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  1. #26
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    You wrote that ethanol has more energy than gasoline. Is that what you believe or did you miswrite? Ethanol has 30% LESS energy than gasoline.
    OBVIOUSLY I miswrote, as I clearly stated that you get lower MPG with ethanol added fuel, but that the large cost difference between the two fuels is not worth the slight fuel economy increase of non-ethanol fuel.

    10% ethanol fuel would mean you get 3% lower MPG.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    I did over 50 fill-ups on my trip to California and back for the data I present. Mostly highway miles with cruise control set.

    Here is what Wikipedia says about the Ethanol to Gasoline comparison (which is pretty typical of what you'll find from other sources).

    Wikipedia
    "1.5 gallons of ethanol has the same energy content as 1.0 gallon of gasoline. A flex-fuel vehicle will experience about 76% of the fuel mileage MPG when using E85 (85% ethanol) products as compared to 100% gasoline. ... Pure ethanol provides 2/3 of the heat value available in pure gasoline."

    And ethanol is definitely NOT cheaper than gasoline. It costs a fair amount more to produce 1 gallon of ethanol than it does to produce 1 gallon of gasoline. The difference in price comes from your tax dollars subsidizing ethanol so that it APPEARS less expensive because the price at the pump is less. But the total price being paid is higher (part of the total cost being hidden because it's being removed from another pocket).

    Then you have the billions of dollars of damage done to vehicle components because of ethanol, the short storage time, ethanol's affinity for water, etc., none of it good. So, we are using a more expensive, yet inferior product.

    We are told that ethanol pollutes less than gasoline. And that is true if you just look at the tail pipe pollution produced by both. But when you take into consideration the entire process of planting, fertilizing, processing and transporting ethanol, it is not clear at all that there is an overall pollution advantage.

    110%

  3. #28
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAS POWER View Post
    110%
    Me too, 210%!!! If you burned 1.5 gallons of PURE ethanol, your vehicle would go as far as if you burned 1.0 gallons of regular gasoline.

    But if you burn regular 10% ethanol gasoline, it has a FACTOR OF 10 difference in effect; You need to burn 1.05 gallons of 10% ethanol fuel to go as far as 1.0 gallons of pure gasoline.

    Like I said and is a basic truism: the much higher cost of non-ethanol fuel is NOT worth the slight increase in MPG!

  4. #29
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen47 View Post
    Me too, 210%!!! If you burned 1.5 gallons of PURE ethanol, your vehicle would go as far as if you burned 1.0 gallons of regular gasoline.

    But if you burn regular 10% ethanol gasoline, it has a FACTOR OF 10 difference in effect; You need to burn 1.05 gallons of 10% ethanol fuel to go as far as 1.0 gallons of pure gasoline.

    Like I said and is a basic truism: the much higher cost of non-ethanol fuel is NOT worth the slight increase in MPG!
    I just don't see this 'Trusim' when you look at the entire picture. Because the total cost to the consumer is higher for ethanol than it is for pure gasoline.

    I think the important question here is; 'Why are we using ethanol fuel to begin with?'

    Because ethanol fuels costs less? Only at the pump. We are actually paying more for ethanol fuel than for straight gasoline when you consider the total cost. This is exactly why the government intentionally hides the actual cost by subsidizing ethanol fuel with tax money. If the true cost of ethanol fuel were charged at the pump, people would be screaming to go back to pure gasoline. This does not even take into consideration that you have to burn more ethanol fuel to go the same distance. No matter how small this amount is. It still adds to total cost. Manufacturers are using thinner oil to get 1 mpg improvement in fuel mileage. This improvement could easily be exceeded just by going to pure gasoline.

    To reduce our dependence on fossil fuels? It actually takes more fossil fuel to produce a gallon of ethanol than it does to produce a gallon of pure gasoline.

    To increase fuel mileage? Well, I think most everyone knows this is not the case.

    To reduce pollution? You probably will never see it because no one is really interested in funding this kind of research, and it goes against the agenda. But there are reliable studies that show a reasonably higher overall pollution issue with ethanol compared to pure gasoline.

    To make vehicles more reliable? Just the opposite is true of ethanol fuel. It makes vehicles less reliable and shortens their overall life span.

    There is one huge benefit to ethanol fuel. Farmers can make quite a good profit from growing products used in the production of ethanol.
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  5. #30
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    'Why are we using ethanol fuel to begin with?'
    We are using it for political reasons. Not actual practical reasons.

  6. #31
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen47 View Post
    We are using it for political reasons. Not actual practical reasons.
    Exactly...
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    The CSA, Corn Shuckers of America, says ethanol is the way to go.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    I just don't see this 'Trusim' when you look at the entire picture. Because the total cost to the consumer is higher for ethanol than it is for pure gasoline.

    I think the important question here is; 'Why are we using ethanol fuel to begin with?'

    Because ethanol fuels costs less? Only at the pump. We are actually paying more for ethanol fuel than for straight gasoline when you consider the total cost. This is exactly why the government intentionally hides the actual cost by subsidizing ethanol fuel with tax money. If the true cost of ethanol fuel were charged at the pump, people would be screaming to go back to pure gasoline. This does not even take into consideration that you have to burn more ethanol fuel to go the same distance. No matter how small this amount is. It still adds to total cost. Manufacturers are using thinner oil to get 1 mpg improvement in fuel mileage. This improvement could easily be exceeded just by going to pure gasoline.

    To reduce our dependence on fossil fuels? It actually takes more fossil fuel to produce a gallon of ethanol than it does to produce a gallon of pure gasoline.

    To increase fuel mileage? Well, I think most everyone knows this is not the case.

    To reduce pollution? You probably will never see it because no one is really interested in funding this kind of research, and it goes against the agenda. But there are reliable studies that show a reasonably higher overall pollution issue with ethanol compared to pure gasoline.

    To make vehicles more reliable? Just the opposite is true of ethanol fuel. It makes vehicles less reliable and shortens their overall life span.

    There is one huge benefit to ethanol fuel. Farmers can make quite a good profit from growing products used in the production of ethanol.
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  9. #34
    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen47 View Post
    We are using it for political reasons. Not actual practical reasons.
    There is one practical and important reason. It is a cleaner & safer octane booster than tetraethyl lead or MTBE.

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  10. #35
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    There is one practical and important reason. It is a cleaner & safer octane booster than tetraethyl lead or MTBE.
    So it is unanimous! Uses 87 proof gasohol, unless you have a low annoyance threshold of hearing slight pinging when accelerating HARD (if it is actually indeed present), in which case, try a full tankful of mid-grade.

  11. #36
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    There is one practical and important reason. It is a cleaner & safer octane booster than tetraethyl lead or MTBE.
    Initially, this was true. But, depending on how you look at it, may no longer be true. Certainly not now true for leaded gasoline and to a great degree, MTBE's as well. Though I believe that a fair amount of MTBE's are still being exported to locations all over the world.

    Leaded gasoline for on road use was banned in the US in 1996. Tetraethyl is the chemical name for the lead additive, so they are one in the same. Though some aviation fuels still use lead. As far as I know there is only 1 company left in the world (Innospec Inc.) legally making lead additive fuel. However, there are several refineries in China and other 3rd world locations still making it illegally.

    In the year 2000 the EPA began a mandated phase-out of MTBE additives. Last I heard, 25 states have banned it's use but that is old information. It is probably more that 25 today.

    Today, BTEX (aromatics) derived from petroleum are the current octane booster used in most pure gasoline products in the USA. Admittedly, these also have their detractors. But lead is virtually gone and MTBE's are being eliminated. So these should essentially no longer be part of the discussion.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 05-17-2019 at 10:57 AM.
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  12. #37
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    So, I was on the Can Am site today looking at Ryker specs. It says Premium Unleaded right on their website under the Ryker specs under the Capacity Section. So, what say you now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KC61 View Post
    So, I was on the Can Am site today looking at Ryker specs. It says Premium Unleaded right on their website under the Ryker specs under the Capacity Section. So, what say you now?
    RTFM! And
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  14. #39
    Very Active Member Highwayman2013's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chupaca View Post
    What it boils down to is.... you can use 87 and better. There was a time they recommended only high octane and even then folks ran on the lower grade and there were no issues. There will be slight difference as you can see stated above but unless your driving some gas guzzeling SUV the difference in price for running a better fuel is not much....
    How is higher octane "better"?
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  15. #40
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McRuss View Post
    RTFM! And
    Ummm.... USA pumps display the AKI rating. European pumps display the RON rating. So when in USA use 87, when in Europe, use 92. Simple as that.

    Plain as day on page 37 of RYKER Manual:

    IMG_20190516_150738.jpg

    Furthermore, if your engine has no pinging whatsoever under acceleration using 87 octane, then you are at "optimal performance" already. Higher octane does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It is an anti-pre-ignition component. If you have none, it does nothing at all to have a higher level of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McRuss View Post
    RTFM! And
    Is that a picture of you wacking your donkey?

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    I don't know if this applies or not but just personal experience.

    In my past I purchased a Honda 200X from a guy who raced it when I was in high school. He said it had 12.5:1 ratio piston with aftermarket cam with the supertrap pipe. It was raced side by side on flat road with a year newer model and it beat it overall by about a length, nothing spectacular, but definitely faster off the line. It kicked like a mule to start and mostly I preferred to park it on hills if I could to bump start. I do know one thing, we used higher octane fuel religiously. If I didn't use it, the ping was horrible, you though the engine was ready to blow. Also more noticeable in hot summer weather. It also went through head gaskets quickly.

    I have 2K on my Rally. I've been running 87. I'll continue to do so, I'm broke I own a motorcycle now.

  18. #43
    Active Member bcraig's Avatar
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    Use what ever octane that gives you the performance you are happy with. It costs me another $2.50 to fill my Ryker 600 tank with premium. Whether it is perceived better performance or not, I feel better about it and it's my penny saved or not. My last tank of premium got me 183 miles when the low fuel light came on. It took 4.5 gallons to fill it up. That's over 40 mpg. Miles to Empty showed I still had another 45 miles. I'm going to continue using premium. I'm just over 300 miles on my bike so MPGs should only improve.

  19. #44
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    A myth that premium gives better MPG is one of the 7 myths along with buying the cheapest gas around is not as good as the most expensive in town:

    https://www2.greencarreports.com/new...ur-gas-mileage

  20. #45
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    Gasohol is a poltical sop to Big Agriculture, which otherwise is politically conservative. But not when there is money to be made (fleeced).

  21. #46
    Active Member bcraig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen47 View Post
    A myth that premium gives better MPG is one of the 7 myths along with buying the cheapest gas around is not as good as the most expensive in town:

    https://www2.greencarreports.com/new...ur-gas-mileage
    I'm a fan of fiction. Use what suits you, I will.

  22. #47
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    I try and make my own determinations based on real world experience. Not some crap I read on the internet. The internet is a great resource, but don't believe everything you read. With that said, my Ryker will be ran on premium fuel without ethanol if available.

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    And that said, we will each run what we think is best, real world experiences or not (and my Ryker will run on 87, with or without ethanol.) Speaking of "crap I read on the internet..." This thread has more than its share. 48 posts and not one convert from 91 (92) to 87 or vice versa!
    Last edited by McRuss; 05-16-2019 at 10:48 PM. Reason: Additiona crap added

  24. #49
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McRuss View Post

    And that said, we will each run what we think is best, real world experiences or not (and my Ryker will run on 87, with or without ethanol.) Speaking of "crap I read on the internet..." This thread has more than its share. 48 posts and not one convert from 91 (92) to 87 or vice versa!
    People tend to stubbornly defend what they do because "they've always done it that way" despite the facts contrary. It really is true you can't teach old dogs new tricks.

  25. #50
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC61 View Post
    So, I was on the Can Am site today looking at Ryker specs. It says Premium Unleaded right on their website under the Ryker specs under the Capacity Section. So, what say you now?
    It goes back to Minimum Requirements vs Optimal Options. Yes, you can run ethanol fuel with an octane rating as low as 87 in the Ryker. The ECU is designed to compensate for the less than optimal octane component. But if you want optimal performance you will need to use Premium Octane fuel. And, knowing the attributes of both fuel types. Using non-ethanol fuel will give you the best results. It's simply a matter of physics. You just can't change physical realities with opinions.

    However, the next potential fly in the ointment and legitimate question is, how much difference will using optimal fuel make over using the minimum requirement fuel? This is where the factual debate lies.
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