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  1. #51
    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 007james View Post
    I love Loud Pipes, and I ride a Harley Heritage with after market loud Pipes, ...

    Loud Pipes warns both Deer and Turkeys, and when on my Harley, I at least have a better chance of not hitting them. I also ride my Spyder RT Limited, which is quiet , and Deer or Turkeys never hear me coming until I get right up to them, then its too late if I don’t react in time. I am now 77, so my reaction time is in slow motion!! I did hit a Deer in Nov. 2016 with my Spyder, and had $1300 damage on my Spyder, and broke both of the Deer’s back legs running over them, after he jumped out in front of me. I never even seen him until after I hit him, and I took the ditch! Had I had my Harley with loud pipes, that would never have happened.
    What I've never quite figured is this. Which end of the Harley is most often involved in an accident? The front end, right? From which end is the loud pipe noise coming from? The rear, right? And it comes out in a tight sound pressure cone because of the tailpipe design. So, since almost all the noise is projected rearward, and most all of the accident causes are well in front, how much of the loud pipe noise really travels forward to warn critters?

    The value of loud pipes is grossly oversold, IMO, and used mostly to justify a desire to be noticed and seen as macho.

    2014 Copper RTS

    Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
    2014 RTS , Copper! (officially Cognac)

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    What I've never quite figured is this. Which end of the Harley is most often involved in an accident? The front end, right? From which end is the loud pipe noise coming from? The rear, right? And it comes out in a tight sound pressure cone because of the tailpipe design. So, since almost all the noise is projected rearward, and most all of the accident causes are well in front, how much of the loud pipe noise really travels forward to warn critters?

    The value of loud pipes is grossly oversold, IMO, and used mostly to justify a desire to be noticed and seen as macho.
    This logic will be no doubt lost on the obnoxious organ donor crowd who will use any excuse to justify their selfish, antisocial behavior.
    2014 RTL Platinum


  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN View Post
    Can you tell me if you can get fined for farting or burping in public?
    No, I can't. But you might.
    2014 RTL Platinum


  4. #54
    Active Member Wahrsuul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    What I've never quite figured is this. Which end of the Harley is most often involved in an accident? The front end, right? From which end is the loud pipe noise coming from? The rear, right? And it comes out in a tight sound pressure cone because of the tailpipe design. So, since almost all the noise is projected rearward, and most all of the accident causes are well in front, how much of the loud pipe noise really travels forward to warn critters?

    The value of loud pipes is grossly oversold, IMO, and used mostly to justify a desire to be noticed and seen as macho.
    I've made this argument as few times, but it's wasted on those who want some justification for what they wanted to do anyway.
    2014 RT-S , Orange

  5. #55
    Very Active Member BoilerAnimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsimion View Post
    Your freedom should not cost me money. Seemingly helmet laws are a clear infringement of freedom. But it's not that simple. Riders who don't wear helmets statistically suffer worse injuries in accidents. This costs more money for medical bills. Medical bills cost insurance companies money. If insurance companies pay out more money, they raise the rates for all of us. So in some sense helmet laws prevent riders from infringing on OUR right not to pay more for medical insurance.
    Another way not wearing a helmet can affect the population at large is through increased taxes due to a severely injured rider becoming dependent on Medicaid for long term care. So we get hit twice for someone's refusal to be "burdened" with refusing to wear a helmet.
    On the road again...........and forever young!

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  6. #56
    Active Member 007james's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    What I've never quite figured is this. Which end of the Harley is most often involved in an accident? The front end, right? From which end is the loud pipe noise coming from? The rear, right? And it comes out in a tight sound pressure cone because of the tailpipe design. So, since almost all the noise is projected rearward, and most all of the accident causes are well in front, how much of the loud pipe noise really travels forward to warn critters?

    The value of loud pipes is grossly oversold, IMO, and used mostly to justify a desire to be noticed and seen as macho.
    My Harley is as loud by the front or rear , and can be heard a Block away, so your argument is pure conjecture. My wife can hear me coming home from 1/4 miles away, so can Deer. You have either a blind spot, or your ears hear backwards. ��
    2016 RT Limited , Black & Lava Bronze

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 007james View Post
    My Harley is as loud by the front or rear , and can be heard a Block away, so your argument is pure conjecture. My wife can hear me coming home from 1/4 miles away, so can Deer. You have either a blind spot, or your ears hear backwards. ��
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  8. #58
    Very Active Member KX5062's Avatar
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    And, my Harley is bone stock. (2018 Heritage Classic)
    2020 RTL SE6

    Previously 2008 GS SM5 and 2014 RT SE6






  9. #59
    Very Active Member wyliec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 007james View Post
    My Harley is as loud by the front or rear , and can be heard a Block away, so your argument is pure conjecture. My wife can hear me coming home from 1/4 miles away, so can Deer. You have either a blind spot, or your ears hear backwards. ��
    "Sound waves in air vibrate parallel to the direction that the sound wave moves." All that means is, if your exhaust is pointed back (like it typically is), most of the sound you hear (while the bike is in motion) will be behind you. That is not to say someone in front won't hear it; it's just not as loud.

    I did check my ears in the mirror, and I think they are on correctly.

  10. #60
    Active Member 007james's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyliec View Post
    "Sound waves in air vibrate parallel to the direction that the sound wave moves." All that means is, if your exhaust is pointed back (like it typically is), most of the sound you hear (while the bike is in motion) will be behind you. That is not to say someone in front won't hear it; it's just not as loud.

    I did check my ears in the mirror, and I think they are on correctly.
    If you were a Deer in the Blue Ridge Mountains and were thinking about crossing the road, my Harley would be heard 10 times better than my Spyder from 1/4 mile away, front or rear. Trees, Mountains, Boulders, all effect sound , depending on echos, Deflection, absorption, etc,. Your Science example is not any more convincing than if we were in an elevator together with 10 other people and I farted out loud, not a slider ,and that only those behind me would try to blame me as I kept pointing at you! 😂 When you fire a Shot Gun, is the sound louder at the Butt, or the front discharge of the Barrel as the Bullet exits ? If you were a Deer standing 1/4 away, would you care ? The Deer would run from the loudest noise, front or rear of the shot. My Harley would be a 12 Gauge Shot Gun while my Spyder would be a 22 Short.
    2016 RT Limited , Black & Lava Bronze

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by 007james View Post
    If you were a Deer in the Blue Ridge Mountains and were thinking about crossing the road, my Harley would be heard 10 times better than my Spyder from 1/4 mile away, front or rear. Trees, Mountains, Boulders, all effect sound , depending on echos, Deflection, absorption, etc,. Your Science example is not any more convincing than if we were in an elevator together with 10 other people and I farted out loud, not a slider ,and that only those behind me would try to blame me as I kept pointing at you! �� When you fire a Shot Gun, is the sound louder at the Butt, or the front discharge of the Barrel as the Bullet exits ? If you were a Deer standing 1/4 away, would you care ? The Deer would run from the loudest noise, front or rear of the shot. My Harley would be a 12 Gauge Shot Gun while my Spyder would be a 22 Short.
    In my opinion, this sort of dangerous nonsense doesn't belong here. Even if it is said in jest.
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  12. #62
    Very Active Member ARtraveler's Avatar
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    How many of you think that one person is doing his best to mess up this discussion?

    Is it time to close this down, or to put someone on vacation for a week or so????

    You can PM me.

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  13. #63
    Very Active Member Gwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 007james View Post
    If you were a Deer in the Blue Ridge Mountains and were thinking about crossing the road, my Harley would be heard 10 times better than my Spyder from 1/4 mile away, front or rear. Trees, Mountains, Boulders, all effect sound , depending on echos, Deflection, absorption, etc,. Your Science example is not any more convincing than if we were in an elevator together with 10 other people and I farted out loud, not a slider ,and that only those behind me would try to blame me as I kept pointing at you! 😂 When you fire a Shot Gun, is the sound louder at the Butt, or the front discharge of the Barrel as the Bullet exits ? If you were a Deer standing 1/4 away, would you care ? The Deer would run from the loudest noise, front or rear of the shot. My Harley would be a 12 Gauge Shot Gun while my Spyder would be a 22 Short.


    Deer all over the place here where I live. I rode a Harley for 25 years before I bought the Spyder. Yeah, maybe the deer can hear the Harley better, but all it seems to do is make them run back and forth across the road in front of you, because it scares them and they can't make up their minds which way they want to go. If there is half a dozen deer in a herd crossing the road, you need to almost stop, because the ones that didn't get across already are going to be running in front of you and trying to stay with the rest of the herd. When I was working shift work I hit 4 deer at different times with my old truck that had dual glass packs on it.

    These are pictures from the lane 150 feet in front of my house.





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  14. #64
    Customer Support LeftCoast's Avatar
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    The only thing for sure is that Deer are idiots when it comes to anything other than a predator. They can't judge vehicle speed and movement worth a damn and will try to stay with the herd even if it means jumping in front of the car. As witnessed by me driving home from college with a doe spread across the grill of my car outside Steamboat Springs Colo.

    They will most likely hear the horn but I'm not sure that makes them do anything rational as far as what a human would do in response to it.
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARtraveler View Post
    How many of you think that one person is doing his best to mess up this discussion?

    Is it time to close this down, or to put someone on vacation for a week or so????

    You can PM me.
    Well, it IS pretty far off topic (the original topic was pollution, now it's all about Harley noise) but it DID veer away from political. I agree about the one-line retorts, but the subject (whether it be pollution or Harley noise) is still interesting enough that I'd hate to see the whole thread shut down. I say, "Continue the conversation but keep it civil."
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  16. #66
    Active Member 007james's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnsimion View Post
    Well, it IS pretty far off topic (the original topic was pollution, now it's all about Harley noise) but it DID veer away from political. I agree about the one-line retorts, but the subject (whether it be pollution or Harley noise) is still interesting enough that I'd hate to see the whole thread shut down. I say, "Continue the conversation but keep it civil."
    The solution to pollution is dilution. Harley Riders biggest Joys are loud Noise! They know how to steer to miss the Deer.
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  17. #67
    Very Active Member ARtraveler's Avatar
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    We are trying our best NOT to close this down. See post #46. A couple have went out of their way to try to stir things up. So far we are still watching. And....you picked up on my "subtle" caution.
    Last edited by ARtraveler; 04-24-2019 at 01:01 PM.

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  18. #68
    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Here's a good discussion about avoiding deer. Unfortunately, in the first video the loud exhaust of the Honda V-twin didn't keep him from hitting one.

    https://www.revzilla.com/common-trea...our-motorcycle

    2014 Copper RTS

    Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
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  19. #69
    Active Member 007james's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    Here's a good discussion about avoiding deer. Unfortunately, in the first video the loud exhaust of the Honda V-twin didn't keep him from hitting one.

    https://www.revzilla.com/common-trea...our-motorcycle
    Real scary videos! No doubt, there is is no time to react when they jump out in front of you from seemingly no where. That Honda was real quiet, as compared to my Harley. But Deer seem to be suicidal. I always expect more to follow after the first one crosses. Turkeys are worse than Deer when they jump out in front of you. I almost dumped my Harley a couple of times when I only jammed the rear brakes and slid side ways before recovering. The Speed Limit on the Blue Ridge Parkway is 45 MPH Max., so does make it easier to look for Deer or other creatures. Squirrels are the worst, but they are too small to dump you. But truthfully , when riding either my Harley or Spyder on the Country roads in Virginia , Deer are my greatest concern to watch out for. But I feel much more alert with loud pipes! They keep me awake , and I am not sitting in front or in back of the Pipes, but safe on top! So loud pipes keep me alert even if Deer don’t hear hear them.
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  20. #70
    Active Member Wahrsuul's Avatar
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    Aaaaand some people don't take subtle hints very well. I think I'm done here. I have more to say on the subject, but... seems pointless.
    2014 RT-S , Orange

  21. #71
    Customer Support LeftCoast's Avatar
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    So FWIW in my opinion, and this is a general observation and directed at no one, is its rare when someone’s mind actually gets changed about a topic on a message board unless there is data and it proves something unequivocally one way or the other, and even then people will dig in. Mods are fine with a difference of opinion if it’s expressed respectfully.

    We’re even more fine when folks agree to disagree and leave it at that.
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  22. #72
    Active Member 007james's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
    So FWIW in my opinion, and this is a general observation and directed at no one, is its rare when someone’s mind actually gets changed about a topic on a message board unless there is data and it proves something unequivocally one way or the other, and even then people will dig in. Mods are fine with a difference of opinion if it’s expressed respectfully.

    We’re even more fine when folks agree to disagree and leave it at that.
    Maybe ending the Loud Pipe discussion on Neutral ground might satisfy all sides and end the argument. Deer are not the only lives saved by loud pipes.
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tango View Post
    Read this on an Indian Forum. HD is now enforcing EPA Laws in regards to tampering with emissions on bikes still under warranty. A letter was sent out to CA. dealers regarding this. Owners that go in for service are getting their warranties voided if engine management systems are tampered with. Carb rules are much stricter than the rest of the USA. Tom
    I went to a Factory Honda engines service school I would say about 10 years ago for my dealership. They were talking about all the EPA stuff that is on their engines from restrictor caps on carburetors to just the EPA label that is on the engine. Honda mentioned it is the dealers responsibility to make sure it stays all in tact, and not tampered with. As a dealer I could get heavily fined from the EPA. Even if the EPA sticker is missing from an engine I am supposed to replace it. If I had visit from the EPA and I had units in missing the tag that had been already worked on I could be be fined.

    I must have a 1/2 dozen or more tamper proof carburetor adjustment tools in my box now. These tools are sold all over Ebay / Amazon (Online in general). As a dealer I am not allowed to sell these tools to anyone. I could be subject to I believe up to a $5000.00 dollar fine. I can not tell you how many letters I have received from different OEM companies that I am an authorized dealer for regarding the sale of these tools, and the fines that could result from me selling them to the public. I can not tell you how many irritated customers walk in my dealership mad that I won't sell them a tool to adjust their carburetor. To me its not worth the risk of the fine.

    I could easily see Harley starting to clamp down in California where they are the strictest with the air quality (CARB). I am sure CARB people are working with a lot of OEM motorcycle, power equipment manufactures to come up with a way to keep the emission systems in check, and not tampered with.

    I have been in business a long time, I have seen many changes in emission advancements being implicated. In my opinion the end result from the EPA is that they don't want anyone not trained working on engines anymore, and that is the ultimate goal until they rid us of the evil combustion engine.

    An engine according to the EPA puts out an amount of emissions that the EPA tested and approved prior to that engine being able to be sold to the public. When people tamper with these engines the amount of pollution coming from them can change, and is no longer what the EPA approved prior to that engine being able to be sold to the public.

    Consumers don't always understand what dealers are responsible for. I hear a lot of customers not happy that they can't do a simple adjustment on their carburetor anymore, as they could always do it in the past. I don't agree completely with all this EPA stuff, but it is what it is I have to do what the EPA wants as a dealership.

    I think the biggest take away from limiting people from fixing, modifying, or whatever you want to call it, is the fact it limits creativity. I see tuning an engine, or building a custom vehicle in anyway as a form of art. I myself can not paint or draw worth a darn, but I can surly tune an engine, and that is music to my ears

  24. #74
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    Back in the 90's I built a 383 stroker out of a 350 for my 78 vet. 10 to 1 compression with a light cam so it would satisfy smog requirements at the time. It has some where between 383 and 400 HP. Today after it comes home from the smog shop (it still passes smog with some adjustments) I'm probably chugging along closer to 383 hp at 16 mpg. Each time it's smogged I have to spend a hour or so at home readjusting the timing and carb to reclaim my performance and fuel millage. Properly tuned I get 19/20 mpg. On the other hand when I take my newer diesel truck in for smog I have to un-chip it a week or so before I take it in. The smog tech is an upfront and honest guy and I've been going to the same smog shop for a long time. These days there's little to be done other than a visual and a tailpipe test. The days of spending time with a spring kit, a timing light, vacuum gage and tach balancing out an engine are over. Dam, my wife's new Cherokee with the small hemi will leave my vet in the dust any day. She only gets 20 mpg also. Something tells me that if your dumping exhaust out at 16 mpg you're creating more pollution than if you were getting 20 mpg, but I guess carb doesn't see it that way.

  25. #75
    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2dogs View Post
    Something tells me that if your dumping exhaust out at 16 mpg you're creating more pollution than if you were getting 20 mpg, but I guess carb doesn't see it that way.
    Simple logic would say you're right, but like everything in life, nothing is simple. I'm no smog or chemical expert, but if CO2 and H2O were the only products of combustion we probably wouldn't have a pollution problem at all, except maybe with regard to amount of CO2 being dumped. But because of all the chemicals in the air and fuel the combustion process can get pretty complicated and changes in factors such as compression ratio and fuel to air mixture can change the output significantly. So it's all a balancing act. Remember back in the late 60's and early 70's? MPG was as low as 7 to 8 mpg for ordinary big boat cars. With the technology and understanding at that time excess fuel consumption actually reduced some recognized pollutant output levels. Higher mpg levels may result in higher toxic chemical levels while reducing CO2 and H2O.

    I suspect no one yet today knows exactly what all chemicals released into the atmosphere have what kind of adverse impact on plants, animals, and humans. As that understanding evolves so does the target for emissions.

    2014 Copper RTS

    Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
    2014 RTS , Copper! (officially Cognac)

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