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  1. #51
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    It goes back to Minimum Requirements vs Optimal Options. Yes, you can run ethanol fuel with an octane rating as low as 87 in the Ryker. The ECU is designed to compensate for the less than optimal octane component. But if you want optimal performance you will need to use Premium Octane fuel. And, knowing the attributes of both fuel types. Using non-ethanol fuel will give you the best results. It's simply a matter of physics. You just can't change physical realities with opinions.

    However, the next potential fly in the ointment and legitimate question is, how much difference will using optimal fuel make over using the minimum requirement fuel? This is where the factual debate lies.
    It will be small and not actually noticeable, really. Not worth the hefty price difference.

  2. #52
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen47 View Post
    It will be small and not actually noticeable, really. Not worth the hefty price difference.
    I would love to see documentation on this. The physics are there. The rest is speculation and opinion until someone takes the time to do some research. Otherwise, BRP is simply recommending premium fuel to increase the cost of owning a Ryker.

    Not saying you're wrong. Just saying...
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  3. #53
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    I would love to see documentation on this. The physics are there. The rest is speculation and opinion until someone takes the time to do some research. Otherwise, BRP is simply recommending premium fuel to increase the cost of owning a Ryker.

    Not saying you're wrong. Just saying...
    They are not actually recommending premium They are recommending 87, but saying it is "OK" to use premium, just to satisfy every customer.

    They would have said to use premium, and that using 87 was "OK", if that was the best way to go.

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    You left out one vary important one. Is the wind to your back or in your face.

    Quote Originally Posted by oregoncoast View Post
    Some years ago there were several studies on using higher octane. Not being sure what I was reading I was using 91, until I realized it only required 87 on re-reading the manual. The studies basically said using higher octane than required was a waste of money. The Ryker manual is poorly written and vague about several things. I am frugal but not cheap, spending more on gas than I need to is just a waste of money for myself.
    And of course each person can make there own decision on what to use. On one trip I got got exceptional mpg, but it was a warm day and I was at a t study 40 mph. I think weather and humidity and winter vs summer gas has a big impact on mpg and not octane. When someone says "optimal" without explaining what it means I tend to ignore it.
    Can Am 2013 RTL SE5

  5. #55
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    That's only If they have a knock sensor. Did the 2013, 998's have knock sensors ? Do the 1330's have knock sensors ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JS3535 View Post
    Can Am 2013 RTL SE5

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypurone View Post
    Well, technically yes but in reality, using the higher octane allows the ECM to use a different timing map (more advancement) without detonation. Which will in fact give better performance by accessing all available power the engine has at any given load....
    Does it really? What is the knock sensor Part number?
    Can Am 2013 RTL SE5

  7. #57
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen47 View Post
    They are not actually recommending premium They are recommending 87, but saying it is "OK" to use premium, just to satisfy every customer.

    They would have said to use premium, and that using 87 was "OK", if that was the best way to go.
    I draw your attention to the last line, bottom left of this web page.

    https://can-am.brp.com/content/dam/c...heet_EN_LR.pdf
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  8. #58
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    I have to disagree. Thats a marketing piece, not a recommendation. The operators manual says to use 87 octane.

  9. #59
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    To my knowledge, the only engines that will benefit from using higher octane gas is those that are higher compression, use forced induction, and experience knock with regular gas. There should be no gain in performance, gas mileage, or engine life otherwise. My Audi is turboed along with being modified and tuned. It’s setup to run on 93, if I tried to run it on 87 it would run like you know what lol. Before modifications I’ve run it on both 87 and 93 and there was a difference! Under boost on 87 the car seemed to hesitate while running on 93 she was smooth and linear. My older car wasn’t turbo and there was no difference at all regardless what I put in it. I’ve seen tests (I’m sure this can be found on YouTube) on the cleaning properties of 87 vs 93 octane and the higher octane gas with the added detergents do clean a good amount better. In my car though due to how it’s injected, the valves will get carbon build up no matter what and will require manual cleaning between 30-60k miles.

  10. #60
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djdilliodon View Post
    I’ve seen tests (I’m sure this can be found on YouTube) on the cleaning properties of 87 vs 93 octane and the higher octane gas with the added detergents do clean a good amount better.
    "It's true that premium gas does contain special or extra detergents, but in our opinion they're of no additional benefit. ... These days, all of the gasoline from the major gas companies contain more than enough detergents to keep your engine clean. Period."

    https://www.cartalk.com/content/premium-vs-regular-0

  11. #61
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KyBill View Post
    I have to disagree. Thats a marketing piece, not a recommendation. The operators manual says to use 87 octane.
    That is not just a marketing piece. The marketing people go to the engineers when they are making a spec. sheet. That page is giving just the optimum fuel octane recommendation without the additional information contained in the owner's manual which also lists minimum octane requirements.

    I don't mean to be argumentative. However, I am going to post just once more in the hope that others are looking for a final, fact based answer to this discussion.

    When you say that 'The operators manual says to use 87 octane', (found on page 37 as your original post accurately references). Admittedly, the statement could have been better worded to make their intention more clear. But the meaning here is NOT that you SHOULD use 87 octane fuel. Instead, it is giving 87 octane fuel as the lower limit which MAY safely be used in the Ryker. Put another way. You should NOT use fuel with an octane rating below 87.

    The manual then goes on to clearly indicate 91 as the optimal fuel octane for which this engine was designed to operate most efficiently. Be careful not to read the heading 'Recommended Fuel' into the following paragraph. It is simply designating that the following information gives both the minimum and optimal fuel parameters. The owner can then make a decision as to which way they want to go with their Ryker.

    Here is the entire text of what is given on Page 37 of the BRP, Can-Am Ryker owner's manual

    Recommended Fuel

    Use regular unleaded gasoline with a
    minimum AKI (RON+MON)/2 octane
    rating of 87, or an RON octane rating of
    92.

    For optimal performance, use premium unleaded gasoline with an AKI
    (RON+MON)/2 octane rating of 91, or
    an RON octane rating of 95.


    I think the manufacturer assumes most will want to operate their vehicle with optimal recommendations. Yet they understand that some may want to go with minimum requirements or not have higher octane fuels available to them. For these owners, BRP wisely gave a lower parameter (87 octane) which should not be exceeded.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 05-20-2019 at 05:08 PM.
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  12. #62
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    I agree that the operators manual could be worded better. My other bikes manual clearly states to use premium gas rated 93.

    I would bet the engineers gave accurate information to marketing and marketing either didn’t understand it or added spin they thought would sell. Marketing info also indicates a rider capacity of 1 yet Can Am sells a two up spring for the 900 Rally and has an interlock to prevent Rally mode if passenger foot pegs are deployed....... wires get crossed in translation between departments all the time.

    For myself, I use premium in all my bikes and my zero turn, but not my Toyota mini van. I have lots of confidence in the Toyota, all the others have yet to prove themselves.

  13. #63
    Active Member bcraig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KyBill View Post
    I have to disagree. Thats a marketing piece, not a recommendation. The operators manual says to use 87 octane.
    This is page 142 from the manual. Not the recommended octane rating.

    Untitled.jpg

  14. #64
    Very Active Member hypurone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wingit3611 View Post
    Does it really? What is the knock sensor Part number?
    420664031 which is for my Spyder and a few others (2016 F3 2017 F3 2018 F3 S SM6 SE6 2018 F3 SE6 2018 F3 SE6 2018 F3 T SE6 2015 ) your part number may vary and you can always look it up online at places like CheapCycle Parts etc. They actually call it a "noise sensor".... That enough info for ya?

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  15. #65
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    The absolute bottom line basic truism, is if your engine does NOT ping, add'l anti-ping chemical does absolutely and positively NOTHING (at all).

    The most prudent thing to do, is run your tank really low, then fill up with 87. If no pinging whatsoever, you are ALREADY experiencing "optimal performance". If significant pinging, try mid grade gas. The most likely place for pinging in any engine is at sea level. Other altitudes, not so much.

  16. #66
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen47 View Post
    The absolute bottom line basic truism, is if your engine does NOT ping, add'l anti-ping chemical does absolutely and positively NOTHING (at all).

    The most prudent thing to do, is run your tank really low, then fill up with 87. If no pinging whatsoever, you are ALREADY experiencing "optimal performance". If significant pinging, try mid grade gas. The most likely place for pinging in any engine is at sea level. Other altitudes, not so much.
    As mentioned before. The ECU is designed to prevent any 'Ping'. This is accomplished by retarding ignition timing which reduces power and efficiency. The ECU does this seamlessly and quite subtly. You are not going to notice some sudden or drastic loss of power. Seat of the pants, you will probably never notice.

    So, not only is listening for 'Ping' a waste of time on the Ryker or the Spyder for that matter. If you could actually hear 'Pinging' there is a very good chance that you are already doing damage to your engine. The negative effects of too low octane begin long before you can hear anything. It may well be that the ECU cannot compensate for octane lower than 87, thus the recommended lower limit given by BRP.

    I totally support your use of whatever octane fuel you choose to put into you Ryker. Not a problem at all. Nor am I saying it will hurt anything or even that it is a bad idea. I do, however, think it important that everyone know the consequences of doing so. To recommend a less than optimal octane to others as 'Optimal', supported by faulty information is not doing anyone a favor.

    A lot of people read these posts looking for good, reliable information. Those of us who post 'Recommendations' have an obligation to be accurate and factual.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcraig View Post
    This is page 142 from the manual. Not the recommended octane rating.

    Untitled.jpg
    Another excellent source of octane information. This one is actually clearer than the one sighted on page 37. It not only clarifies the page 37 info. But agrees with it as well. Great find and very helpful!
    Last edited by BajaRon; 05-17-2019 at 08:19 PM.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcraig View Post
    This is page 142 from the manual. Not the recommended octane rating.

    Untitled.jpg
    You are right, somehow I missed that.

  18. #68
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    Anyone know the compression ratio on the 600 and 900?

  19. #69
    Active Member Zoot's Avatar
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    OK, besides the octane issue (or non-issue), it used to be that Premium gas had a better additive package (detergents, etc.) than Regular gas.
    At least, that was the case a couple of decades ago when I worked in an oil refinery.

  20. #70
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    Compression ratio on Ryker is 11:1. Doesn't that call for 91oct even though book sez 87?
    "IT'S BETTER TO BE SHOT OUT OF A CANNON THAN SQUEEZED OUT OF A TUBE"-Dr. HS Thompson

  21. #71
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CENTAUR View Post
    Compression ratio on Ryker is 11:1. Doesn't that call for 91oct even though book sez 87?
    Not necessarily! Compression is only one leg of a 3-legged stool. The other two legs are spark and fuel injection timing. In the bad ole days of carburetors, premium was needed much more often, as the was no such thing as injection timing.

    A possible 4th leg could be valve timing, for engines with VVT.

  22. #72
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Stand corrected. Since we can no longer delete a post, error pulled.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 05-21-2019 at 07:27 AM.
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  23. #73
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    Additives and detergents in gasoline are solely up to each company and have nothing to do with premium or regular. Top tier gas has specific requirements so buy that and you will be good. Premium for me though.

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    I think its funny that my 18 year old honda lawn mower was always hard starting and has some combustion misses while running on the alcohol/gas mix gasoline. Then i heard that if you mixed some water into the gasoline in a liter bottle, then shook it up and let it set until the gas became clear, the water would combine with the alcohol and separate from the gas. Then you pour the gas out and get rid of the water( i use most of the water /alcohol mix to clean parts with so it usually evaps off my concrete driveway). I figured why not try it and Guess what! The honda now starts on the first pull every time now, the missing is gone when running, and the mower doesn't act any different in the power(seat of the pants judgement). I might try the same experiment with my Ryker, but the only problem i see is the Ryker is designed to run the alcohol/gas blend gasoline. So i am hesitating on this for now. However I do like how the lawn mower runs now.

  25. #75
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    I run my Ryker on straight gasoline. Runs great. Starts great too. Though I'd say it will do the same thing on ethanol.
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