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  1. #76
    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    Now, with fuel injection, the fuel does not enter the picture until just before the spark plug fires.
    I don't think that is correct. The EFI injectors inject the fuel into the intake ports of the cylinder head, which means the fuel enters the combustion chamber along with the air. If the fuel was injected just before the spark plug fires that would mean the fuel would have to be injected directly into the combustion chamber, like a diesel engine. Look at the Fuel System section of the EFI chapter of the service manual (2014 RTS in my case).

    I think one of the main reasons predetonation isn't the problem it used to be is that combustion chambers have been designed to maximize air/fuel mixing, plus there are probably no sharp corners or other small bits of metal that can get hot enough to retain heat and cause the next air/fuel charge to ignite prematurely.

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  2. #77
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    I don't think that is correct. The EFI injectors inject the fuel into the intake ports of the cylinder head, which means the fuel enters the combustion chamber along with the air. If the fuel was injected just before the spark plug fires that would mean the fuel would have to be injected directly into the combustion chamber, like a diesel engine. Look at the Fuel System section of the EFI chapter of the service manual (2014 RTS in my case).

    I think one of the main reasons predetonation isn't the problem it used to be is that combustion chambers have been designed to maximize air/fuel mixing, plus there are probably no sharp corners or other small bits of metal that can get hot enough to retain heat and cause the next air/fuel charge to ignite prematurely.
    WHATEVER the reason, NO pre-ignition means your octane level is just fine and a higher number does NOTHING!

    I've been a diesel owner since 1984, and owned many makes & models. Dieselheads are the exact same way about CETANE, they think a higher number (than actually needed) makes it run better, smoother, faster. Totally false. The "placebo effect" affects those guys too. A minimum cetane number is needed to START a diesel engine. If your engine starts right up, you have adequate cetane - period. Adding a "cetane booster" to your fuel does ZERO if it already starts w/o adding one.

  3. #78
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    I don't think that is correct. The EFI injectors inject the fuel into the intake ports of the cylinder head, which means the fuel enters the combustion chamber along with the air. If the fuel was injected just before the spark plug fires that would mean the fuel would have to be injected directly into the combustion chamber, like a diesel engine. Look at the Fuel System section of the EFI chapter of the service manual (2014 RTS in my case).

    I think one of the main reasons predetonation isn't the problem it used to be is that combustion chambers have been designed to maximize air/fuel mixing, plus there are probably no sharp corners or other small bits of metal that can get hot enough to retain heat and cause the next air/fuel charge to ignite prematurely.
    I stand corrected. You are correct. We do not have direct fuel injection. My error. Thank you for pointing this out.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    It goes back to Minimum Requirements vs Optimal Options. Yes, you can run ethanol fuel with an octane rating as low as 87 in the Ryker. The ECU is designed to compensate for the less than optimal octane component. But if you want optimal performance you will need to use Premium Octane fuel. And, knowing the attributes of both fuel types. Using non-ethanol fuel will give you the best results. It's simply a matter of physics. You just can't change physical realities with opinions.

    However, the next potential fly in the ointment and legitimate question is, how much difference will using optimal fuel make over using the minimum requirement fuel? This is where the factual debate lies.
    So what about 87 e-free vs typical 93? I've typically tried to use the e-free since I have it available in my area.

  5. #80
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coinoperatedboi View Post
    So what about 87 e-free vs typical 93? I've typically tried to use the e-free since I have it available in my area.
    ...DO NOT - repeat - DO NOT ...put that in your Spyder ….. or any other gas engine that isn't specifically designed to use it ….. Mike

  6. #81
    Very Active Member jcthorne's Avatar
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    Just curious, has anyone looked at the emissions certification label ON THE BIKE? It specifies the required octane fuel for the bike as shipped and superceedes the owners manual. Would not be the first time BRP sold a bike that was certified for one thing and the owners manuals were out of date or in error.

    Could someone post a pic of the label from a Ryker 600 and 900?

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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    ...DO NOT - repeat - DO NOT ...put that in your Spyder ….. or any other gas engine that isn't specifically designed to use it ….. Mike
    Well, since he is in the Ryker forum and there is absolutely nothing wrong with using ethanol free 87 octane in his Ryker what's the problem?

  8. #83
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC61 View Post
    Well, since he is in the Ryker forum and there is absolutely nothing wrong with using ethanol free 87 octane in his Ryker what's the problem?
    Well after your comment I re-read that post …… I have NEVER even heard of …87 e-free …. I have heard of 87 PURE Gas and " 85 " E-free ….. which should only be used in veh's CERTIFIED to use 85 E-free …… Mike

  9. #84
    Active Member bcraig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    Well after your comment I re-read that post …… I have NEVER even heard of …87 e-free …. I have heard of 87 PURE Gas and " 85 " E-free ….. which should only be used in veh's CERTIFIED to use 85 E-free …… Mike
    I think you are confusing E85 (85% Ethenol) and e-free (ethanol free)

  10. #85
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcraig View Post
    I think you are confusing E85 (15% Ethonol) and e-free (ethanol free)
    Yep I was ….. almost all the gas available in Vermont isn't advertised as 87 e-free ….. they just say UN-LEADED 87 octane then on the pump it says contains no more than 10% ethyl ………… I hope this ends this conversation …… Mike

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcraig View Post
    I think you are confusing E85 (15% Ethonol) and e-free (ethanol free)
    E10 = 10% Ethanol

    E15 = 15% Ethanol

    E85 = 85% Ethanol

    E-Free = 0% Ethanol

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    Yep I was ….. almost all the gas available in Vermont isn't advertised as 87 e-free ….. they just say UN-LEADED 87 octane then on the pump it says contains no more than 10% ethyl ………… I hope this ends this conversation …… Mike
    I believe you have E10 fuel from what you are explaining, which is 10% ethanol. If you had E-free it would not state that it contains no more than 10% ethyl (ethanol) I think the statement E-free is just "street" talk I have never seen it on a pump in Wisconsin even in the areas (counties) that are not mandated to have to sell fuel with ethanol.

  13. #88
    Active Member bcraig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAS POWER View Post
    E10 = 10% Ethanol

    E15 = 15% Ethanol

    E85 = 85% Ethanol

    E-Free = 0% Ethanol
    I stand corrected. Thanks

  14. #89
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    I believe you have E10 fuel from what you are explaining, which is 10% ethanol. If you had E-free it would not state that it contains no more than 10% ethyl (ethanol) I think the statement E-free is just "street" talk I have never seen it on a pump in Wisconsin even in the areas (counties) that are not mandated to have to sell fuel with ethanol





    Street talk being that it's not true or....? I just put 87 ethanol free in my Zuma this morning. It's a completely separate blue handled pump.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by coinoperatedboi View Post
    I believe you have E10 fuel from what you are explaining, which is 10% ethanol. If you had E-free it would not state that it contains no more than 10% ethyl (ethanol) I think the statement E-free is just "street" talk I have never seen it on a pump in Wisconsin even in the areas (counties) that are not mandated to have to sell fuel with ethanol





    Street talk being that it's not true or....? I just put 87 ethanol free in my Zuma this morning. It's a completely separate blue handled pump.


    Eh I think I get what you're saying to the other poster. Way it's worded I guess sounded odd.

  16. #91
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    Our Quiktrip convenience stores around KC have the non ethanol 87 as a separate nozzle. It's a little more expensive but not much.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by coinoperatedboi View Post
    Eh I think I get what you're saying to the other poster. Way it's worded I guess sounded odd.
    What I was getting at with "street talk" was the phrase "E-free" in Wisconsin we also have 87 without ethanol (E-free 87), but on the pump it will say contains no ethanol, not E-free.

  18. #93
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    The BP stations around here have non ethanol premium 91, that's what I put in my bike and my wifes Tiguan. The Ryker will get the same.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAS POWER View Post
    What I was getting at with "street talk" was the phrase "E-free" in Wisconsin we also have 87 without ethanol (E-free 87), but on the pump it will say contains no ethanol, not E-free.

    Ah I gotcha. Yeah ours say Ethanol Free here.

  20. #95
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    I thought this thread was dead....finding it still alive, I decided to throw a little 'fuel' on the fire! I ordered the 'shop manual' and was reading through it tonight and came across this tidbit:

    "Gasoline Type: Regular Unleaded"
    "Minimum octane rating, 87 (No ethanol), 91 (10% ethanol)." This is for US/Canada models.

    And that being said, I'm still going to run 87 (10% ethanol) in my Rally.

  21. #96
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    I guess at this point it is safe to say is OK to use any type of gas as long is 87+... final decision is up to each individual .

  22. #97
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    The Rotax 1330 ACE engine is running 12:1 compression (see pic below). Todays engine management systems incorporate knock sensors. When knock is detected (primarily due to lower octane fuel than specified) timing is automatically retarded to reduce knock. When no knock is detected, well you guessed it, timing is not retarded. The owners manual for us 1330 owners specifically states "premium" fuel for a very good reason. A compression ration of 12:1 is definitely in "premium" territory. Will is run on 87 octane, sure. Will is run more efficiently on premium, you bet. May not be something you can feel but your engine knows the difference.

    Haven't investigated what the compression ratio is on the two Ryder engines but if their calling for "regular" fuel you can bet it's not 12:1 like the 1330.
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  23. #98
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    hypurone: Great info. Thanks. Tells me you shouldn't get any knocking from 87 octane.
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  25. #100
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    Technically depends what part of the world you are in. Different calculations of octane depending on area!

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