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Thread: XPS engine oil

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    Default XPS engine oil

    I have a 14 RSS SE5. The manual states to use API SG, SH, SJ, or SL. And not to use API SM because clutch slippage may occur. A couple weeks ago, I ordered an XPS oil change kit on Ebay from a Can Am dealer. Says it's for a Spyder, but the quarts say API SM on the back. Is it safe for the bike? It's a genuine Can Am kit. Even the box it came in says it's for an SE5.
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    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyderman14RSS View Post
    I have a 14 RSS SE5. The manual states to use API SG, SH, SJ, or SL. And not to use API SM because clutch slippage may occur. A couple weeks ago, I ordered an XPS oil change kit on Ebay from a Can Am dealer. Says it's for a Spyder, but the quarts say API SM on the back. Is it safe for the bike? It's a genuine Can Am kit. Even the box it came in says it's for an SE5.
    WOW - the 998 series engine ( clutches ) don't like " SM " rated oils .. so I'm surprised that XPS is " SM " there are quite a few other brands of oil ( full synthetic ) that are rated higher than the XPS . Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    WOW - the 998 series engine ( clutches ) don't like " SM " rated oils ….. so I'm surprised that XPS is " SM " …… there are quite a few other brands of oil ( full synthetic ) that are rated higher than the XPS …………………. Mike
    I was surprised too. The box even says the oil will ensure optimum wet clutch operation. Maybe this is "new" oil that BRP modified to work with the SE5. Hate having 4.5 quarts of oil that I can't use. It's part number 779248.
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    Very Active Member Chupaca's Avatar
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    Default Interesting....🤔

    I've been ordering xps from online and they all come from dealers with no issues. More so being mine is manual I would have noticed the change in the clutch right away if there were any. I do have to say I did not read the lable and have a change coming up at 42,200 and will have to read the spec's on the oil on hand....To tell the truth I have not seen or heard of an oil related problem when using XPS and if there were BRP would be on the hook..... unless it is a low or overfilled problem....
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    I just got off the phone with the dealer that I purchased the oil from. I talked to the service department, and the guy said I got the same oil kit that he uses in the Spyders they service. It's just a different bottle and rebranding, but it's the same oil. He said my manual is probably just outdated, and this is what BRP is using now. He even gave me the part number from the Spyder catalog for just a single quart (779133). I looked it up and it's API SM as well. So I think it'll be safe to use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyderman14RSS View Post
    I just got off the phone with the dealer that I purchased the oil from. I talked to the service department, and the guy said I got the same oil kit that he uses in the Spyders they service. It's just a different bottle and rebranding, but it's the same oil. He said my manual is probably just outdated, and this is what BRP is using now. He even gave me the part number from the Spyder catalog for just a single quart (779133). I looked it up and it's API SM as well. So I think it'll be safe to use.
    I would highly doubt that your manual is 'Outdated'. I can assure you that oil properties that would slip your clutch in 2014, will slip that same clutch in 2019. The truth is, not all SM rated oils will slip the clutch on an SM5/SE5 transmission. Just that nearly all of them will. I assume that is why BRP prohibited the use of an SM rated oil in these machines. Again, assuming (and you know where that can get you), BRP's SM rated oil will not slip the clutch on a 998 V-Twin.

    The 1330 clutch suffers no such issues and can use pretty much any SM rated oil as long as the other parameters are met. So what you have will work just fine in everything BRP produces today. And you wouldn't think BRP would sell an oil for the SM5/SE5 that would slip the clutch.

    So, you are left with a lot of 'If's' and assumptions. But my guess is the oil you have will work fine in your 998. But don't hold me to it if I am wrong....
    Last edited by BajaRon; 03-09-2019 at 11:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    The 1330 clutch suffers no such issues and can use pretty much any SM rated oil as long as the other parameters are met.
    Is the 1330 clutch NOT still a "wet" one ??
    My ride: '17 Spyder RT

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    Yes, the 1330 clutch is a wet one. I would suspect the clutch plates are made of different material that is not susceptible to slipping as is stated in the various SE5 transmission Spyders.

    Regarding the dealership's comment that the SM oil is what they use in all the Spyders they service, if it were my RSS, before I would consider using it I would contact brp.care@brp.com, give them the dealership name and address and the part number of the kit, explain exactly what the dealership said and ask them to verify the accuracy of what the dealership told me. I would further ask BRP Care to verify that if my RSS clutch began to slip after using the SM oil that BRP would direct the dealership to replace the clutch at no expense to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayBros View Post
    Yes, the 1330 clutch is a wet one. I would suspect the clutch plates are made of different material that is not susceptible to slipping as is stated in the various SE5 transmission Spyders.

    Regarding the dealership's comment that the SM oil is what they use in all the Spyders they service, if it were my RSS, before I would consider using it I would contact brp.care@brp.com,
    The second comment is good; the first one, not so much.

    Friction reducers, also referred to as "energy conserving" should NOT be used in any engine with a wet clutch.
    An SM designation on the oil does not necessarily mean that it has that.......or has very little.

    "Super slippery" components of the oil affect ALL the moving parts, including the clutch plates and it makes no difference what they are made of.
    My ride: '17 Spyder RT

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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Rider View Post
    Is the 1330 clutch NOT still a "wet" one ??
    As already stated by others, Yes, the 1330 has a wet clutch. BRP changed the friction plate compounds, engagement pressure, etc., to accommodate a wider range of lubricants and lubricant additives/ratings. I assume that they took note of the 998 Rotax wet clutch issues and made changes. Most wet clutch motorcycles do not have issues with lubricants that will slip the 998 clutch. It could also be that BRP knew they were going to an SM rated oil and engineered the new 1330 clutch with that in mind.

    Getting BRP to tell you what their thought process is or was is an exercise in futility. So, speculation is all that is left.

    But I would agree with JayBros. I'd get some kind of official ruling on using their SM rated oil in an SM5/SE5, (in writing if possible - good luck with that!). If your clutch starts slipping, it's not a cheap fix.
    Last edited by BajaRon; 03-10-2019 at 01:11 PM.
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    I look for JASO MA2 in the specs on an oil jug. That indicates it's good to use in motorcycles with wet clutches and cats.
    Ours is a red, black and chrome 2017 F3 Limited. Bought new in 2/2019. The avatar is my first bike back in 1952, a Simplex Servi-Cycle. Photo taken at the Barber Museum.

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    Part#779248 is correct for the SE5 spyders. It is BRPs new kits replacing part #219800263 & 219800208 .
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    When I change my oil in about 2000 miles, if I haven't gotten a solid answer from BRP, I'll just get five quarts of a different oil. Cheaper than needing clutch work. Thanks for the input guys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel The Biker View Post
    Part#779248 is correct for the SE5 spyders. It is BRPs new kits replacing part #219800263 & 219800208 .
    That's what I read too, but just wondered about the SM classification.
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    OK Folks, This question is for the Ryker Rally. There is a CVT so not a wet clutch and I am an Amsoil long time user in other motorcycles that have wet clutches. Since I do not need the clutch friction modifier can I use a "Slippery" motorcycle syn. oil that may be better suited for this engine? Not interested in car oils that may not be intended for the constant higher revs. Any motorcycle oil brand suggestions? Don't mean to steel the thread but, we are still talking about oil. cueman

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    Quote Originally Posted by cueman View Post
    OK Folks, This question is for the Ryker Rally. There is a CVT so not a wet clutch and I am an Amsoil long time user in other motorcycles that have wet clutches. Since I do not need the clutch friction modifier can I use a "Slippery" motorcycle syn. oil that may be better suited for this engine? Not interested in car oils that may not be intended for the constant higher revs. Any motorcycle oil brand suggestions? Don't mean to steel the thread but, we are still talking about oil. cueman
    Check your owners manual. It gives you all the specs. for your oil. Anything else is buyer-be-ware.

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    Yes, it says 5w-40 XPS and I'm looking for a better oil since a dry clutch will not be an issue. Should be some super slippery oil for dry clutch motorcycle engines that will perform better. Hoping for suggestions. cueman

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    Quote Originally Posted by cueman View Post
    Yes, it says 5w-40 XPS and I'm looking for a better oil since a dry clutch will not be an issue. Should be some super slippery oil for dry clutch motorcycle engines that will perform better. Hoping for suggestions. cueman
    Many Spyder riders and motorcyclists, including your's truly, use Rotella T-6 with great results. It's JASO MA2 rated. very long lasting, has a very heavy engine protecting additive package, helps shifting and lifters and is kind to wet clutches.
    Ours is a red, black and chrome 2017 F3 Limited. Bought new in 2/2019. The avatar is my first bike back in 1952, a Simplex Servi-Cycle. Photo taken at the Barber Museum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    If your clutch starts slipping, it's not a cheap fix.
    And.....I suspect that designing a clutch that would be immune to the affects of moly sticking to the plates would be next to impossible.......since the stuff apparently sticks to other metal parts inside the engine.

    This is probably going to turn out OK......because all SM rated oil does not contain things that are bad for clutches; many but not all.
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    Contact Bajaron, he is an Amsoil dealer and a Ryker owner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cueman View Post
    Yes, it says 5w-40 XPS and I'm looking for a better oil since a dry clutch will not be an issue. Should be some super slippery oil for dry clutch motorcycle engines that will perform better. Hoping for suggestions. cueman
    https://www.walmart.com/ip/Valvoline...SABEgKEcvD_BwE

    I have used this 100 hours in my 900cc Spark Jet Ski and New GTI 900cc and it works fine- Used in high end sports cars?
    Cheap, Local buy for most. I think using Jaso MA2 in the Ryker is counterproductive. IMO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highwayman2013 View Post
    Contact Bajaron, he is an Amsoil dealer and a Ryker owner.
    Here is my conversation with Amsoil on the subject. I am not necessarily impressed with this answer. I am not saying it is not correct. I am sure the Amsoil MCF oil recommended will work very well, just as it has in the Spyder engines. But this answer seems a bit disconnected and circular to me. I am also a bit disappointed in the lack of reasons as to why this answer is given.

    This may simply be the safe answer. I am OK with safe answers. And I understand why the safe answer may be in Amsoil's best interest. But I also like 'Out of the Box' possibilities, when they apply. Plus there is always the possibility that my disappointment may lie in the fact that I did not get the answer I expected. I will let you be the judge on this one.

    Original Question to Amsoil
    Ron Athon
    Can-Am has just come out with a new 3 wheeled vehicle called the Ryker. The Ryker uses a water cooled engine, as does the Spyder. But the Ryker has a CVT which is separate from the engine and uses gear oil. So the Ryker does not have a wet clutch or transmission utilizing the engine oil, as does the Spyder. Yet BRP/Can-Am recommends the same 5w-40 blended oil which is (Unnecessarily) JASO rated for the Ryker. My question is, would a lubricant such as the Signature, XL or other engine lubricant have an advantage over a lubricant engineered for transmission and wet clutch duties in this case? I know there are friction modifiers in engine only oils which cannot be used in wet clutch applications. Thank you.

    Answer
    Evan Kovala
    Technical Services Representative
    Using the Signature Series or XL oils will not have any advantage in this application and are not recommended. Can Am is still recommended an oil with the correct wet-clutch specification and friction characteristics.

    Followup
    Ron Athon
    So you would recommend a wet clutch + transmission engineered lubricant be used in an application where there is no wet clutch or transmission? Interesting. My customers have been using the MCF 10w-40 oil in their Spyders, which do have a need for wet clutch & transmission lubrication. I am surprised that you recommend this same oil for the Ryker, where it need lubricate the engine only.

    Reply
    Evan Kovala
    Technical Services Representative
    AMSOIL recommends the 10w-40 Synthetic Metric Motor Cycle Oil, product code MCF.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So, there you have it folks. Short and sweet!
    Last edited by BajaRon; 03-10-2019 at 02:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaRon View Post
    So, there you have it folks. Short and sweet!
    And CYA simple.
    Penned, no doubt, by a minimum wage employee who barely understands what a "wet clutch" really is.......and is paid to copy answers out of a book.

    P.S. The original question was about a '14 RSS, SE5.
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    Dear Ron, I respect your knowledge on Oils.... But you have to take the answers you received in context …. they probably came from someone, who actually has little knowledge of what they are talking about..... There is info from actual engineers and then there is info disseminated from the corporate Lawyers ( ie. CYA ) we get this info from BRP - ALL the Time...…… jmho ….. Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Rider View Post
    And CYA simple.
    Penned, no doubt, by a minimum wage employee who barely understands what a "wet clutch" really is.......and is paid to copy answers out of a book.
    OUCH! But pretty much what I was trying to convey... Maybe I was too polite about it. Thanks for the clarification!

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Rider View Post
    P.S. The original question was about a '14 RSS, SE5.
    Point well taken. Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Apples and oranges on this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    Dear Ron, I respect your knowledge on Oils.... But you have to take the answers you received in context …. they probably came from someone, who actually has little knowledge of what they are talking about..... There is info from actual engineers and then there is info disseminated from the corporate Lawyers ( ie. CYA ) we get this info from BRP - ALL the Time...…… jmho ….. Mike
    Totally agree. In my opinion, their answer is no answer at all. My feeling is that we are still at square 1 on this subject.

    Just to clarify that all of this is in regards to the Ryker and has nothing to do with the SE5 question in the original post (or any Spyder year or model for that matter). Amsoil 10w-40 MCF motorcycle oil is the only Amsoil product that should be used in the Spyder. Instead of responding to the Ryker question here. It may have been better to start a new thread. I apologize.
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