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Thread: Frightening

  1. #76
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    HI h0gr1der,

    Sounds like one of my theories when mine was playing up. I explained it seemed as if the VSS was getting conflicting signals.

    I wondered if:
    : A sensor was connected with incorrect polarity.
    : Sensors needed calibrating ( eg a 50'ft diameter fan where sensors at either end of the shaft determine if the vibration is at one end or central. the sensors had to be calibrated to make sure their readings were identical in their default state or adjusted for manufacturing differences).
    : A sensor was left disconnected.
    : In VSS there needed to be adjustments to sensor sensitivity that hadn't been looked at (they spent a month dealing with the RTL lunging and found a defective balljoint)

    The day I took my RTL to the shop where I bought it, I asked some straight questions of the Service Manager - he just glazed over. After about 10mins I could see he had no idea what I was talking about and could not explain in any detail how the process works in specific situations. It was too easy for him to blame me, road conditions, riding style.

    I still have strong reservations about the way VSS straightens the steering completely rather than minor adjustments if it needs to react. There is no way for the rider to react/address short of praying no one is coming in the opposite direction. I LOVE so many aspects of the RTL, but this sole issue nags at me each time it cuts in. Having ridden two wheelers for so long I knew what to do in situations, having developed my skills over hundreds of thousands of KM's riding in all and any weather.

    I am active in the regional riding scene, active on Social media assisting others where I can, but at present I am weighing up whether I should go back to something like a Goldwing where I could trust the machine. Car/Truck/bus drivers do enought to try to take us out - we sure as heck dont need another reason stemming from some bad tech choices to add to the list!!

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by h0gr1der View Post
    I'm going to throw out a comment that may be totally alien to some, some may have way more knowledge than me about it and be able to expound. We are all riding on the algorithm. The Spyder is computer controlled, and in some cases autonomously. I'd really like to see the actual findings in this case. It applies to all of us, in some way or another.

    In the industry I worked in, I&E automation ran almost everything. Based on a hazard's identified danger to destroy or kill, and probability of an incident happening, IEC 61508/61511, SIL #1 through #4 dictated what type of control was mandated. A really bad thing that almost never happens gets a low SIL rating, and minimal control systems. A really bad thing that happens often gets a high SIL rating, sometimes mandating redundancy of control. Gibberish, I know, but let me continue.

    Back to the Spyder. G force sensors, wheel speed sensors, yaw sensors, so many sensors and electronics. How many sensors have to agree before autonomous braking is applied? The wheel sensors appear to be Hall switches, either to an amplitude measurement input or high speed counter. To be safe, it should probably be a circuit with a built in design safety, commonly called closed loop. Some kind of reference signal (12 VDC), that if lost, causes the safe shutdown (Limp Mode) without causing an unsafe action (Full Braking Application). What if the one sensor that causes this kind of action fails in such a mode that it thinks it's OK, no loss of the feedback loop? If it's a single point measurement system (Low SIL Rating), then you get this kind of situation.

    I'd really like to know what they find.
    Hmmm. Not sure what all that means but I can understand the idea you are suggesting. So... yes we need to know what is going on here.

  3. #78
    Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie Peter Aawen's Avatar
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    Re these odd issues, especially the kept going straight ahead one (who's was that?), the VSS was developed by BOSCH and is waaay up there with the best in the world, so I don't think there's any significant inherent problems, altho the sensor connection/disconnection concerns may well be of concern wrt what's happened to a few ryders now

    That said, as has been noted by some, the VSS is fed info/readings from a whole raftload of sensors & devices, incĺuding the DPS, so it can adjust it's response aimed at keeping the Spyder upright & not spinning; a response that can vary the rapidity & strength of steering input (but not reverse it nor completely cancel it out!) and that includes the application of one or more brake calipers a little or a lot, all in order to help you head in the direction the VSS 'sees' you trying to turn, and at the same time applying the brakes as & when necessary to mitigate any steering or other input that's potentially going to cause a flip or spin. The VSS takes notice of what you are doing on the brakes & throttle and also reads both the direction you're turning and the speed/pressure of that turning effort when it's 'deciding' what to do, and it can then either reduce or enhance that directional change depending on all the inputs, especially how hard & how quickly you've fed that steering change in, something that can be pretty handy at times!! If you haul very quickly and hard on one side of the bar, like you would if the car immediately in front of you literally stopped dead on the road just a few yards in front of you, the VSS can pretty much help you make an 'at speed' tiny radius 90 degree turn faster than a fighter jet in order to avoid, and without flipping or spinning too!! It really is that bloody good!

    But knowing that, you also need to be aware that it will also react to those tiny 'involuntary' or possibly even 'subliminal' twitches that many people make in their steering control inputs, especially those coming off years of 2-wheeled riding with all the muscle memory that entails, just before they make the conciously controlled 'correct for a Spyder' steering reaction. These little twitches can happen well before your concious reaction kicks in & well (in terms of milli-seconds) before you can actually apply the necessary gross motor controlled movements required to avoid on a Spyder rather than those exactly wrong 2-wheel derived muscle memory twitches that the VSS may have already read and reacted to in the milli-seconds before you conciously evaded!! I think that these 'involuntary muscle memory twitches' might be at least partially to blame for the 'uneasiness & wandering' that many 'new to Spyders but not to 2 wheelers' type riders experience & some complain about, and I'm wondering if muscle memory driven 'reactive twitches' had any involvement in that 'going straight ahead' incident?!? The VSS can and will react to sudden steering input far faster than you can think, especially if the input is rapid & hard, just like it would be if you were shocked enough for muscle memory twitches to occur before you could conciously stop them happening and actively steer the right way! Maybe the involuntary twitch reaction that was the opposite of the concious minds avoidance reaction worked to confuse the VSS response or they pretty much cancelled each other out, at least to some degree....

    Still, I'm more inclined to think we should be searching for one (or more?) incorrectly fitted or disconnected sensors rather than hunting for an inherent issue with the VSS, and once we've ruled any dud connection or sensor issues out, I'd think it might be worth our time to look at how your actions/reactions may have been interpreted by the VSS to see if there's something in what you do/did that's causing a reaction that's not quite what you'd normally expect. I've been lucky enough to do some closed-road & skid-pan testing on this & was horrified to see how much & how quickly my Spyder responded to my involuntary 'muscle memory' reactions before I could conciously apply the neccesary Spyder control inputs needed. It's not something that's really going to have a great impact on anyone's daily ryding, probably won't even be an issue when we make a 'normal' evasion manoeuvre, but when it's an 'all out balls to the wall' type panic manoeuvre, those 'muscle memory' twitches that we've laboured so hard at developing over the last decades of 2-wheeled riding now need to be refined & in some cases, reversed to remain safe for Spyder Ryding!

    Over to you all?!!
    Last edited by Peter Aawen; 05-24-2019 at 10:42 PM.
    2013 RT Ltd

  4. #79
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    Well Pete, that nice long post of yours really clarifies the situation for treva I'm sure.

    Short version: the machine does not handle as it should.
    The best substitute for brains is....................what?

  5. #80
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    Hi Peter, I could read all sorts of innuendos regarding your post. If and I repeat If it was aimed at me, I'll say it again, the lockup was not caused by any input [ ''muscle memory twitches'' ] from myself.... Treva

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
    Well Pete, that nice long post of yours really clarifies the situation for treva I'm sure.

    Short version: the machine does not handle as it should.
    Freddy, I couldn't agree more...Treva

  7. #82
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    Finally after 5 + weeks in the dealers workshop, I picked up my RT today & rode it home. Took the long way & it performed as expected, ie; no problems.
    Had a good chat to the service manager & tech before leaving. I know they did their very best to sort out the problem. BRP's involvement diagnosing the problem was beneficial. Time wise, the supply of parts has been the major problem.
    The list below explains what they found and the action taken:-
    1. Connected to BUDS & found fault codes C1290, P0500, P2806, C006C.
    2. Performed the service action for each fault code.
    3. Removed and replaced vehicle control module as directed by BRP.
    4. Removed and replaced ignition switch as directed by BRP.
    5. Removed and replaced wheel speed sensors as directed by BRP.
    6. Performed 2 x road tests with different technicians. [ safety in numbers!!! ha ha ]

    Although they didn't find the actual reason for the lockup, I'm pretty sure all bases have been covered. Time will tell. Now to convince the wife.

  8. #83
    Active Member Airborne's Avatar
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    Good luck to you Treva, on all counts!

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne View Post
    Good luck to you Treva, on all counts!
    Thanks Airborne. So much going on electronically when on the move, complications can happen. Hopefully that is a thing of the past....treva.

  10. #85
    Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
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    Mr. Treva,

    Many thanks for following up on this. The replacement of the wheel sensors and VCM tells an interesting tale. So apparently if you lose contact with a wheel speed sensor, or the VCM thinks something is off (failure mode), the computer will take "appropriate" action. So much for redundant safety. Hopefully BRP has the real facts and implements a firmware upgrade to mitigate the possibility of this.

    C1290, P0500, weren't listed in either my 2018 or 2019 manual. Anyone know what this is?

    P2806, was listed as gear position sensor outside of parameters.

    C006C, was listed as VCM error or failure.
    h0gr1der
    2018 RT Limited Blue/Chrome SE6 *Tri-Axis Bars*Adjustable Driver Backrest*175/55R15 Vredestein Front, 205/60R15 Vredestein Rear Tires*Baja Ron Front Spring Pre-Load Adjusters*Roadster Renovations Vibration Damper*Misty Mountain Sheepskin seat cover*Centramatic balancers *Garmin Zumo 595LM GPS
    States Visited on Less than 4 wheels.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by h0gr1der View Post
    Mr. Treva,

    Many thanks for following up on this. The replacement of the wheel sensors and VCM tells an interesting tale. So apparently if you lose contact with a wheel speed sensor, or the VCM thinks something is off (failure mode), the computer will take "appropriate" action. So much for redundant safety. Hopefully BRP has the real facts and implements a firmware upgrade to mitigate the possibility of this.

    C1290, P0500, weren't listed in either my 2018 or 2019 manual. Anyone know what this is?

    P2806, was listed as gear position sensor outside of parameters.

    C006C, was listed as VCM error or failure.
    Hello hogr1der, I feel it a sense of duty to let others know the outcome. I may be wrong but i think BRP in their wisdom threw a heap of parts at the dealer based on the list of codes. As you're stated i also hope BRP has the real facts..... I've just returned from a long ride by myself & it performed beautifully...treva

  12. #87
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    I have experienced the Nanny and VSS. I drive "spirted" on the mountain curves of the Sierra Nevada, when NOT leading a group. When I ride the bike I travel to work 45 miles through these mountains my commute puts any tail of the serpent ride to shame. I have lifted a front wheel repeatedly and felt the bike correct itself without locking up. I run EBC all around pads and rotors. I have had the rear wheel lose traction within a curve and had to drift to maintain control. Sometimes the VSS kicks in sometimes not. Drive within your bikes comfort zone and not while two up. The passenger NEVER will have the response time holding on, your in control. Check your rear brakes I mean really check them for any foreign objects, small rocks are the killer. I wore down the inside of my original stock rotor, scored it beyond repair and had to replace. It just made a small squeal when brakes were applied like it was dirty I ignored it for a 1000 miles before I saw the damage. I actually didn't see the damage as it was on the inside I ran my fingers over it and felt the deep scoring. In summary the bike wheels have NEVER locked up like you are describing get your bike checked out soon.

  13. #88
    Very Active Member Freddy's Avatar
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    He did - see reply 82.
    The best substitute for brains is....................what?

  14. #89
    Active Member stmike 1800's Avatar
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    That is some scary sh@t . I do not know if i could or would ride a spyder again ,makes me think some of the parts came off a MAX 8 plane.

  15. #90
    Active Member h0gr1der's Avatar
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    That's what I'm trying to get a sense of, the actual risk involved with the Spyder. When I first boarded Spyderlovers, I read a post from a guy departing the Spyder world because of just his kind of incident. His bike locked up and slung him off, I think it hurt him, so he was quitting. I can't find that post again, my search mojo isn't great enough.

    Mr. Treva's rear wheel locked up, and BRP replaced the VCM and wheel sensors. I feel losing one of the front wheel sensors, and having the opposite front wheel lock up at the wrong time is possibly the worst case scenario (loss of steering control), possibly dragging you into oncoming traffic or over the cliff in the mountains.

    I also know that the risk of this is fairly low, because the Spyder world isn't screaming it out all over the Internet. But, at the same time, the consequences of a failure are so high it may be worth a more in-depth review by the NTSB or other agency to see how many actual cases of this are occurring. A certain automobile company tried to hide and deny their "unintended acceleration", even though this company had a major portion the incidents of unintended acceleration in the world slated to it, and at least one death attributed to it. Don't believe for a second that any major corporation won't deny, delay,defend for the bottom line.

    My Spyder runs and drives fine, no problems here. But this scenario rides with me. Is there any corrosion building in a leaky wiring connection? Input point on a computer going bad? Wire rubbing where is shouldn't? Makes you wonder.
    h0gr1der
    2018 RT Limited Blue/Chrome SE6 *Tri-Axis Bars*Adjustable Driver Backrest*175/55R15 Vredestein Front, 205/60R15 Vredestein Rear Tires*Baja Ron Front Spring Pre-Load Adjusters*Roadster Renovations Vibration Damper*Misty Mountain Sheepskin seat cover*Centramatic balancers *Garmin Zumo 595LM GPS
    States Visited on Less than 4 wheels.

  16. #91
    Very Active Member Lew L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldminer View Post
    I drive "spirted" on the mountain curves of the Sierra Nevada, when NOT leading a group. When I ride the bike I travel to work 45 miles through these mountains my commute puts any tail of the serpent ride to shame.
    Say Goldminer,

    I've been riding the Sierra passes for for a long time on both 2 and 3 wheels. Which roads do you speak of that put the " tail of the dragon " to shame?????? Hwy's 4 and 108 come to mind. Hwy's 49 and 431 ( I live on Mt. Rose Highway) maybe. Even 341 and 6 Mile canyon in the Carson range. These roads that are in our backyards may compare to the "Dragon" but they certainly don't put it to shame?????
    In response to the OP--- Nanny has intervened plenty of times but NEVER locked the brakes.

    And yes I've ridden the " Dragon " in No. Carolina but on 2 wheels. Great fun

    Lew L
    Last edited by Lew L; 06-18-2019 at 09:52 AM. Reason: speeling
    Kaos----- Gone but not forgotten.

    2014 RTS in circuit yellow, farkeling addiction down to once every few months.ECU FLASH IS GREAT.

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