Harley Clamping Down on Owners

[Tango]

Read this on an Indian Forum. HD is now enforcing EPA Laws in regards to tampering with emissions on bikes still under warranty. A letter was sent out to CA. dealers regarding this. Owners that go in for service are getting their warranties voided if engine management systems are tampered with. Carb rules are much stricter than the rest of the USA. Tom

[Gwolf]

California has always been against modifications of any kind. They have rules to keep you from changing the stock mufflers out too.

[UtahPete]

California has always been against modifications of any kind. They have rules to keep you from changing the stock mufflers out too.

This needs to become national law in my opinion.

[Navydad]

This needs to become national law in my opinion.

No tampering is the law in many states, but it just isn't enforced as rigorously in most places. Read the fine print on your exhaust systems and see where it says they are manufactured to meet FEDERAL requirements. In states where yearly inspections are called for many folks just put the stock pipes on for inspection and then remove them again after the inspection. Exhaust laws like gun laws are only as good as the enforcement behind them. HD is only getting onboard because of the pressure being put on them. They make big $$$ from the sale of "off road or for racing purposes only" modifications and they aren't about to stop voluntarily. My systems are always stock because there is little worse than listening to a load pipe for 500 miles a day.

[KyBill]

This needs to become national law in my opinion.

Not in mine.

People should mind their own business.

[UtahPete]

Not in mine.

People should mind their own business.

Don't look now, but there are lots of limits on personal freedom for the social good. It's called 'society'

[KyBill]

Don't look now, but there are lots of limits on personal freedom for the social good. It's called 'society'

Its hardly a binary function and no reason to sublimate personal freedom for “societal good”” when the overall benefit to society is minimal.

Far greater percentages of noise and pollution come from diesel trucks than could ever come from cycles which are much more noise and fuel efficient.

[Zoot]

This needs to become national law in my opinion.

Well, I would certainly agree that a lot of guys want their bikes to be super loud so they can annoy people - and they do. But I would also point out that if you are only allowed to use OEM mufflers then your older bike may be scrap. Any idea where to find NOS mufflers for a 1986 Yamaha SRX600 or even a 1991 Suzuki VX800? If not, a rusty pipe could mean the bike is toast.

[SpyderAnn01]

Well, I would certainly agree that a lot of guys want their bikes to be super loud so they can annoy people - and they do. But I would also point out that if you are only allowed to use OEM mufflers then your older bike may be scrap. Any idea where to find NOS mufflers for a 1986 Yamaha SRX600 or even a 1991 Suzuki VX800? If not, a rusty pipe could mean the bike is toast.

I was in the garage today and saw that we have two stock exhausts from 10-12 RT, and I thought I should throw them out, maybe I’ll hang on to them.

[RLS Exhaust]

I sale Exhaust to california customers but require them to sign a wavier saying they understand that my exhaust are not legal for on road use and are not legal in California unless on a closed course .I do this to protect myself other companies selling off road exhaust for on road use have suffered some very large fines from CARB

[Gwolf]

Well, I would certainly agree that a lot of guys want their bikes to be super loud so they can annoy people - and they do. But I would also point out that if you are only allowed to use OEM mufflers then your older bike may be scrap. Any idea where to find NOS mufflers for a 1986 Yamaha SRX600 or even a 1991 Suzuki VX800? If not, a rusty pipe could mean the bike is toast.

All after-market exhausts in California are not illegal. In the case of no longer being able to find the OEM parts, you could still use after-market parts. The after-market parts used would be required to have a EO number on them. After-market manufactures can get their products pre-approved and certified by the state as meeting the EPA and noise standards. Once certified, the after-market parts receive the EO number stamp and they are just as legal as the OEM parts. It is a law that puts a lot of hoops out for the manufacturers to jump through before their parts are really legal. It makes an already confusing subject, even more confusing.

[jcthorne]

This needs to become national law in my opinion.

I disagree.

There is a very fine line between right to repair and no tampering. And the folks writing the laws do not know or care the difference. Anti tampering laws put independent shops out of business. Be very careful what you ask for.

[KX5062]

Read this on an Indian Forum. HD is now enforcing EPA Laws in regards to tampering with emissions on bikes still under warranty. A letter was sent out to CA. dealers regarding this. Owners that go in for service are getting their warranties voided if engine management systems are tampered with. Carb rules are much stricter than the rest of the USA. Tom

Sorry, this is old news. This has to do with a consent decree the MoCo was forced to sign with the EPA in July 2017. This why all of the Screaming Eagle engine and exhaust accessories now meet EPA standards.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1A41UU

The ARB (formerly known as the CARB) has always been "this way". Gov Ahnold signed a law about modification back in 2012 that made things even worse. The newest proposal being kicked around is to make all off-road vehicle conform to on-road ARB standards by 2027. This would effectively kill the OHV industry in Commifornia. Which, BTW, is being strangled by road and trail closures throughout the state, which is being copied throughout the Western US.

If you think any of this stuff has anything to do with a cleaner environment, I'll sell you a bridge cheap.

[johnsimion]

Sorry, this is old news. This has to do with a consent decree the MoCo was forced to sign with the EPA in July 2017. This why all of the Screaming Eagle engine and exhaust accessories now meet EPA standards.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1A41UU

The ARB (formerly known as the CARB) has always been "this way". Gov Ahnold signed a law about modification back in 2012 that made things even worse. The newest proposal being kicked around is to make all off-road vehicle conform to on-road ARB standards by 2027. This would effectively kill the OHV industry in Commifornia. Which, BTW, is being strangled by road and trail closures throughout the state, which is being copied throughout the Western US.

If you think any of this stuff has anything to do with a cleaner environment, I'll sell you a bridge cheap.

Why should emissions standards for off-road vehicles be different from those for on-road vehicles? Pollution is pollution, no matter the source. Consider a street-legal Jeep versus e.g., a Can-Am off-road vehicle. Both are used off-road but what rational reason is there for the Can-Am to be exempt while Jeep is not? If the pollution from these off-road vehicles is irrelevant, then why don't we also eliminate pollution controls for on-road vehicles? You call California "Commiefornia"? California is acting on behalf of the health of its citizens and will roll back the rules if the majority of its citizens vote that way. It's called "democracy." You want to see real Communism? Look at all the Chinese walking around Beijing wearing masks and buying oxygen bottles to breathe. Their government doesn't care and the people have no say in the matter. That's 180 degrees opposite of what you call "Commiefornia." You want that here? Seriously?

[Gwolf]

Why should emissions standards for off-road vehicles be different from those for on-road vehicles? Pollution is pollution, no matter the source. Consider a street-legal Jeep versus e.g., a Can-Am off-road vehicle. Both are used off-road but what rational reason is there for the Can-Am to be exempt while Jeep is not? If the pollution from these off-road vehicles is irrelevant, then why don't we also eliminate pollution controls for on-road vehicles? You call California "Commiefornia"? California is acting on behalf of the health of its citizens and will roll back the rules if the majority of its citizens vote that way. It's called "democracy." You want to see real Communism? Look at all the Chinese walking around Beijing wearing masks and buying oxygen bottles to breathe. Their government doesn't care and the people have no say in the matter. That's 180 degrees opposite of what you call "Commiefornia." You want that here? Seriously?

Because off road vehicles don't need a tag or registration. What is the government going to threaten them with? How are they going to test them? How would they even know if you built one? Before they can pass laws controlling off road vehicles, they must first determine where the off road vehicles are and who owns them.

It would create a whole new governmental bureaucracy, and that might make the politicians quite happy, if they didn't get voted out of office for trying to regulate unregistered vehicles.

Most off road vehicles are only used for short periods of time for recreation and not driven daily on the highways.

[johnsimion]

Because off road vehicles don't need a tag or registration. What is the government going to threaten them with? How are they going to test them? How would they even know if you built one? Before they can pass laws controlling off road vehicles, they must first determine where the off road vehicles are and who owns them.

It would create a whole new governmental bureaucracy, and that might make the politicians quite happy, if they didn't get voted out of office for trying to regulate unregistered vehicles.

Most off road vehicles are only used for short periods of time for recreation and not driven daily on the highways.

Off-road vehicles already DO have to be registered in NV, UT, AZ and CA (see, e.g., https://ohv.nv.gov/register, https://dmv.utah.gov/vehicles/atvs-dirt-bikes, https://www.ridenowpeoria.com/inform...y_registration). Since you were clearly wrong on that point, I didn't bother to research the rest of the U.S.

As for enforcement, NV and CA (to my personal knowledge) already require smog tests for on-road vehicles. There are smog testing stations all over Las Vegas already. Requiring tests for off-road vehicles as well would not create a "whole new bureaucracy," just more smog tests for the existing network. This is enforced by decals. It's not really that hard for a cop to see an off-road vehicle somewhere, anywhere, and see if it has a decal. Doesn't have to be off-road at the time. You live in Florida, and South Florida (at least) used to require smog tests because I had to get my car tested when I lived there in the early 2000s. They eliminated the smog tests but they wouldn't be that hard to put back IF the state was so inclined.

For pete's sake, nobody is going to get voted out of office for trying to regulate off-road vehicles. Very few people own them relative to the overall population, and they don't generate any great groundswell of sympathy among the rest of us when we can see the huge clouds they generate at their playground on the east side of Las Vegas. On weekends I can see the cloud of dust from my house 12-15 miles away.

And NONE of this addresses my primary point: Pollution is pollution, no matter the source.

[KX5062]

Why should emissions standards for off-road vehicles be different from those for on-road vehicles? Pollution is pollution, no matter the source. Consider a street-legal Jeep versus e.g., a Can-Am off-road vehicle. Both are used off-road but what rational reason is there for the Can-Am to be exempt while Jeep is not? If the pollution from these off-road vehicles is irrelevant, then why don't we also eliminate pollution controls for on-road vehicles? You call California "Commiefornia"? California is acting on behalf of the health of its citizens and will roll back the rules if the majority of its citizens vote that way. It's called "democracy." You want to see real Communism? Look at all the Chinese walking around Beijing wearing masks and buying oxygen bottles to breathe. Their government doesn't care and the people have no say in the matter. That's 180 degrees opposite of what you call "Commiefornia." You want that here? Seriously?

Off-road vehicles already DO have to be registered in NV, UT, AZ and CA (see, e.g., https://ohv.nv.gov/register, https://dmv.utah.gov/vehicles/atvs-dirt-bikes, https://www.ridenowpeoria.com/inform...y_registration). Since you were clearly wrong on that point, I didn't bother to research the rest of the U.S.

As for enforcement, NV and CA (to my personal knowledge) already require smog tests for on-road vehicles. There are smog testing stations all over Las Vegas already. Requiring tests for off-road vehicles as well would not create a "whole new bureaucracy," just more smog tests for the existing network. This is enforced by decals. It's not really that hard for a cop to see an off-road vehicle somewhere, anywhere, and see if it has a decal. Doesn't have to be off-road at the time. You live in Florida, and South Florida (at least) used to require smog tests because I had to get my car tested when I lived there in the early 2000s. They eliminated the smog tests but they wouldn't be that hard to put back IF the state was so inclined.

For pete's sake, nobody is going to get voted out of office for trying to regulate off-road vehicles. Very few people own them relative to the overall population, and they don't generate any great groundswell of sympathy among the rest of us when we can see the huge clouds they generate at their playground on the east side of Las Vegas. On weekends I can see the cloud of dust from my house 12-15 miles away.

And NONE of this addresses my primary point: Pollution is pollution, no matter the source.

First off, I'll try to refrain from getting overly political and stay with factual things. Secondly, I am very much an ardent environmentalist with a however. That however being it has to be practical as well as effective. It also has to be based on sound science and not pseudo-religion masquerading as environmental awareness. I was raised in LA during the bad old days when we couldn't play outside because the air was so bad it hurt to breathe and it made your eyes water. So, I lived it.

In California, motorcycles are NOT sound or emission tested. Nor are they tested in any way after sale. OHVs have a "green sticker" for registration. That program was instituted in the 1970's with the promise that you could ride on road for up to 5 miles or cross roads, so you could connect trails. Prior to this you legally couldn't. Plus, the money from the program was supposed to go into a specific fund to pay for the maintenance and EXPANSION of the OHV trail network. NONE of that happened. It would take too long to get further into it, and that doesn't even scratch the surface of the Red sticker program.

CARB and the EPA are bureaucracy first and foremost. They exist to regulate and expand their power and scope of their authority. As exhibited by the fact that the EPA has their own set of regulations that are significantly different than EURO standards. Is the air different in Europe versus the US? Is science different across the pond? Of course not. What's different is the bureaucracy. Now they clearly do some good work, and I'm not saying they don't. And, I'm not saying they were founded with a good idea or good intentions, but once in place bureaucratic principals take over. (I've lived that too.)

Also, CARB is now calling itself the "ARB". Big deal, right? Well, kinda is. The reason is because the CALIFORNIA air resources board is dropping the California part because they want to take over the regulation of air pollution for the ENTIRE Western United States and are actively trying to get the neighboring states to cede their sovereignty to them on a variety of issues. This is part of the reason the Trump administration is talking about clipping the wings of California and their federal exemptions.

Some small examples of regulations coming to you. The CARB mandates that there be something like 56 different gasoline blend just for this state. (There are 58 counties.) They also demand winter and summer blends of gas, plus all gasoline sold here must be refined here. No gas importation/no free market. There have been no new refineries built in something like 50 years, because they can't due to the bureaucrats. Just like California can't import electricity because you can't insure that the source of the electricity conforms to California clean air standards.

Now as to the emission testing. If the goal was truly clean air, then why not test a tailpipe, if it's clean, good to go. This is the standard in other places. In Commiefornia they really don't care about the tailpipe, they just want to make sure you have all of the factory equipment and have not modified it. Sure you have to "pass" the sniffer test, but not really. If you have all of the factory equipment and its determined to work, then you get a waiver and you pass. Of course, all of this costs money. Which is the real reason for all of this. California can not live within a budget (sound familiar?), so they dream up ways to extract more money from the public and conceal their real intent.

I could go on, but I'll leave it there.

Now to OHV specifically (the passion of my youth), I'll try to be brief. The amount of pollution emitted from all OHVs is not even measurable as compared to on road vehicles, because you have to take into account engine size and miles driven, which they do not. A long multi-day off road ride might be a hundred miles. I won't count dual sporting because those vehicle have to have license plates. Then you compared a Jeep versus a Can Am OHV. However, you don't take engine displacement into account, mechanical complexity, reliability, performance, weight, etc. So I believe your comparison is inaccurate.

True story. About 20 years ago (when 2 strokes were still super popular) CARB decided to test off road vehicle emissions to get some data because they wanted to regulate them. So, they placed monitoring stations within the Gorman OHV park outside of LA, instead of any other OHV park. The ambient air is already a little dirtier than normal because the park is just outside of the LA basin, plus it's dusty and next to the I5 corridor (lots of long haul trucking). Surprise, surprise. The air was very clean and obviously did not conform to their desires. So, they redid the test. Only this time they placed the monitoring stations ON the Interstate 5 corridor and at public bus stops in downtown LA, not IN the park. Not only that, the devices were placed 18' above ground on the up hill side of the steep grade (known as the Grape Vine). Guess what? SHOCKINGLY, the results were totally different and now justified their regulations. The only reason this became known was because of a whistle blower who was totally fed up with the lies. The reaction by the public (non OHV community) and politicians? YAWN. And, now that false data is still used by environmentalists to justify OHV pollution regulations.

Again, I could go on, but I won't ya'll get the idea.

Anyway, Happy Easter to all.

[Joe T.]

Sorry, - - - - - -, I'll sell you a bridge cheap.

So, how much is that bridge and where is it? I've always wanted my own bridge. I plan to live under it when I become completely senile!!!

Joe T.

[Lew L]

Soon enough we won't be able to "legally" change our oil or spark plugs. It's a slippery slope when we let the HUGE federal government keep snipping away at our " persute of happiness".

I dis-like " loud pipes" . Dosen't matter shattered style of bike they are on either. But I don't want my bikes to sound like sewing machines. AND----- I don't think " loud pipes save lives"

Lew L

[AMTJIM]

The original GS exhaust that met federal standards would have burns and holes form, there was a Hindle exhaust for the GS that was offered supposedly for off road use and it had problems. Slip joint gaskets that failed at the mid-pipe(Honda parts worked better) and exhaust connection. Later models had Akropovich exhaust available.

[Lew L]

Not to pick at nits------ but there are only 2 counties in Nevada that require smog tests for on road vehicals. Clark co. ( Las Vegas ) and Washoe co. ( Reno/ Sparks) No smog tests in the other 14 counties.

[Gwolf]

The off road vehicles I see are mostly used on farms. They could be considered farm vehicles.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

If it weren't ca. doing it then it would be ny
can't wait to retire & move to nc

[asp125]

My right to own and use aftermarket exhausts shall not be infringed! They'll have to pry my pipes from my cold, dead, hands!

[WisconsinDavid]

Just wait for the time to come when it is decided that for the best of society people may no longer ride motorcycles. Be careful allowing them to chip away at us, a little here and a little there, determined by what some feel is best for "society." That doesn't always end well or where you expected.