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  1. #1
    Active Member QuasiMotard's Avatar
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    Default Results from Can-Am/BRP engineer conference call

    Good afternoon, all! I had a conference call with the BRP engineers about the Ryker platform earlier this month (2019-02-08). We had a very good discussion and we had follow-up items that I sent in an email to get further information or clarification. The response email came back yesterday afternoon, so I will present a sanitized version (reversed the chronology, removed names and email addresses) here for everyone to review... skip to the bottom for the original list of questions.

    From: BRP
    Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 12:17 PM
    To: QuasiMotard
    Subject: ryker

    Hi QuasiMotard,

    I was made aware that you seem to be having some issues with your new Ryker? Looking at a technical case for your unit in our system, I took the liberty to talk to your dealership and they gave me a little more information. I am now thinking that we could have a talk you and I. Would that be something that you would appreciate?

    To make this happen, I would need your daytime availabilities and also for to you confirm that I can call you at this number: xxx-xxx-xxxx. Please note that time zone wise, I am on eastern time, 1 hour ahead of you.

    I will be waiting for your response.

    Have a great day!

    -------------------

    From: QuasiMotard
    Sent: Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 1:30 PM
    To: BRP
    Subject: RE: ryker

    Good afternoon! Thank you for returning my request/complaint! I am more than willing and ready to have someone from BRP to speak with! I am available almost any time by cell phone (listed below), or by email. You can reach me any day from 06:00 to 23:00 CDT (US/Central timezone).

    I LOVE the Ryker and I want it to succeed, both for myself and for other users. My unit has some definite issues that need to be addressed, both mechanically and in dealer setup/prep that was improper. I have been chronicling the issues on YouTube as a hobby… the response has been overwhelming from the community (both positive and negative).

    I look forward to your call or correspondence!

    Thank you,
    QuasiMotard

    ----------------------

    From: BRP
    Sent: Friday, February 08, 2019 7:58 AM
    To: QuasiMotard
    Subject: Re: ryker

    Call is confirmed at 1pm your time today.

    On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 8:11 AM BRP wrote:
    Hi QuasiMotard, just waiting confirmation from the Ryker/Spyder product specialist, but for now I have scheduled the call for today, 1pm, your time.

    I'll keep you posted.

    Thank you!

    ----------------------

    From: QuasiMotard
    Sent: Friday, February 08, 2019 8:36 AM
    To: BRP
    Subject: RE: ryker

    Great! I will be ready with a few questions. Thanks again for arranging the call, and I look forward to speaking with your team!

    Thank you,
    QuasiMotard

    ----------------------

    From: QuasiMotard
    Sent: Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 4:01 PM
    To: BRP
    Good afternoon! Thank you for your time this afternoon. This is a list of the issues that I wanted to discuss. Most of them were touched upon in today’s meeting, and others are suggestions on BRP-to-consumer interactions. Let me know if you have any questions or concerns and I will be happy to discuss them and work with you.

    Observed mechanical issues with Ryker:

    [LIST OF ISSUES FOLLOWS WITH BRP'S INLINE RESPONSES BELOW...]

    ----------------------

    From: BRP
    Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 7:20 AM
    To: QuasiMotard
    Subject: Re: ryker

    Thank you for the follow-up QuasiMotard, adding xxxx in cc so that he can reply to you directly.

    Have a great week!

    ----------------------

    From: QuasiMotard
    Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 7:23 AM
    To: BRP
    Subject: RE: ryker

    Great! Thanks again for reaching out to me. I will be sure to let everyone in the community (e.g. forums and YouTube viewers) know that you (BRP) is engaged and addressing the issues/concerns!

    Thank you,
    QuasiMotard

    ----------------------

    From: QuasiMotard
    Sent: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 at 16:36
    To: BRP
    Subject: RE: ryker

    Good afternoon! I am just checking back with you about our conversation several days ago to see if you have had any time to review the questions that I listed below. Also, there are some new developments through my YouTube channel about owner issues that have arisen in the past few days.

    I dropped off my Ryker at Wild West Motoplex this morning to have them install the new BRP swaybar accessory. When I arrived, another Ryker owner (YouTube viewer) sent me a message about a problem they had with the indicator light wiring harness being chafed/damaged by the tire on their Ryker. Their dealer is remediating the issue already.

    I asked my dealer to check my Ryker, and they found the same routing and clearance issue. My harness hasn't been damaged yet, but they recommended a modification to prevent it from contacting the tire. They drilled a small hole in the underside supports and then zip-tied the harness to the plastic to give extra clearance (see the attached photo).

    Many owners (and prospective buyers) are contacting me to know if BRP is aware of some of these issues. I am happy to act as a liaison, as long as this doesn't cause a problem for BRP. Of course, I am recommending any owners with mechanical issues to contact their dealers and/or BRP directly.

    Let me know if you have any questions or concerns.

    Thank you,
    QuasiMotard

    ----------------------

    From: BRP
    Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 2:00 PM
    To: QuasiMotard
    Subject: Re: ryker

    Good day QuasiMotard,

    First I'd like to apologize for the response delay, I've many things going on right now including 2 bikes show that I attend. I can tell you that the Ryker hit a home run at these bike shows. People just love it!

    Regarding the topics that you raise up, I did look at all of them and here is a resume;

    1. Loud mechanical clunk when engaging forward or reverse (reverse is particularly nasty). An example is visible/audible in this YouTube clip:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDRlsJehqNs&t=745s
    The clutch system has been designed specifically for the Ryker and this noise is totally normal and can be heard on all Rykers. Note that this engagement noise won’t affect powertrain components life.
    2. Mechanical clunk from rear end/final drive on every acceleration event (even over bumps), particularly loud under hard acceleration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDRlsJehqNs&t=589s (9:49) , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDRlsJehqNs&t=784s (13:04)
    This noise can be heard on other Rykers as well.
    3. Driveline groan (gear lash/gnash) on deceleration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDRlsJehqNs&t=385s (6:25)
    Again, this noise can be heard on all Rykers due to gear teeth pattern combined with compression load from the drivetrain. That behavior won’t affect gearbox’s life.
    4. Tail-wag during deceleration and/or braking, no input on handlebars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBTc_61bwgM&t=1260s (21:00) ,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBTc_61bwgM&t=1407s (23:27)
    Not sure to understand that one
    5. Alignment issues are evident through out the operating range, but particularly annoying above 35 MPH. There are examples throughout my ride videos, but a static coast-down (hands-off) test is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDRlsJehqNs&t=980s (16:20); high-speed stability is very erratic, watch the 3-minute segment of the following video from 13:30-16:30: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDRlsJehqNs&t=810s
    We have to be careful here. Driving a 3 wheels vehicle can be slightly different than a 2 wheels motorcycle. A 2 wheels bike always use the same driving line (wheels aligned on the same driving surface). The 3 wheels are individually on 3 differents surface and can give the effect of a bad alignment if the surfaces are uneven. I would compare with another 3 wheels unit to confirm this behavior.
    6. Are alignment verifications done at factory? Does the dealer have the ability/responsibility to verify during PDI?
    All Rykers are laser aligned on the production line. It is not part of the PDI to re-align the units. BRP design a service alignment laser tool that is available to all BRP dealers. Though this is not a mandatory tool, so it is possible that BRP dealers are using aftermarket alignment tools like Rolo or they can simply send it to an alignment shop that has their own tooling.
    7. Dealer education and sales procedures for advising customers of new/updated documentation (e.g. Operator's Manual)
    As mentioned in the owners guide, the electronic version can be found at:
    http://www.operatorsguides.brp.com which included all latest modification if there are any.
    8. Missing toolkit (mentioned in Operator's Manual, but not included with bike)
    The only tool provided with the Ryker is a flat screwdriver.
    9. Other markets have emergency flashers standard; will there be an option for US models?
    This is not an option (short term unless we have many request). Though, Russia’s standards required hazard kit # 219400932 that we might keep few kits available for the other Countries that would like to have it. I’ll check if that is possible.
    10. BRP needs better method of contacting owners with news of updates/revisions to owners manuals and manufacturer recalls (dealers aren't updating/advising the owners) properly. Social media, email lists, or other real-time communication would be preferred. The Ryker is marketed toward a younger riding audience, and that audience is a "NOW" generation that is accustomed to instant gratification and immediate updates via social media. My printed Operator’s Manual has numerous errors/omissions, as did the version that I downloaded on 1/19/2019. I see that BRP has released an updated manual recently that includes these omitted diagrams and procedures (e.g. gearbox oil check, final drive check, etc). How does BRP advise the owner/operator about these updates?
    The Online version is always the updated version since it is very easy to maintain. The customers can refer to it when needed. This is true for other products, as an example, I personnaly own a Ford Flex and Ford never sent an updated owner’s guide or never sent me an email saying that a revised version was available.

    For the recalls, BRP send mail letter to the owners when safety recalls affect their units. For the other bulletins, the dealers are the ones that manage it.

    BRP has a dedicated team that monitor the Social media and interacts when needed.
    11. Dealers aren't being advised/educated on some procedures; for example, the service manager at Mancuso South (Shanon) didn't know the proper procedure for performing the 2019-2 gearbox oil recall... he told me that the check was at the bottom of the threads for the FILL PLUG, not the check plug! I had to show him the documentation error in the Operator's Manual, and then follow-up with the pictures from the 2019-2 bulletin. He was very surprised.
    BRP does communicate to our dealer network through different chanel like BOSSWeb and the community when bulletins are published or revised. Now, some dealers are quicker than others to read the available documentation.
    12. Unusual squeaking during break-in period, presumably from CVT belt, only audible at engine idle (sitting still); the noise has disappeared after ~130 miles.
    This noise is totally normal on all units driven by a CVT system. The break-in period is different from each user due to their riding habits.
    13. The Operator's manual should make note of noises and peculiarities of the mechanicals if these behaviors are "normal" (e.g. driveline clunk when engaging forward/reverse, acceleration clunk in final drive, CVT belt squeaking, etc).
    This is not the objective of an owner’s guide. That kind of information can leads to different misinterpretation depending of the customers mechanical knowledge. The dealers are there to address that type of concerns.
    14. Email or social media notifications for Ryker owners (e.g. recall notices, TSB's, documentation updates, etc). This is a newer generation that expects real-time information and instant gratification; dealers are slow to receive and disseminate issues to buyers/owners). I have never received a call back from my dealer regarding any documentary updates or recalls for my unit.
    This is different from one dealer to another. Many reason may affect their communication that I won’t go through the details here.
    Feature requests and/or product improvements:

    Hand brake option: Does BRP have any intention of creating/adding a hand brake option as dealer-installed (factory-authorized) accessory? I have read numerous queries about adding a front brake lever to the Ryker. Some prospective buyers need it as a riding aid because of physical difficulty. I would like to see it as an option because the brake lever is an industry-standard, so all experienced riders have motor-memory/reflex to reach for that lever. It is also statistically/scientifically faster to reach for the brake lever than to move your foot to the pedal. I'm sure that it would need to be inline with the existing brake system (e.g. in parallel to existing master cylinder, with proportioning valve, check valves, etc), so it's not a trivial task. However, this isn’t new… Honda has done this for years with their scooters under the CBS (combined-braking system) name.

    Parking brake: Other Ryker markets have locking parking brake; will the US/NA versions have an option for lock kit on parking brake? High theft areas make the lack of a locking mechanism into a serious problem. There is nothing to prevent someone from releasing the brake and rolling the bike away. Motorcycles have a column lock, so it is more difficult to roll; the Ryker can be walked away without any real effort. (not good)

    Locking fuel door and/or trunk: Does BRP have any intention of creating an optional lock kit for the trunk and/or fuel door (vandalism prevention, school/college campuses, high traffic parking areas)?

    Lock for Max-Mount accessories: the tail bag and passenger seats are also a potential theft item if left unattended. Both are expensive accessories that have no security measure “baked-into” their design (no lock, locking bolt, or pin to secure them).

    I brought your suggestions to the proper engineering development team, who knows you might see some ideas growing for the next MY.
    Let me know if you have other questions, it will be a pleasure to help you out.
    Cheers,

    ---------------------

    From: QuasiMotard
    Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 2:14 PM
    To: BRP
    Subject: RE: ryker

    Great, thank you for the response. I will review this info and reply back if I have any other questions.

    As for the alignment issues on my Ryker, I have ridden other Can-Am Spyder RT’s and F3’s that did not exhibit this behavior. I was able to ride another Ryker 900 recently, and it does not wander as badly as mine does; it had more “play” than the F3/RT, but not nearly as bad as my Ryker Rally. I am waiting for my dealer or other local shops to receive their alignment kits in order to diagnose/adjust my Ryker. I will update you with the specs and tolerances of my unit when that is completed.

    Thank you,
    QuasiMotard
    --
    QM

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    You're a patient man.
    My new F3S was a wandering minstral not unlike what your vid's show from your Ryker.I asked the dealer about alignment and he gave me the contact number of a customer that had devised his own alignment tools because they didn't have the Rolo system to set mine up with!!!!!!!
    Instant downer moment, I felt let down and decided there and then that I would not bother the dealer again unless it was a warranty claim and everything else was going to be done by me.Fast forward I've purchased two cheap lasers, screwed together some targets watched the vid's on youtube and can report back my Spyder is now a cornering weapon with straight line manners and a way more relaxed ride than the evil son of a bitch that was delivered from the factory.
    I suspect many sales have been lost because a test ride is giving prospective purchasers an uneasy feeling and turning them away.Banging and clanging transmissions might be normal but it devalues the overall package feel for some, others couldn't care.If you can't feel a misalignment you probably haven't noticed the noises.
    BRP's call they know what the market will bear.
    2017 F3S Daytona , Circuit Yellow Metalic

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    Wow. Was yours made on Monday after a holiday or Friday before a holiday? i'm sorry your having so many issues. Great documentation for any such claim you may have. Not that I own one yet, I want to, but not if I have to deal with any of these issues. I'm 2 hours from closest dealer/mechanic to start.

    I know those noises would bug me, but after months of watching other video's I have not heard a lot of the sounds you have? The only one I heard before was the reverse engagement clunk. Good luck in your endeavors.

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    Active Member njfishfan's Avatar
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    The tail bag does come with an Allen screw which prevents someone from just moving lever and walking away with your tail bag.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    wow a lot of work and effort there for everybody help.thanks.ive worked in car dealers for many years and the standard line if a complaint came through was...we have not observed that issue so far,we suggest you take it up with the dealer.if the dealer could fix it i wouldnt be contacting the importer would i.the respones come across as smugg indifference nearly.maybe wrong there but thats my take on it.just as they want to appeal to a younger market by online contacts.that same younger market will be very quick to call out bad customer support and bike faults by online media.ive read comment about the bike is a cut price bike so accept some issues,that not really acceptable for any maker to produce a product that way.also on this forum,was the comment about every body doing beta testing for brp.yep sure we all know you should not buy the first of anything until they get the bugs out but a lot of what im reading is down to dealer pre delivery and knowledge.this sort of behaviour is what killed off the english bike market when the
    jap bikes cam on.we spyder riders seem to be a forgiving bunch but again the younger group will move on fast if the ride does not stack up to the lifestyle hype.there is little loyalty in the newer buyer .
    just my take on it.but i love my rt and yes i put up with the niggles.

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    Mine didn't come with the screw and it was sealed in the factory box. cueman

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    Active Member QuasiMotard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobwebs View Post
    You're a patient man.
    My new F3S was a wandering minstral not unlike what your vid's show from your Ryker.I asked the dealer about alignment and he gave me the contact number of a customer that had devised his own alignment tools because they didn't have the Rolo system to set mine up with!!!!!!!
    Instant downer moment, I felt let down and decided there and then that I would not bother the dealer again unless it was a warranty claim and everything else was going to be done by me.Fast forward I've purchased two cheap lasers, screwed together some targets watched the vid's on youtube and can report back my Spyder is now a cornering weapon with straight line manners and a way more relaxed ride than the evil son of a bitch that was delivered from the factory.
    I suspect many sales have been lost because a test ride is giving prospective purchasers an uneasy feeling and turning them away.Banging and clanging transmissions might be normal but it devalues the overall package feel for some, others couldn't care.If you can't feel a misalignment you probably haven't noticed the noises.
    BRP's call they know what the market will bear.
    Evil SOB is just about right... it's downright nasty sometimes. I'm a seasoned moto-veteran and this thing catches me out sometimes... I can't imagine what a new or inexperienced rider would think or what might happen in a panicked reflex action trying to fight its misbehavior.

    A local resource in Houston, TX ( @jcthorne, James Thorne, http://www.thornolis.com ) has just received his Ryker hub adapters for the ROLO system. He offered to get me in for service this coming Sunday morning, but I will be motocamping in Austin, TX at COTA for the Blancpain GT races until Monday morning. So, I scheduled the following Saturday morning for the exorcism of my Ryker's alignment demons. I plan to document the entire process, and I'll ask James if he minds me making a video or an interview on the subject. James, if you're watching the comments, then you'll already know what's on my mind.

    --
    QM

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    Active Member QuasiMotard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cueman View Post
    Mine didn't come with the screw and it was sealed in the factory box. cueman
    Yessir... same here. The set screw would be a real bugger to get in there with the limited clearance anyway. The next issue of the non-locking MAX accessories is the passenger seat... nothing there, just a quick-release button. Hmm...

    --
    QM

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    Active Member QuasiMotard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nchangin View Post
    Wow. Was yours made on Monday after a holiday or Friday before a holiday? i'm sorry your having so many issues. Great documentation for any such claim you may have. Not that I own one yet, I want to, but not if I have to deal with any of these issues. I'm 2 hours from closest dealer/mechanic to start.

    I know those noises would bug me, but after months of watching other video's I have not heard a lot of the sounds you have? The only one I heard before was the reverse engagement clunk. Good luck in your endeavors.
    I've heard that the Rykers are made in Mexico... so maybe mine was built the morning after a Tequila-infused Mexican Ring Toss showdown following a neighbor's quinceañera?

    I've mentioned it before in other threads... this is my 87th bike in my riding career, and I have 14 others currently in the stable. I'm not new to motorcycling, wrenching, or diagnosing problems. This Ryker certainly has its... uh... peculiarities.

    --
    QM

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    Active Member njfishfan's Avatar
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    The screw was in a little plastic bag, inside the tail bag when I got mine. I did have to cut down an Allen wrench which makes it a lot easier to tighten in the tight space.

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    Thanks, I'll take another look tomorrow. cueman

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    Interesting thread, lots of PR on the Ryker, knocked it out of the park, etc.....Like many new products on the market, lots of quirks. I cringe when dealers say, "oh, that's normal".

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    Following this thread. Thanks for the great attention to detail, QuasiMotard.

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    Have been considering a Ryker. This thread is invaluable, especially to see how CanAm and its dealers respond. Thank you, QM, for being persistent and taking the time to chase this stuff down. Watching...

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    Afriend mentioned that they used to go to auto shows when they were going to be in the market for a new car. then thye would wait a couple ofyears and then buy the model they were looking at. then the bugs and in this case the imperculities worked out.
    Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuasiMotard View Post
    Evil SOB is just about right... it's downright nasty sometimes. I'm a seasoned moto-veteran and this thing catches me out sometimes... I can't imagine what a new or inexperienced rider would think or what might happen in a panicked reflex action trying to fight its misbehavior.

    A local resource in Houston, TX ( @jcthorne, James Thorne, http://www.thornolis.com ) has just received his Ryker hub adapters for the ROLO system. He offered to get me in for service this coming Sunday morning, but I will be motocamping in Austin, TX at COTA for the Blancpain GT races until Monday morning. So, I scheduled the following Saturday morning for the exorcism of my Ryker's alignment demons. I plan to document the entire process, and I'll ask James if he minds me making a video or an interview on the subject. James, if you're watching the comments, then you'll already know what's on my mind.

    --
    QM
    I could be miles off here I'm no engineering genius but I'd be interested (if at all possible) on seeing whether the ''fixed rear wheel position'' is accurate. ie is the back wheel perfectly square and centred with the front axle geometry and it's just the toe that is wrong.Given they are laser aligned from the factory but not knowing how its performed exactly would the whole frame being out of square be the next place to look.
    2017 F3S Daytona , Circuit Yellow Metalic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire34 View Post
    Afriend mentioned that they used to go to auto shows when they were going to be in the market for a new car. then thye would wait a couple ofyears and then buy the model they were looking at. then the bugs and in this case the imperculities worked out.
    Dave
    I remember the old days when I believe that was more of an issue. My decision to buy the first year Ryker was based on they already had experience with this basic engine design with their ATV and side by side and water craft vehicles. Also had over 10 years experience building 3 wheeled vehicles. I figured it was a fairly safe bet that BRP would get it right. I have hope that even though they make strange noises, they will be dependable and enjoyable. cueman

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    Thank you for the great follow-up on the longish listing of issues.
    -- Jim
    2022 F3S, special series , Manta Green

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    not all riders want recalls on email or social media I want it in mail so I know I got it. In north east a lot of people I know are buying rykers are over 50. I own 17,18 rt ordered Ryker rally so I can ride on dirt roads more fun than side by side I am 65.i think brp is going to be surprised on the age group buying Ryker it is going to be like the spyder

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    Very Active Member pegasus1300's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by njfishfan View Post
    The screw was in a little plastic bag, inside the tail bag when I got mine. I did have to cut down an Allen wrench which makes it a lot easier to tighten in the tight space.
    Try using a ball end Allen wrench

    Happy TRAils/NSD
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    Active Member njfishfan's Avatar
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    Thx ,will do .... after all these years never used one

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    Active Member QuasiMotard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus1300 View Post
    Try using a ball end Allen wrench
    Nah, the angle is below 30 degrees on this application, too sharp for a ball-end. The mount itself is reused from the snowmobile and watercraft applications and apparently wasn't specific for this case. It really needs a keyed barrel lock/pin to secure it after it's latched onto the bike.

    The passenger seat accessories are a similar oversight, IMHO... just pop the quick-release and walk away with it. The passenger seat and backrest combo is very pricey. I can understand taking tank bags and top cases into an establishment with you to prevent theft (e.g. into a restaurant), but carrying a relatively large $500-600 passenger seat indoors? Maybe you could use it as a booster chair at IHOP.

    --
    QM

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    I started out wondering why someone would steal a model specific motorcycle seat or tail trunk; what would they do with it? Then I remembered our local volunteer fire department recently had someone break in and steal 10 sets of bunker gear.. (helmets, fireproof suits, boots etc). http://www.kltv.com/2019/03/04/thiev...re-department/
    Where is somebody going to sell 10 sets of bunker gear with the VFD name on it? Sometimes thieves just perplex me.
    2019 Ryler Rally , Shock Yellow

  24. #24
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Location
    N.E. Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by cueman View Post
    Mine didn't come with the screw and it was sealed in the factory box. cueman
    I stand corrected! LOL, I looked again in my tail bag and found the tiny screw used to lock the latch of the bag. cueman

  25. #25
    Customer Support LeftCoast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    San Francisco Bay area
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    As my father in law says if these guys would put as much time and thought into something legit as they do stealing they’d be millionaires. Lazy *$#@{‘s
    2015 Pearl White RTL
    Baja Ron Sway Bar
    Russell Day Long Seat
    Strobe Brake Light
    Mirror Mount Turn Signal Indicator

    2015 RTL , Yes Pearl White

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