I picked up my Ryker Rally today. They were checking fluids while I was dealing with paperwork. I asked them to be sure and check the gear box oil and they did need to add a little.
I must admit. I find it hard to understand how in the world a product could get out of the factory without the proper lubricants filled to the correct level. I am glad this is being addressed. But it does not speak well for the assembly process.
But it does not speak well for the assembly process.
Here are two photos posted by Lamont today. He did not give a description but it looks like he found the screw nearly completely backed out of the engine case on a Ryker. For clarification you can go to RykerLovers on Facebook. He was performing an alignment as well and made this discovery......
EDIT UPDATE I found a description finally on facebook by Lamont. This screw is used to lock the steering in the straight away position. It appears to be part of the alignments process. It is not an assembly error.
Here is the clip of Lamonts comment about the two photos:
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I agree Peter. It's not really my thread. It is our thread. Though it started out as 1 specific Ryker issue. Any real or perceived 'Issue' is still on subject, as far as I am concerned. Why not have them all in one place rather than scattered into several threads.
Sounds good to me. However, I don't understand your "perceived 'Issue'" comment where the gearbox oil issue is concerned. This has been confirmed in my case (not dry, but 30% under-filled) and a few others from what I understand. Or am I misinterpreting your reply? I realize that there have been a few other developments since this quote.
The jury is still out on the alignment problem. The dealer is looking at it today and has already admitted that the tech assigned to the PDI on my Ryker, "apparently didn't check the oil level or specifications detailed in TSB 2019-2". If the tech missed/ignored the TSB, what else was omitted or ignored? What other safety items might have been at risk? Wheel nut torque specs... I shudder to think of the consequences of that one.
They were very apologetic about the whole mess and agreed to assign a new tech, redo the entire PDI, verify the alignment, and verify the oil in the final drive. That's huge step in the right direction. Kudo's to them for NOT denying the validity of the facts for a second time. They advised that they should be done with it on Tuesday and give me a call to arrange re-delivery or pick up.
Here are two photos posted by Lamont today. He did not give a description but it looks like he found the screw nearly completely backed out of the engine case on a Ryker. For clarification you can go to RykerLovers on Facebook. He was performing an alignment as well and made this discovery......
@BajaRon : agreed on the assembly process. In one of my replies on the YouTube threads, I put it this way: "... This is a first-year run of a new model, so there are bound to be little issues for the manufacturer to sort out. I don't hold that against them or the product... excellence is a process, not a destination... find a problem and fix it, then improve the process for the next iteration. However, the Operator's Manual issue really needs to be addressed quickly to prevent damage from over-fill. Can-Am/BRP should be on the phone calling every owner and mailing out addendum sheets for their manual."
I think we are finding several problematic issues with this first-gen product in both assembly and QC. Hopefully, BRP will step up and resolve the problems without the customers having to bend over backwards.
@Leland : do we have any details on that alignment issue? I'd like to see if that info helps my dealer sort out my "tail wag", or what the dealer referred to as "crabbing". I advised that it's a little more than crabbing because it doesn't return to center after the walk... it would just keep going to the curb, or the 18-wheeler next to me. It requires VERY active/alert steering inputs/corrections to keep it in check. I made another video this morning of the ride to the dealer (not published yet), where I commented that I was actually looking forward to the stop lights... that's not good.
@Leland : do we have any details on that alignment issue? I'd like to see if that info helps my dealer sort out my "tail wag", or what the dealer referred to as "crabbing". I advised that it's a little more than crabbing because it doesn't return to center after the walk... it would just keep going to the curb, or the 18-wheeler next to me. It requires VERY active/alert steering inputs/corrections to keep it in check. I made another video this morning of the ride to the dealer (not published yet), where I commented that I was actually looking forward to the stop lights... that's not good.
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QM
@QM.
I just made an update to my posting #79 above. I went back to the RykerLovers Facebook and found a description regarding the photos Lamont posted. The screw is used to center the steering during alignment from what I can tell by his description. I'm sorry I don't have any useful information on how to align a Ryker. If your dealer contacts Lamont aka Lamonster he will be able to talk to one of the best in the world. If you need help getting his contact information please let me know.
Here is the RykerLovers Facebook page, if you drill down a few entries you will see Lamont's hand hold a screw, you can open the photos and look at the laser marks of the bike he is working on. Other than that bit of data that is all I can offer currently. https://www.facebook.com/groups/RykerLovers/
UPDATE: I have read two comments of riders complaining of the Rykers being darty, or wandering at highway speeds, a third person said that they had the same problem but their dealer did an alignment and everything was okay now. That last one happened to be a Ryker 600cc model. You can find this on RykerLovers. It does confirm the fact that Rykers much like Spyders want the front end setup correct and at that point they will track fine. That is good news, but the Ryker 600cc owner did not give any details.
Last edited by Leland; 01-26-2019 at 08:35 PM.
Reason: More data:
Sounds good to me. However, I don't understand your "perceived 'Issue'" comment where the gearbox oil issue is concerned. This has been confirmed in my case (not dry, but 30% under-filled) and a few others from what I understand. Or am I misinterpreting your reply? I realize that there have been a few other developments since this quote.
...... snip ......
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QM
I think you're misinterpreting.
I'm pretty sure that was just a comment to highlight the all inclusive nature of what should &/or would be allowed in the thread - BJR agreed with me that we didn't want people to think that they couldn't post up here because their particular issue with gearbox oil concerns hadn't yet been the subject of an alert or TSB. If they thought they had an issue that related, they should post it up.
It does sound like your dealer is handling this pretty well tho - at least now, anyway!
Last edited by Peter Aawen; 01-26-2019 at 08:35 PM.
There is another comment in one of my YouTube videos that is a totally new issue: dying in traffic (at idle, I presume) because of a spark plug issue? I tried to upload/attach a PNG picture of the comments, but I keep getting an "invalid file" error from the forum. The user mentioned that she is here in the Houston area and took it back to the dealer and got the spark plug diagnosis.
I'm pretty sure that was just a comment to highlight the all inclusive nature of what should &/or would be allowed in the thread - BJR agreed with me that we didn't want people to think that they couldn't post up here because their particular issue with gearbox oil concerns hadn't yet been the subject of an alert or TSB. If they thought they had an issue that related, they should post it up.
It does sound like your dealer is handling this pretty well tho - at least now, anyway!
Agreed. As I stated before, I like this dealer and they are usually good to me. This bad delivery was unexpected for sure. I'm not sure if it's a case of simple human error, or if somebody was just flat lazy. The repeated insistence that they did the TSB/recall when I knew it was false is what irked me. I followed the fill/check procedure and added 140-150 mL to the box on video. When they figured out that I had all of the info and that I REALLY did the service myself, they acquiesced and admitted that it was an error on their part.
So, the real question in my mind is this: If I had taken it back to them as-is and let them "re-check" their work, would they have really redone the PDI, or just glossed over it again with the standard response that everyone else seems to be getting from their dealers, "it was just a little bit low, so they sent me on my way". How many other Rykers are having this (and other) QC issues? If the dealers aren't reporting this stuff and/or not really doing the work, then the manufacturer's hands are tied... can't improve the product without the prerequisite feedback and error/failure rates in the product.
I'm not curious because I'm looking for ammunition to fire back at BRP. I'm interested because I want any/all issues with my Ryker addressed while they are fresh, fixable and covered under warranty. It's mine, paid cash out the door, done. Now I want to ride it and not worry about the BS.
I just made an update to my posting #79 above. I went back to the RykerLovers Facebook and found a description regarding the photos Lamont posted. The screw is used to center the steering during alignment from what I can tell by his description. I'm sorry I don't have any useful information on how to align a Ryker. If your dealer contacts Lamont aka Lamonster he will be able to talk to one of the best in the world. If you need help getting his contact information please let me know.
Here is the RykerLovers Facebook page, if you drill down a few entries you will see Lamont's hand hold a screw, you can open the photos and look at the laser marks of the bike he is working on. Other than that bit of data that is all I can offer currently. https://www.facebook.com/groups/RykerLovers/
UPDATE: I have read two comments of riders complaining of the Rykers being darty, or wandering at highway speeds, a third person said that they had the same problem but their dealer did an alignment and everything was okay now. That last one happened to be a Ryker 600cc model. You can find this on RykerLovers. It does confirm the fact that Rykers much like Spyders want the front end setup correct and at that point they will track fine. That is good news, but the Ryker 600cc owner did not give any details.
I have received numerous comments on my YouTube vids from other Ryker owners regarding alignment issues. In those cases, the problem was apparently diagnosed by the dealers as definitely being out of alignment and then resolved. So, it's apparently becoming a "known issue" to the community at large, thanks to these discussion threads and the YouTube videos. That's all we can hope for, is to share knowledge and improve the process for all.
Another user just posted a juicy morsel regarding the laser alignment procedures on the Spyder's. If it works on Spyders, then it stands to reason that the same process will work on Rykers (with the appropriate hub adapters and tech specs, of course). Here is Shawn Smoak's video for anybody that hasn't found it already: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjvYrjhsdWg&t=483s
The context of my post on YouTube is here for reference:
Brett Neindorf 22 hours ago
Sounds like an alignment problem,Shawn Smoak did a vid on a Spyder laser alignment,sounds similar problems to yours.
QuasiMotard 13 hours ago
Good news, thx for that. I will search for Smoak's video on the topic. His videos are one of the primary reasons that I pulled the trigger on this purchase! It looks like such a hoot to ride.. minimalist and rowdy, a real hooligan toy if you want to misbehave. Unfortunately in my case, it's doing all of the misbehaving without my consent, and I can't ride it until this nonsense is resolved. If I WANT the tail to wag, then it should be in a power slide or let-the-smoke-out tire roast because my right wrist has found the WOT stop in "Rally Mode"! ;-)
QuasiMotard 35 minutes ago
@Brett Neindorf BEAUTIFUL! That's an absolutely fantastic catch, sir! I must also pay homage to Shawn Smoak... credit given where credit is due. I plan to circulate that clip throughout the forums and scream it from the hilltops. So many people (including the dealer) thought it was in my head! They said it probably has the usual Spyder "crabbing" behavior and not to worry about it. ;-) I hope that my dealer has the prerequisite equipment to do this process (hub adapters, alignment boards, etc). They are a Spyder shop, but the Ryker is new and has a different hub type... we'll see. I will take this new information to them first thing Tuesday morning to see what they say. Hell, at this point, if I thought it would help... I'd buy a 65" QLED HDTV and a Roku Ultra with this video stuck on an infinite play loop and deliver it to their service bay... strap the PDI service tech's into chairs with duct tape, wedge their eyelids open, and make them watch for a while... Clockwork Orange style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E51-2B8gHtk
It's amazing what a little community teamwork can do! Isn't modern technology and communication grand? It makes it so unnecessary to wallow in a vacuum of ignorance or denial. Seek and ye shall find, research and ye shall learn.
Regarding the forced dealer re-education session that I mentioned in my YouTube comments above: there are a few other people that might benefit from that therapy. I'll have to work up a list of attendees and logistics to see if I can swing it. Here is my rough draft of the curriculum: presenting the laser alignment video, PDI check procedures, and TSB/recall notices to the students. Maybe we can arrange electroshock therapy for the repeat offenders?
I think that I may have shocked the natives around here. If so, I extend my apologies. I couldn't resist the humor... it's my way of rationalizing my misfortune and "fixing" this problem.
More developments on the Ryker alignment issues... I have received several more reports from Ryker owners about their bikes being "darty" and other alignment ails. Two of these reviewers have thanked me for bringing these issues to light and posting the video showing the tail wag at speed. They were also told, or made to believe, that this behavior is "normal" for the Sypders and Rykers. Now they realize that they might not be crazy, and they might not have wasted their money on a nearly unridable machine. One particular viewer's comments are below:
PatriotNC1 • 15 hours ago
Sir, my Rally is having the same issues. Pulls to one side, and darts left and right. Can't get it much past 40 mph, and it becomes a real battle. I noticed on your other video that you took it back to your dealer. Please let me know if they came up with a solution to the problem. Thanks. - CJ
PatriotNC1 • 16 hours ago
Sir, I have the exact same problem your having. Darting left and right, won't track straight. It's a handful. Could you let me know what you Can-Am dealer comes up with on this? I'd really like to know how they fix it. Thanks for putting this video up, now I know I'm not imagining things. - C.J.
I think that we can reasonably conclude that there is a significant enough number of Rykers out in the wild that have this symptom... enough to confirm the "issue" status. I'm a YouTube "nobody"... so if people are finding my videos, then it means that those people are really desperate and searching for answers. How many other Ryker owners haven't resorted to searching YouTube and are relying on their dealers to either fix the problem(s) or tell them "everything is OK, it's normal, don't worry about it." They owners aren't crazy... they have the seat time to figure it out.
I hope that BRP can work up a recall on the issue, so it doesn't give the Ryker (at least MY Ryker) a busted lip to go along with the black eye (the gearbox and skipped PDI debacle). I'm along for the ride, for better or worse. The problem is that of the cost associated with the proper alignment equipment... "$2500" as my dealer stated. They don't plan to purchase it. So, where does that leave ANY customer that receives a problematic Ryker from them? Are these tools readily-available for dealers to purchase, and if so, how long will it take to receive them? Could dealers "rent" or borrow the tools from BRP in order to remediate the faulty Rykers that they received? BRP logistics issue indeed.
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QM
Last edited by QuasiMotard; 01-31-2019 at 02:51 AM.
Reason: Added clarification on the double posted single user comment quote
Here is another minor, but annoying issue related with the Ryker shipping and/or dealer uncrating logistics. My unit came with significant scratches on both upper A-arms. They stated that it was crate and shipping damage. That is apparently NOT the whole truth. A friendly YouTube viewer just threw this nice piece of information my way, courtesy of the Smoak's VLOGs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-03U8hTDUfY&t=680s
My response back to Shawn is below:
QuasiMotard 1 minute ago
Shawn: Thank you so much for detailing the Ryker uncrating and initial assembly caveats, beginning at 11:20 of your video. My dealer must have done EXACTLY what you described. They mistakenly scratched up the A-arms on both sides of my bike... pretty deep in some spots, all the way through the powdercoat. Perhaps BRP should note that potential issue by wrapping those arms with more padding and/or bright CAUTION tape? It is done all the time with aftermarket parts and computer equipment while in transit containers. Even the part itself will have bright yellow stickers with a warning label. Just my thoughts on how to prevent the error. Keep up the great vids! They are a true blessing to the community!
OK, Can-Am/BRP just sent me an email earlier today regarding customer service and satisfaction with the dealer. You asked for it, you got it, Toyota... The gloves are off, and the gauntlet has been thrown down... The final page of the survey asked for a detailed description, to which I replied...
I have always had good interactions with this dealer, and I would like to salvage the relationship if possible. However, my last experience purchasing the 2019 Ryker Rally on 01/18/2019 has been a complete disaster. There were several dealer errors in assembly resulting in damages, improper preparation, skipped PDI checks, performance of safety recall/bulletin checks, and acknowledgement of these errors. I have detailed documentation, pictures, and video evidence of the problems posted on YouTube and various community forums.
The dealer seems unable or disinterested in fixing these issues, and has advised that they are relaying my complaints to BRP. This dealer does not have, nor plans to purchase, the laser alignment kit in order to fix an unsafe alignment condition. I have not received any communication from BRP, so I am effectively a victim of "caveat emptor" thus far. That is not a good impression upon BRP, and definitely not acceptable for a new road-legal vehicle sold in the USA. This doesn't bode well for the reputation of either Can-Am/BRP or for the dealer.
I can be reached by phone or email with the details recorded on my VIN and/or the BRP case #01737793 for remediation efforts.
Thank you for your attention in this matter.
We'll see how that little mic drop plays out. I'm tired of being on the wrong end of this deal. It will be to be TWO WEEKS this Friday, and I STILL have an undriveable vehicle that's sitting at the dealer, waiting for someone to give a SH*T. The dealer is definitely culpable here... BRP is radio silent for over 11 days. This is not a good first impression for someone new to the BRP family.
That's the standard procedure from BRP but there is the rare exception. The very same wheel alignment issue has been there from day 1 with Spyder. It ain't a new phenomenon.
The best substitute for brains & knowledge is....................silence.
I absolutely agree with the post above. This is not a new issue. It has been around since the advent of Can Am 3 wheelers. The fix is easy. Laser alignment. Even though my alignment is pretty decent right now from delivery. I will still have it laser aligned because I wanted perfect. I did this with my 1st Spyder ST Limited and was thrilled every mile thereafter.
I couldn't agree more. This isn't my first rodeo in the motorsports world. I have an above-average mechanical ability due to my years and experience playing with my toys.
SO, why wouldn't the dealer(s) admit to the obvious truth that NOBODY would accept that tail-wagging nonsense from a car or motorcycle? It's not road-worthy, plain and simple. How is that "normal"? Why doesn't BRP include the prerequisite tool sets (laser alignment set) with each new model (not every bike, but every dealer's prep pack for that model)? And better yet, why isn't that deemed to be a MANDATORY safety item that is provided by BRP or a BRP-mandated dealer purchase?
The facts are very clear in my case: the vehicle is NOT safe to operate on public roadways, so that is a violation of federal and state safety standards. This situation is a combination of manufacturer and dealer malfeasance and/or negligence. That spells disaster for the consumer/owner/operator, and one that will affect the consumer first, then walk its way up the chain to the source (BRP) until someone is forced to resolve it. If my case doesn't start the ball rolling, someone else's will. If left unchecked, BRP might not be able to sell Rykers in the USA due to these safety issues.
I felt the same way about my first Spyder alignment issue. But I got over it and spent $130 for lazer alignment. Life's too sort tomiss out on loosing miles on a perfectly aligned Spyder / Ryker.
I felt the same way about my first Spyder alignment issue. But I got over it and spent $130 for lazer alignment. Life's too sort tomiss out on loosing miles on a perfectly aligned Spyder / Ryker.
Agreed. I don't mind paying the money or taking it elsewhere, and that's probably going to be the outcome here. I'm just waiting for the dealer to untie my new pony from the hitching post, so I can ride off into the sunset. I need to search for another dealer that DOES have the alignment tools... So, I'm off to scour the interwebs and make lots of phone calls to service departments across Texas today. If a GOOD dealer is more than 30-45 miles away, then I'll have to trailer this tail-happy puppy for safety's sake. Again, more money out of my pocket, which is ridiculous.
That still doesn't resolve the dealer misconduct or the damaged A-arm issues. Live and learn, I guess.
But the critical part of that isn't often mentioned in the discussion.
The key is to get a GOOD alignment, which means going a bit beyond the BRP recommended settings......AND getting both sides the same.
My dealer has the laser alignment equipment but is waffling on doing anything outside of the BRP recommended "specs".
I am a bit lucky in that I'm not far from the "factory" where the laser equipment is made and can go there if necessary.
But that isn't the case for a lot of folks and it should not be necessary for anybody.
BRP SUCKS when it comes to customer service.
Good companies LISTEN to their customers and pay attention when a LOT of them are saying the same thing.
BRP is deaf and dumb.
I'm gonna keep my Spyder because I have too much tied up in it to go back now...................
BUT I really, REALLY wish I had test ridden a Goldwing trike before I got the Spyder.
But the critical part of that isn't often mentioned in the discussion.
The key is to get a GOOD alignment, which means going a bit beyond the BRP recommended settings......AND getting both sides the same.
My dealer has the laser alignment equipment but is waffling on doing anything outside of the BRP recommended "specs".
I'd settle for straight and true... not perfect, but straight. BRP specs would be a good starting point at the very simplest. I hope not to offend anyone by asking/insisting, but watch my YouTube video about my ride back to the dealer. The effect is patently obvious... it's not safe to ride in city traffic, and downright dangerous at freeway speeds.
The VLOG is a bit long, but the first effect is really noticeable when I get on the freeway at the 13:13 marker. Also keep in mind that my GoPro Hero7 Black has image stabilization that masks most of the REAL twitchy behavior... it is smoothed out of the final product. In reality, the bike is always twitchy and nervous... it is a constant battle to keep it tracking straight at any speed. The first freeway jaunt lasts a couple of minutes and then I jump off the freeway to stop playing motorized Russian Roulette: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c..._61bwgM&t=793s
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QM
Last edited by QuasiMotard; 01-31-2019 at 10:28 AM.
Reason: Reformatted, added URL to video for non-SL subscribers to see link
Just "doing an alignment" to the BRP supplied spec's isn't good enough.
BTW... I just digested the info in your second link (lindsayroland.com). That's great stuff, thanks for the link. I am reaching out to several of the "Texas dealers" and independents on the SpyderComfort (True Laser Track) site. I haven't found any hits so far, as the information seems to be outdated on many of the dealers, but I did find a possible hit from the "independent" section that is here in Houston, TX. I'll post back with any updates, in case anyone in this area needs a similar service.
As for the original/primary dealer, they don't want to mess with it any further. I called the service mgr this evening, and he advised that it has been sitting there for days waiting to be picked up... apparently untouched despite my invitation to let all of the service personnel ride/flog it to make their opinions known... (no calls, no news, no "we're working on it updates"). I'm planning to pick it up from them tomorrow (Friday) or Saturday if the weather permits.
I found another local dealer that is willing to tear into it and give me a second opinion on what's "normal". I'll be paying standard shop rate for the assessment initially ($129/hr, prob 2 hrs minimum) to get their diagnosis. Their backlog is currently about 2 weeks, but that service mgr said that he would do his best to line-cut the queue if possible. If they find anything seriously out of spec that might indicate an impact or other damaged part, then we'll escalate from there (e.g. warranty, primary dealer complaint, etc). In any case, this secondary dealer will align it to the best of their ability (and to my satisfaction) and I'll take it as-is. What's a few hundred more bucks in the long run?
After that point, whether aligned properly or not, I plan to have the laser alignment performed somewhere... even if I have to trailer it to another state. Whether it's stable enough to ride there or not will determine if that trip will be as a road warrior or a trailer queen. I'm determined to resolve this issue now for the greater good of the community. I'm out the cash one way or another, so hopefully someone else can benefit from my trials and tribulations. I'll report back with the details, good or bad... maybe I'm crazy, maybe not.
More Missing Gearbox oil via Lamont:
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by BajaRon
That. [... mic dropping onto soapbox...]
