BRP, do not know the real problem or their customer service stinks. Possibly both. Really starting to believe all the negative feedback regarding BRP on a lot of forums.

    One thing I know for certain is BRP has lost a sale of a new F3 which I was going to purchase for our sons 50th birthday next month.

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    Quote Originally Posted by treva View Post
    The bike has been at the dealer for 3 weeks now. They found some anomalies, informed BRP, who diagnosed a VCM problem. I was informed by the dealer on 5/14/19, that the part was being air freighted. I called the dealer today, & was shocked to hear the part is at least another 2 weeks away. Air freight....WTF. I have lost patience with BRP, & I'm a very tolerant person. The out come of the rear wheel lock up could have had disastrous consequences. One would think BRP would have expedited the part to enable the dealer to have the bike up & running within a week at most, & to appease the customer. Either they, BRP, do not know the real problem or their customer service stinks. Possibly both. Really starting to believe all the negative feedback regarding BRP on a lot of forums.

    One thing I know for certain is BRP has lost a sale of a new F3 which I was going to purchase for our sons 50th birthday next month.
    Sorry to hear of your problems Treva and sorrier still more of your leaving the brand. i recently bought a 18 F3 LTD, you've probably seen my posts recently!

    If not, i have been on a learning curve on the handling side of things and have really started to enjoy the ride and still do but my confidence was shattered a day ago when i joined a group ride of over 50s riders [group will/shall remain nameless] for the day.

    I Was part of this group/club a year or two ago on two wheels and back then they were the quickest group of older riders i'd ridden with, good luck to them, mostly great folks and a pleasure to be around but i was always down the back with the 'tail-end charlie' not a problem apart from two things, a slight feeling of self-induced guilt about not keeping up, worse still a club member, on the pretence of being helpful, took me to one side and told me that for the sake of the group i must keep up!

    Now i wasn't going slow, around or just under the speed limit and taking corners with my skill levels but he's quick and he doesn't want to be held up!

    So i happened to come across the President the over day who invited me back to ride with them again, well lo and behold, the same fast member was still there and this day was leading the run, i was gobsmacked when he said in his pr-amble 'again fellas, keep up with the rider in front of you. Again i struggled to keep the pace and gave up in the end and went home. To top it all off this guy used to be a Police crash investigator, unbelievable!

    In all my years of riding i have never been told to keep up with anyone, the opposite is true ,take your time, run at your own pace. Even in my younger silly days on and in Sports Bike clubs.

    Everyone should ride at a pace that suits them fast or slow, it's there choice but telling people to ;keep up; is a recipe for disaster, in my opinion.

    Sorry Treva, not having a go at you just saw a subject that made me tell this story. Cheers!

  6. #56
    Active Member stmike 1800's Avatar
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    Ride your own ride and to H@LL with every one else.

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    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    Keep up, keep up be buggered. As you say AB, 'mostly great folks and a pleasure to be around' but there's usually one or two who aren't. I almost never ride in a group bigger than 5 for the reasons you mention. And as for keeping a safe distance...........?!?! One local died over Easter when 1 bike clipped another on a bend, one of em went to the wrong side into oncoming traffic.

    As for BRP and Treva - Either they, BRP, do not know the real problem or their customer service stinks. Possibly both. He got that right as has been seen time and time again over 10 years.
    The best substitute for brains is....................what?

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    That's not good for anyone, I would not be a happy camper either.
    Last edited by bikerbillone; 05-23-2019 at 06:21 AM. Reason: controversial

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerbillone View Post
    That's not good for anyone, I would not be a happy camper either. How can it take so long to get a part, Canada is right next door to America, jus sayin.
    Next door for Treva is New Guinea, New Zealand, and Antarctica, and then from what I hear it's a slow boat that runs from Valcourt, to Queensland

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    Good day Treva,

    Thank you for the update. We are sorry to hear about the delay in getting the requested part to the dealership.

    We would like to see if there is anything we can do to assist. Kindly send us an email at brp.care@brp.com or give us a call at 1-888-272-9222, including your unit’s VIN# so we can verify your account in our system.

    We look forward to hearing from you.

    Sincerely,

    Vanessa-BRPcare
    BRPcare
    Social Consumer Experience Team


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    Holy Christmas, I am impressed, go on another board and grumble about a legit problem, I have yet to see a 'corporate' respond. Whether this helps or not remains to be seen, still I am impressed.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRPcare View Post
    Good day Treva,

    Thank you for the update. We are sorry to hear about the delay in getting the requested part to the dealership.

    We would like to see if there is anything we can do to assist. Kindly send us an email at brp.care@brp.com or give us a call at 1-888-272-9222, including your unit’s VIN# so we can verify your account in our system.

    We look forward to hearing from you.

    Sincerely,

    Vanessa-BRPcare
    Im impressed too! keep it up BRP good to see. it is rare to have a company respond like this, better still if the response turns to results! These type of sites are the place for companies to gain information, real feedback on their products.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoSpyder View Post
    Next door for Treva is New Guinea, New Zealand, and Antarctica, and then from what I hear it's a slow boat that runs from Valcourt, to Queensland
    ....treva

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRPcare View Post
    Good day Treva,

    Thank you for the update. We are sorry to hear about the delay in getting the requested part to the dealership.

    We would like to see if there is anything we can do to assist. Kindly send us an email at brp.care@brp.com or give us a call at 1-888-272-9222, including your unit’s VIN# so we can verify your account in our system.

    We look forward to hearing from you.

    Sincerely,

    Vanessa-BRPcare
    I have sent an email to you. Thanks......Treva.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    Sorry to hear of your problems Treva and sorrier still more of your leaving the brand. i recently bought a 18 F3 LTD, you've probably seen my posts recently!

    If not, i have been on a learning curve on the handling side of things and have really started to enjoy the ride and still do but my confidence was shattered a day ago when i joined a group ride of over 50s riders [group will/shall remain nameless] for the day.

    I Was part of this group/club a year or two ago on two wheels and back then they were the quickest group of older riders i'd ridden with, good luck to them, mostly great folks and a pleasure to be around but i was always down the back with the 'tail-end charlie' not a problem apart from two things, a slight feeling of self-induced guilt about not keeping up, worse still a club member, on the pretence of being helpful, took me to one side and told me that for the sake of the group i must keep up!

    Now i wasn't going slow, around or just under the speed limit and taking corners with my skill levels but he's quick and he doesn't want to be held up!

    So i happened to come across the President the over day who invited me back to ride with them again, well lo and behold, the same fast member was still there and this day was leading the run, i was gobsmacked when he said in his pr-amble 'again fellas, keep up with the rider in front of you. Again i struggled to keep the pace and gave up in the end and went home. To top it all off this guy used to be a Police crash investigator, unbelievable!

    In all my years of riding i have never been told to keep up with anyone, the opposite is true ,take your time, run at your own pace. Even in my younger silly days on and in Sports Bike clubs.

    Everyone should ride at a pace that suits them fast or slow, it's there choice but telling people to ;keep up; is a recipe for disaster, in my opinion.

    Sorry Treva, not having a go at you just saw a subject that made me tell this story. Cheers!
    As others have said, ride at your own pace...Treva

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoSpyder View Post
    Next door for Treva is New Guinea, New Zealand, and Antarctica, and then from what I hear it's a slow boat that runs from Valcourt, to Queensland
    Just bought a Windshield from the garage on here, took 2 weeks, great service, why hasn't Treva got his part!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    Just bought a Windshield from the garage on here, took 2 weeks, great service, why hasn't Treva got his part!
    .....Treva

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
    Keep up, keep up be buggered. As you say AB, 'mostly great folks and a pleasure to be around' but there's usually one or two who aren't. I almost never ride in a group bigger than 5 for the reasons you mention. And as for keeping a safe distance...........?!?! One local died over Easter when 1 bike clipped another on a bend, one of em went to the wrong side into oncoming traffic.

    As for BRP and Treva - Either they, BRP, do not know the real problem or their customer service stinks. Possibly both. He got that right as has been seen time and time again over 10 years.
    Dead right Freddy, ride as you want and yes, always one or two around.

    AB,like that !might have to use that as a new moniker!

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    Been there and experience this on 2017 RTL - probably even have the stains in the jocks to prove it.

    Scenario 1: Chief cook and I were riding a country road negotiating a slow left-hander, not tight and no speed advisory. We were 4th in a group. Back brake locked the back wheel and the handlebars straightened. We coasted in this state for 5-5 meters into the oncoming lane and off the verge. While doing this I was trying to work out how I was going to try to avoid two large gum trees on the outside of the corner. Had any vehicle, especially one of the cattle trucks we had seen, been on the other lane neither of us would be here to reminisce. It frightened the hell out of the RT's following, and even the one in front who saw it happen in his rear view mirror having just negotiated the corner at the same speed on his 2016 RTL.

    Scenario 2 In a line of traffic travelling at 100Km/hr. I was following a truck who was maintaining speed up a small incline. Out of the blue VSS cut in and applied the back break. The car following me had to swerve into the center of the road to avoid hitting me and the one behind him swerved up the inside to avoid me too. No cruise control, no acceleration to warrant a loss of traction that would cause the ABS or VSS to cut in.

    Scenario 3 riding two up up the side of a hill and negotiated a Right hand turn with no speed advisory doing about 80km/hr on a 100km/hr limit road. Realized I was in too high a gear so dropped back a gear. Rear wheel locked up and handlebars straightened out, we were close to the center line and ended on the verge.

    Being still under warranty, I took it to the dealership where I bought the RT, having complained about odd handling before - was told "its the way they behave, they'd investigate for 1 hour but if I wanted it investigated further I'd have to pay"

    Took it to another dealership but didn't mention the issues. The tech took it for a test ride and came back - he was very diplomatic in his "WTF is going on with this thing?". He found
    1. The rear top shock mount had been assembled incorrectly and the bolt holding it was finger tight.
    2. The wheel alignment hadn't been done properly - leading to the VSS not being really sure what the hell was going on at any given time.

    When it came time for me to take the bike for a test ride - there was another 2017 RTL in for a service. I jumped on the spyder he said was mine and rode to the corner of the building (which was the showroom in front of the workshop). I stopped, got off the RTL and walked around to the Number plate - I did not think/believe I was on my RT - it was. It now felt nothing like it had in the 15000km I had owned it from new.

    While from time to time it still likes to lock the tail up and straighten the steering mid corner I now at least know I am pushing it a little too hard. Prior to this change I had no way of predicting when the VSS and back brake would cut in.

    For me it has me reconsidering again weather I should go back to two wheels as I fear it ever returning. I felt safer in the wet on any of my past two wheeled bikes and am looking at the Honda Goldwing. Like you I have raced and ridden MotoX, Sports Road, Tourers, Quads, undertaken MC training and spent a lot of time trying to figure out the safest way to enjoy the RTL.

    Below is the email I sent to the group GM of the dealership I bought mine from and will never return to until they get their act together.

    1st_Dealership = where I bought the RTL
    2nd_Dealership = where god works and fixed my RTL
    XXX XXXYY = Managers and techs involved.

    Hi Salesperson

    Feel free to use this information in a way you see fit. Apologies also for the “lengthiness” and I provide this as feedback.

    After the last visit to 1st_Dealership I wasn’t satisfied with the outcome to the issue with the VSS cutting in. I was told things which included “bumping the brake, the gear change, wheel slip, imperfections in the road”… to name a few were the cause. I sat in silence taking the information in and recall feeling this is ridiculous. The only issue found was the lead on the battery was loose causing an over-voltage condition. I admit with embarrassment that until that day I did not know where the battery was.

    I took the bike to 2nd_Dealership for the 15000k service and asked them to perform a wheel alignment, but made no mention of the VSS.

    In one day the tech addressed every issue the bike had.

    When at 1st_Dealership for the VSS Service Manager stated he’d spend no more than an hour on the bike and that I’d have to pay. XXXYYY mentioned also on the day that the bike was pulling to the left which was something I knew, it had done this since the ball joint replacement visit to 1st_Dealership. He suggested tyre pressures be amended to address the camber in the road. I knew it to be more than this. WSM found the wheel alignment appeared to have been done incorrectly and pointed out a range of issues this would cause, including crabbing, twitching (where the bike moves constantly from side to side when in a straight line), nervousness under brakes and VSS/Steering assist being confused about the actual positional state of the bike.

    2nd_Dealership also found that the rear shock mount had been assembled incorrectly, and the bolt or pin securing it was not tight, the nut was only finger tight. Lesser issues observed was that the Left mirror mount was broken and a rubber mounting grommet had not been refitted, panels I have never needed to remove were incorrectly fitted. There was more but I think you get the picture

    They started at 08:00, the tech then I test rode the bike at 17:00 – I could not believe it was the same bike. I rode the driveway and stopped, got off the bike, checked the rego plate to confirm I hadn’t had a practical joke played on me. It handles as good as the 2018 model you kindly lent me and any other RT Ltd belonging to Spyder riders in the region that I have ridden as a comparison. I rode home via the putty in atrocious conditions and the bike did not falter in any way. It was confidence inspiring to ride and showed confidence in its ability to handle the average road conditions.

    I have no doubt 1st_Dealership felt I was inadequate at portraying or misguided in interpreting the issues I was raising – but now have been vindicated by 2nd_Dealership. It was the most reassuring event to have the mechanic communicate a number of issues that I had always assumed would never be addressed.

    I don’t know why my experience has been this way with 1st_Dealership Service Dept. I have :
    • given feedback,
    • and importantly tried to ensure my own actions weren’t the sole factor behind a problem,
    • felt that the history we were building would lead to a good outcome eventually though persistence (I understand some problems take time to resolve)
    • returned to the workshop when many in the region were scathing in their opinion at my persistence.
    in my mind there are possibilities, some I can accept, but the ones that have seen my wife and I risking our lives on an unsafe bike twice due to it lunging and the unpredictability of the VSS requiring my constant harassment of 1st_Dealership are not.

    Having managed teams in IT, NSW Fire Brigade and 30 odd staff when supervising a team of Tradesmen in my time at LPS, I see some issues that need attention:
    • Techs minimising distraction when working on the bikes (forgetting to finish the shock mount).
    • Techs checking their work to ensure the machine is returned in a safe state (ensuring all fittings are secured properly).
    • Factory Trained Techs ensuring the full process recommended by BRP is followed to its fullest (wheel alignment procedure not fully adhered to).
    • Trusting that the rider is not trying to con the workshop and that their experience on the machine is fully considered (VSS behaviour).
    • Have the techs gain more experience on the Spyders so that they can legitimise issues reported by the client. I suspect often the issues are deemed to be normal behaviour by the techs when more familiarity would ensure they know the product well enough to recognise issues.
    • That advice given is consistent.
    • That advice given is safe (it was advised to me at 1st_Dealership to “run the rear tyre to almost bald because all the safety systems are going to keep you safe”.) I think we both know VSS will never address a situation where a tyre is unable to get any grip.

    I hold no blame at XXXXX – he isn’t a BRP tech, and is less familiar with the product than that witnessed at 2nd_Dealership.

    You and XXX have been tremendous and you especially have been a great help, mentor and friend. As mentioned when I rode the 2018 loaner – I considered twice asking for a changeover price, but reflected that I would still be locked into using the workshop there. I am in the position now that my safety and satisfaction must come first and will not return to 1st_Dealership until there is proof the environment at 1st_Dealership Service Dep’t changes for the better. In the event that it does I know personally a great number of Spyder riders in the region who would return to 1st_Dealership.

    I hope you have a happy and safe Xmas/New Year. My wife and I are heading away for a week on the Spyder possibly to Vic. and S.A. with what amounts to a new machine. I still have you to thank for “wooing me” to the product and the enjoyment it now provides.

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    My goodness askitee, 3 times and you are still here to tell the tale. You are a lot gamer than me. Someone is definitely looking after you. I certainly won't be riding my bike until the problem has been fully diagnosed and rectified. This is a serious safety issue and I never want to experience another rear wheel lock up.......Treva

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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    Just bought a Windshield from the garage on here, took 2 weeks, great service, why hasn't Treva got his part!
    Quote Originally Posted by treva View Post
    .....Treva
    It's an excellent question, Air Canada has a flight from Montreal to Brisbane 21h 55m, allow a few more days for customs and some local transport time and it should be a done deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoSpyder View Post
    It's an excellent question, Air Canada has a flight from Montreal to Brisbane 21h 55m, allow a few more days for customs and some local transport time and it should be a done deal.
    Something has stalled the part transfer process, and I'm fairly sure I know why. Diagnosing an electronic lockup is a few steps towards '' rocket science''.... Treva

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    Askites, Wow! jock strainer for sure! It would stop me riding my bike. Well done for surviving 3 attempts on your life and the tenacity to pursue through to a good result.

    I Guess all's well that ends well but what a story, in depth and well told!

    One thing to come out of this is how important it is to have a good dealer and how bad it is to have a crap one. Our machines are not as straightforward as a lot of others and should have specialist care and attention it seems but the training, experience and most importantly the right attitude must be there, in your case Dealer 2 sounds good.

    I kinda worried about my dealer, very friendly, easy-going but proficient, i hope so.

    it's only 30 km away [next on is 400 km away] i wonder how good the tech is and does he do the right thing all the time. Time will tell i suppose. Don't suppose your Dealer 2 is opening a franchise in Australia's 'deep south', is he! Whatever hes got we should bottle it.

    Anyway, glad to hear its all sorted and hope your Spyder future carries on positively.

  24. #74
    Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
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    I'm going to throw out a comment that may be totally alien to some, some may have way more knowledge than me about it and be able to expound. We are all riding on the algorithm. The Spyder is computer controlled, and in some cases autonomously. I'd really like to see the actual findings in this case. It applies to all of us, in some way or another.

    In the industry I worked in, I&E automation ran almost everything. Based on a hazard's identified danger to destroy or kill, and probability of an incident happening, IEC 61508/61511, SIL #1 through #4 dictated what type of control was mandated. A really bad thing that almost never happens gets a low SIL rating, and minimal control systems. A really bad thing that happens often gets a high SIL rating, sometimes mandating redundancy of control. Gibberish, I know, but let me continue.

    Back to the Spyder. G force sensors, wheel speed sensors, yaw sensors, so many sensors and electronics. How many sensors have to agree before autonomous braking is applied? The wheel sensors appear to be Hall switches, either to an amplitude measurement input or high speed counter. To be safe, it should probably be a circuit with a built in design safety, commonly called closed loop. Some kind of reference signal (12 VDC), that if lost, causes the safe shutdown (Limp Mode) without causing an unsafe action (Full Braking Application). What if the one sensor that causes this kind of action fails in such a mode that it thinks it's OK, no loss of the feedback loop? If it's a single point measurement system (Low SIL Rating), then you get this kind of situation.

    I'd really like to know what they find.
    h0gr1der
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  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by h0gr1der View Post
    I'm going to throw out a comment that may be totally alien to some, some may have way more knowledge than me about it and be able to expound. We are all riding on the algorithm. The Spyder is computer controlled, and in some cases autonomously. I'd really like to see the actual findings in this case. It applies to all of us, in some way or another.

    In the industry I worked in, I&E automation ran almost everything. Based on a hazard's identified danger to destroy or kill, and probability of an incident happening, IEC 61508/61511, SIL #1 through #4 dictated what type of control was mandated. A really bad thing that almost never happens gets a low SIL rating, and minimal control systems. A really bad thing that happens often gets a high SIL rating, sometimes mandating redundancy of control. Gibberish, I know, but let me continue.

    Back to the Spyder. G force sensors, wheel speed sensors, yaw sensors, so many sensors and electronics. How many sensors have to agree before autonomous braking is applied? The wheel sensors appear to be Hall switches, either to an amplitude measurement input or high speed counter. To be safe, it should probably be a circuit with a built in design safety, commonly called closed loop. Some kind of reference signal (12 VDC), that if lost, causes the safe shutdown (Limp Mode) without causing an unsafe action (Full Braking Application). What if the one sensor that causes this kind of action fails in such a mode that it thinks it's OK, no loss of the feedback loop? If it's a single point measurement system (Low SIL Rating), then you get this kind of situation.

    I'd really like to know what they find.
    I know where you're coming from hogr1der, and the list of inquiring minds gets longer by the day seeking the cause of the l/up. ...Treva

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