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  1. #1
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Default Rykers Require 87 Octane - Not 92!

    There seems to be some confusion about which octane is really needed for the Ryker (maybe it is just ME that is confused).

    Ryker Manual page 37 states:

    "Use regular unleaded gasoline with a minimum AKI (RON+MON)/2 octane rating of 87, or a RON octane rating of 92. The USA uses the (RON+MON)/2 number whilst Europe (and others) use the RON rating. This means a Ryker will run perfectly fine on 87 all day long.

    All higher octane/way more expensive fuel will do, is reduce or eliminate any "pinging" during hard acceleration. Nothing more. It will NOT increase MPG, no will it give you more HP. Plus, unnecessary higher octane pollutes more.

    Literally EVERY Ryker owner who has never tried 87, should! They very well could be pleasantly surprised!

    In the Manual, where it says "For optimal performance use.... 91 octane", they are only talking about possible engine pinging.

  2. #2
    Very Active Member hypurone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen47 View Post
    In the Manual, where it says "For optimal performance use.... 91 octane", they are only talking about possible engine pinging.
    Well, technically yes but in reality, using the higher octane allows the ECM to use a different timing map (more advancement) without detonation. Which will in fact give better performance by accessing all available power the engine has at any given load....

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    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypurone View Post
    Well, technically yes but in reality, using the higher octane allows the ECM to use a different timing map (more advancement) without detonation. Which will in fact give better performance by accessing all available power the engine has at any given load....
    This is true, but how much performance does that mean ???? ….. I have never seen any Dyno numbers for any Spyder engine , stock or modified.... Any other measurement of performance is pure speculation and will vary Hughly …. depending on who's driving, type of surface, weather conditions etc. etc. ….. for my 2014 RT paying .50 to .60 cents more per Gal ( in Vt. ) … for less than 1% improvement ( a guess ) just isn't worth it to me …… Mike

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    Some years ago there were several studies on using higher octane. Not being sure what I was reading I was using 91, until I realized it only required 87 on re-reading the manual. The studies basically said using higher octane than required was a waste of money. The Ryker manual is poorly written and vague about several things. I am frugal but not cheap, spending more on gas than I need to is just a waste of money for myself.
    And of course each person can make there own decision on what to use. On one trip I got got exceptional mpg, but it was a warm day and I was at a t study 40 mph. I think weather and humidity and winter vs summer gas has a big impact on mpg and not octane. When someone says "optimal" without explaining what it means I tend to ignore it.

  5. #5
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypurone View Post
    Well, technically yes but in reality, using the higher octane allows the ECM to use a different timing map (more advancement) without detonation. Which will in fact give better performance by accessing all available power the engine has at any given load....
    MAINLY the ECM adjusts the spark plug timing accordingly. This does not affect HP or MPG. The BTUs/lb. of fuel is identical, all grade of gasoline. The spark plug timing also is adjusted according for varying elevations (& other conditions).

    When I went from PREMIUM (required!) to REGULAR in my Slingshot, I experienced NO decrease in MPG whatsoever, and no noticeable power decrease.

    The bottom line is, if you don't have significant pinging under HARD acceleration with 87 octane, even HP will have zero increase going higher octane.

    BTW: We had an '81 Ford Fairmont 4 cylinder. It called for regular gas. It (back in the uncertain oil supply & sporadic oil shortage days) had some "lean burn" system to squeeze miles out of every drop of fuel. Under HARD acceleration, it pinged horrifically! Even light acceleration it had moderate pinging, and even at steady speed (no acceleration) is still had some. We put 60,000 miles on said car, no engine problems.

    For those that think light ping on acceleration is going to "ruin" an engine is being hyperbolic.

  6. #6
    Very Active Member Chupaca's Avatar
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    Default All in all...

    What it boils down to is.... you can use 87 and better. There was a time they recommended only high octane and even then folks ran on the lower grade and there were no issues. There will be slight difference as you can see stated above but unless your driving some gas guzzeling SUV the difference in price for running a better fuel is not much....
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    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chupaca View Post
    What it boils down to is.... you can use 87 and better. There was a time they recommended only high octane and even then folks ran on the lower grade and there were no issues. There will be slight difference as you can see stated above but unless your driving some gas guzzeling SUV the difference in price for running a better fuel is not much....
    True, but..... it still it true that "a penny saved is a penny earned" (like my grandmother who survived the Great Depression always said ). Especially when for all practical and all likely purposes, spending more makes literally no difference.

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    I say that running a higher octane than recommended is a waste of money is pure and simple BS. My wifes new VW Tiguan R-Line calls for 87 octane, but the performance and fuel economy advantages can clearly be seen and felt when using 91 octane. I'm sure the Ryker will be the same way. Mine will have premium all the time.

  9. #9
    aka: akspyderman ARtraveler's Avatar
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    I will repeat what I have posted in a couple other threads.

    I quit using premium in all my Spyders a couple years back. Alaska gas contains no ethanol. I use 87 octane. I have noticed no difference in performance or mileage. IMO, the computer learns the new gas and the Spyder runs accordingly.

    My car (Subaru 2017 Outback) and Vulcan 900 MC also run on the 87. I am also saving 20 cents per gallon in the process. In summer, I would have a $300 per month gasoline bill.

    Currently Owned: 2011 RT A&C SE5 (magnesium), 2014 RTS-SE6 (yellow), 2015 Vulcan 900 LTD

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    The BP's around here sell non ethanol Premium 91 octane, I run that in My Yamaha Stratoliner as well as the VW. Most gas stations in Kansas have a non ethanol option for a little more money.

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    Active Member JS3535's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypurone View Post
    Well, technically yes but in reality, using the higher octane allows the ECM to use a different timing map (more advancement) without detonation. Which will in fact give better performance by accessing all available power the engine has at any given load....

  12. #12
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC61 View Post
    The BP's around here sell non ethanol Premium 91 octane, I run that in My Yamaha Stratoliner as well as the VW. Most gas stations in Kansas have a non ethanol option for a little more money.
    Here in FL, it is almost always always massively higher in price. The slight increase in MPG of non-ethanol, is simply not worth the added expense.

  13. #13
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    The fuel issue, like many others, will rage on regardless of how many opinions are posted. But I will say there can be a good deal of difference between 'Required' and 'Optimal'.

    When I graduated high school a 'C' was required. But an 'A' was definitely optimal. That was a long time ago. Things may have changed.
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  14. #14
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    The fuel issue, like many others, will rage on regardless of how many opinions are posted. But I will say there can be a good deal of difference between 'Required' and 'Optimal'.

    When I graduated high school a 'C' was required. But an 'A' was definitely optimal. That was a long time ago. Things may have changed.
    It is probably closer to the 1% someone previously mentioned than the difference between a C and an A.

  15. #15
    Very Active Member hypurone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    This is true, but how much performance does that mean ????
    the million dollar question that may never be answered in the Spyder/Ryker arena....

    Quote Originally Posted by ARtraveler View Post
    I will repeat what I have posted in a couple other threads.

    I quit using premium in all my Spyders a couple years back. Alaska gas contains no ethanol. I use 87 octane. I have noticed no difference in performance or mileage. IMO, the computer learns the new gas and the Spyder runs accordingly.

    My car (Subaru 2017 Outback) and Vulcan 900 MC also run on the 87. I am also saving 20 cents per gallon in the process. In summer, I would have a $300 per month gasoline bill.
    And what a lot of folks forget is that not everyone has "non-ethanol" fuel available to them. Octane plays an even larger role in the ethanol arena. I had my 2010 Camaro with a CR of 10.7:1 dyno'ed on both regular and premium before adding the supercharger. The folks at the dealer were "doing me a favor" and filled the tank with regular when I bought it! Yikes! The car is designed to run on anything between 87 & 91... There was a 2% difference in HP output between the 2 octanes....

    I had the same car dyon'ed after adding a Supercharger with pure gas a friend brought from out of state and with the ethanol crap we have here. The difference in power (due to timing being pulled when on ethanol gas) was 8%!

    Now the Spyder or Ryker engines won't have that high of a return but there will most certainly be a difference. If the ECM is pulling timing to "safely run & avoid detonation" there is power reduction. Most folks just aren't sensitive enough to feel it or never run the engine like some of hooligans do....

    The wife's 2008 Camry Hybrid runs very subdued on regular. With a simple bump to "Plus" which is 89 here, it runs like a demon and the mileage is 1mpg better...

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    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypurone View Post

    The wife's 2008 Camry Hybrid runs very subdued on regular. With a simple bump to "Plus" which is 89 here, it runs like a demon and the mileage is 1mpg better...
    A one (1) tankful comparison is far from accurate. There are many variables, such as temperature, humidity, road conditions, prevailing winds, source of fuel, etc., etc. You would have to do at least 20 tankful of each type & do an average.

    But YES! Ethanol contains more energy that pure gasoline. But the difference in price still make it cheaper per mile to use ethanol.

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    If your owners manual says 87 is ok, then run it!

    Either the engine doesn't have that high of a compression ratio or the computer can compensate for the lack of octane, either or your fine with the 87!

    Why all the fuss over this

  18. #18
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAS POWER View Post
    If your owners manual says 87 is ok, then run it!

    Either the engine doesn't have that high of a compression ratio or the computer can compensate for the lack of octane, either or your fine with the 87!

    Why all the fuss over this
    Because some people are "anal" about stuff. Many years ago I was a regular at a VW TDI (diesel)message board. Folk there were horrified at things I did (or didn't) do with it maintenance wise. Twenty (20) years later, my son in CA uses said car daily, it runs great at 269,000 miles, and almost everything is still factory original! Only major item replaced was A/C compressor.

  19. #19
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen47 View Post
    It is probably closer to the 1% someone previously mentioned than the difference between a C and an A.
    I get between 10-15% better fuel mileage running premium over regular fuel. This was in my 2008 RS. I have not done any comparisons with my Ryker.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 05-17-2019 at 10:53 AM.
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    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    I get between 10-15% better fuel mileage running premium over regular fuel.
    Must have been going more downhill. I was in Greeneville a bunch of times, when I was leased on to Land Air.

    BTW: Premium costs considerably MORE than 10-15% more than regular, even if true.

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    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen47 View Post
    Must have been going more downhill. I was in Greeneville a bunch of times, when I was leased on to Land Air.

    BTW: Premium costs considerably MORE than 10-15% more than regular, even if true.
    If cost is the only parameter, the Spyder is probably not the least expensive per mile vehicle you can get. It's just a matter of what matters most to each owner.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 04-17-2019 at 07:00 AM.
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    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen47 View Post
    But YES! Ethanol contains more energy that pure gasoline. But the difference in price still make it cheaper per mile to use ethanol.
    ??????????????????????????????????????????

    From this page: https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_fuel_basics.html

    Ethanol contains less energy per gallon than gasoline, to varying degrees, depending on the volume percentage of ethanol in the blend. Denatured ethanol (98% ethanol) contains about 30% less energy than gasoline per gallon. Ethanolís impact on fuel economy is dependent on the ethanol content in the fuel and whether an engine is optimized to run on gasoline or ethanol.

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  23. #23
    SpyderLovers Sponsor BajaRon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen47 View Post
    A one (1) tankful comparison is far from accurate. There are many variables, such as temperature, humidity, road conditions, prevailing winds, source of fuel, etc., etc. You would have to do at least 20 tankful of each type & do an average.

    But YES! Ethanol contains more energy that pure gasoline. But the difference in price still make it cheaper per mile to use ethanol.
    I did over 50 fill-ups on my trip to California and back for the data I present. Mostly highway miles with cruise control set.

    Here is what Wikipedia says about the Ethanol to Gasoline comparison (which is pretty typical of what you'll find from other sources).

    Wikipedia
    "1.5 gallons of ethanol has the same energy content as 1.0 gallon of gasoline. A flex-fuel vehicle will experience about 76% of the fuel mileage MPG when using E85 (85% ethanol) products as compared to 100% gasoline. ... Pure ethanol provides 2/3 of the heat value available in pure gasoline."

    And ethanol is definitely NOT cheaper than gasoline. It costs a fair amount more to produce 1 gallon of ethanol than it does to produce 1 gallon of gasoline. The difference in price comes from your tax dollars subsidizing ethanol so that it APPEARS less expensive because the price at the pump is less. But the total price being paid is higher (part of the total cost being hidden because it's being removed from another pocket).

    Then you have the billions of dollars of damage done to vehicle components because of ethanol, the short storage time, ethanol's affinity for water, etc., none of it good. So, we are using a more expensive, yet inferior product.

    We are told that ethanol pollutes less than gasoline. And that is true if you just look at the tail pipe pollution produced by both. But when you take into consideration the entire process of planting, fertilizing, processing and transporting ethanol, it is not clear at all that there is an overall pollution advantage.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 04-17-2019 at 09:17 AM.
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  24. #24
    Active Member Aufgeblassen47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    ??????????????????????????????????????????

    From this page: https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_fuel_basics.html
    WHAT specifically are you confused about???????????????????????????????????????

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    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aufgeblassen47 View Post
    WHAT specifically are you confused about???????????????????????????????????????
    You wrote that ethanol has more energy than gasoline. Is that what you believe or did you miswrite? Ethanol has 30% LESS energy than gasoline.

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