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  1. #51
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    It's not a straightforward easy to apply number. Basically if the front wheels are exactly parallel to each other and to the frame so that toe-in or toe-out equals zero, then the variation allowed is +/- 5 mm, ~0.2". That is based on the length of the bar that is clamped to the frame and which is about 6' long, 3' in front of the wheel center and 3' behind the wheel center. That is total between wheels. Toe-in/toe-out can be up to .2" over 6'.
    I realize this is an early Service Bulletin, and may have had updates.

    As you read through the charts, it becomes obvious that Can Am, even with the BRP method of aligning by using the bars and chassis reference is accounting for rider and payload for most Spyders. This is indicated by the charts reference to various weights vs alignment setting. In regards to ride height, whether or not BRP has factored in that the ride height bars specified, may not produce a true same ride height for the light rider vs the heavy rider. Regardless, this is something they published to supplement the manual.

    In regards to what you referenced for specs from the manual as 5mm or approximately 0.2", whether or not that provides the specs they are looking for, I do not know. According to the chart, it seems unlikely since there are different settings for different weights.
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  2. #52
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder View Post
    stmike asked what the manual spec for toe-in is. The above is what the manual spec is. There is no toe-in spec for laser alignment. The toe-in values that are used for laser alignment have been determined by trial and error. And yes, the factory specs are based on using strut bars. I suspect the real world toe-in variation between using the bars and not is probably not much.

    If we are going to be sticklers for the conditions spelled out for the factory method, shouldn't there be equivalent controls on ride height while doing laser alignments? From what I read, and my own experience, the real world impact of variable heights while doing laser alignments is inconsequential.
    Not at all being a stickler. The two methods are apples to oranges, but I suppose, ultimately, you will be eating.

    FWIW, included with the FoxShox I purchased were details from BRP regarding what they wanted the ride height to be.

    In regards to the laser specs, no doubt, in some ways it was trial and error, however, chassis setup tends to be pretty well established in regards to front wheel alignment, what settings work well in general on many vehicles, vs those settings that do not.

    Since I do not have at this time, nor do I use a laser setup, my own settings were found. Ironically, those settings are very close to accepted typical toe in amounts and provides proper turn in, stability and freedom in rolling while having virtually no tire wear.

    FWIW, I had aligned our Spyder in early 2014 prior to installing the FoxShox. The tire wear on the oem Kendas was very little, and the stability was proven. After I installed the FoxShox, I was lazy and held off on realigning the Spyder. The FoxShox increased the front ride height slightly, not exactly certain but believe it was 3/4". The result of the increased ride height to the chassis, same riders, at the same weight, was noticeable wear to the front tires in a couple hundred miles. However, raising the Spyder with the FoxShox, increased toe in, so the straight line and cornering handling was very stable. Noticing the tire wear, I needed a new baseline for the FoxShox added spring stiffness. As I did before, I asked a friend to help, his task was simply to sit on the Spyder as he had done on the previous alignment. With that, I made the adjustment to what I considered proper toe in. Doing so again freed up the chassis allowing it to simply keep on rolling with little effort, tire wear was no longer a concern, and handling was improved with better turn in and similar straight line stability.

    I have checked and adjusted other Spyders also. From factory new, a 2018 had complaints from the owner. After resetting to the specs I prefer, the Spyder settled down and became stable both going straight and cornering.

    One Spyder I was asked to check had recently gotten new tires on the front. The owner was concerned about the rapid wear. With him seated on the Spyder, and his machine has stock front shocks, the toe in amount was far beyond the numbers I utilize. This Spyder had been previously aligned by the laser method and was out of alignment a lot. After resetting the toe in, the tire wear diminished, and he immediately noticed how easily it rolled.

    If you have read this far, then you will see, at least when I help people setting up their toe in, the stickler for control of ride height is not a rigid bar or dimension, but rather the Spyder is aligned with the rider seated on the machine. Essentially, that is where the ride height settles to.

  3. #53
    Very Active Member stmike 1800's Avatar
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    Usually toe is measured at the spindle height ,but doing it the way i did by scribing a line on the tire and measuring from there it is impossible as the body is in the way. When i look at toe plates they also do not measure at the spindle height,and wpould get mear the same measurement as what i did . I have worked on the front end rack in years gone by ( lots of years ) ,but this BRP for a simple front end sure try to make life hard . I guess from what i read here it seems like trial and error .Eventhe lazer system must of made up there own specs .

    By the way i have a n easier way to clean or work on the spyder ,as it will fit on my hoist.
    2018 RTL , dark blue

  4. #54
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stmike 1800 View Post
    Usually toe is measured at the spindle height ,but doing it the way i did by scribing a line on the tire and measuring from there it is impossible as the body is in the way. When i look at toe plates they also do not measure at the spindle height,and wpould get mear the same measurement as what i did . I have worked on the front end rack in years gone by ( lots of years ) ,but this BRP for a simple front end sure try to make life hard . I guess from what i read here it seems like trial and error .Eventhe lazer system must of made up there own specs .

    By the way i have a n easier way to clean or work on the spyder ,as it will fit on my hoist.
    Toe sticks will measure accurately and correctly even below the axle center. The reason why, the distance from the axle forward and aft is great enough to see an accurate measurement.

    If you were able to measure at axle height, that is deemed ok. The lower you get towards the ground, the less front to rear the tire is from the axle center. The laser setup sends the information out, at a great distance to hit targets. This allows the most minute change to be seen easily. If you want an accurate and inexpensive method, purchase or find two lengths of very straight box tubing. Cut them to the same length, sat 30" or so. Mark the center of each. Position each center mark under the axle center and secure to the spokes with bungie cords. Find to identical tape measures ideally, and measure the front dimension vs the rear dimension. Then set you toe based on your homemade toe sticks. You will also need a long 3/8 extension and 18mm crowfoot to free and tighten the inboard rod ends.

    Take some notes of your start dimension, try a dimension based on the toe sticks you built. Then go ride. How does if turn in, how does it hold a line thru the corners, is it stable when straight, etc? Try about 1/8" toe in at the tires front most and rear most tangent edge. Might be close or a tad too little depending on other factors.

    Have fun.

    FWIW, my setup, no lasers, just old school tape measures and a wrench. Obviously if the sensor needs to be centered, you will need the dealer to set it with BUDS. Overall, this is pretty accurate and considering the crude steering geometry works fine for the task.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by lindsayw148 View Post
    Well... no, not really.

    – I use 10mm at the targets for an 'average' RT, or 8mm for an average RS, ST, or F3. ...so 2mm across-the-wheel for an RT is FOUR TIMES what BRP recommends! Sad but true.
    The last sentence is all I really was looking for.......so I guess it really IS possible.
    Thank you.

    Are those numbers with a rider in the seat or not ?
    Given that most shops probably won't like to have the owner back in the shop to sit on it, numbers without a rider would be more helpful.

    Mine is a brand new RT and will never carry more than one 200 LB rider, probably.
    Last edited by Easy Rider; 08-08-2018 at 10:45 AM.

  6. #56
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Rider View Post
    The last sentence is all I really was looking for.......so I guess it really IS possible.
    Thank you.

    Are those numbers with a rider in the seat or not ?
    Given that most shops probably won't like to have the owner back in the shop to sit on it, numbers without a rider would be more helpful.

    Mine is a brand new RT and will never carry more than one 200 LB rider, probably.
    The best way is with "the" rider seated on the bike and a typical payload in the frunk. Granted, you could come up with a correction chart of rider weight vs target setting. This works provided the bike is identical in regards to suspension. Saying that, any change to the springs, shock assemblies, preload changes or even spring rubbers tosses the correction chart out the window per say as far as being super accurate as the lasers are able to offer.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    The best way is with "the" rider seated on the bike and a typical payload in the frunk.
    The "best way", in this case, is whatever way the numbers supplied were developed.

    Come to think of it, the rear suspension setting might play a role too.

  8. #58
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Rider View Post
    The "best way", in this case, is whatever way the numbers supplied were developed.

    Come to think of it, the rear suspension setting might play a role too.
    Rear does not have any real concern in this other than ensuring belt tracking is correct and the Spyder was rigged correctly when built.

    There must be consistency and repeatability in the setup. Any variable beyond rider weight, loses that consistency and repeatability to a certain degree. However, if the correct wheel settings are knowns, which some of us believe they are, a rider seated on the machine, in the normal positon, with gear on, eliminates any variable of the vehicle and allows the setup to be dialed in to the rider.

    When I set up race bikes, we use certain known settings to strive for. Those settings are adjusted too based on the rider, with gear, positioned on the bike. Granted, we could have a second person the same weight accomplish the rider portion, but ultimately, variables are avoided or eliminated to obtain the best chassis setup.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by PMK View Post
    Rear does not have any real concern in this other than ensuring belt tracking is correct and the Spyder was rigged correctly when built.
    Two things about that:

    IF....the rear wheel is not tracking straight, it will have an adverse impact on the handling and a simple toe-in adjustment won't fix that.
    Isn't ensuring the rear is tracking straight the FIRST step in any alignment ??

    AND....I was asking about the adjustable rear air bag, which moves the back up and down and would change the front end geometry in a manner similar to having a rider present or not present.......wouldn't it ??

  10. #60
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    Default Laser alignment completed

    I check both our Spyders 2013 RTS and 2018 RTL. The 2018 had only small amount to change. One wheel was toe out and the other toe in. I set the toe in equal on both sides. What a difference, it even rolled better.

    The 2013 was toe in properly on one side and toe out nearly 3/8" on the other. Changed th settings and test drove for a few miles. Better but set it back up on jigs to dial in a little more.

    Lindsey`s directions work and seem to be repeatable.

    Took everything down to the dealer and showed how it works. He said it was too simple but liked it.
    2018 Spyder RT Limited SE6
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  11. #61
    Very Active Member PMK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvanbeek View Post
    I check both our Spyders 2013 RTS and 2018 RTL. The 2018 had only small amount to change. One wheel was toe out and the other toe in. I set the toe in equal on both sides. What a difference, it even rolled better.

    The 2013 was toe in properly on one side and toe out nearly 3/8" on the other. Changed th settings and test drove for a few miles. Better but set it back up on jigs to dial in a little more.

    Lindsey`s directions work and seem to be repeatable.

    Took everything down to the dealer and showed how it works. He said it was too simple but liked it.
    If you are the type rider to notice details in setups, yes, when toe is correct, not only is handling improved, but they roll much more freely.

  12. #62
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    Default True Laser Trac

    Quote Originally Posted by rvanbeek View Post
    I've been studying a procedure from Lindsay Whipp for making the jig that is attached to the front wheels of the Spyder and attaching Laser levels to the Jig. I had to adjust measurements to fit my RT but made a jig from 1/2 inch cabinet grade plywood. Rare earth magnets epoxied to bolts and set at 75mm lengths with calipers and also loc tite used for security. OK... that's the set up. The targets for the lasers were set 75 inches to the rear from the center of the front hub and 32 1/16 from center of the rear wheel. Handle bars have been secured with straps to center them and centered.

    The lasers tell me that the Rt wheel is toe in by 1/2 in at 75 ihches and the left is toe out by 1/2 inch at 75 inches.

    The Bike handles with kind of a twitchy, crabbing effect. If my math is correct I am less than an 1/8 in toe in on one side and less that an 1/8 in toe out on the other. That's without any additional weight the RT.

    This is a 2018 RTL and has 1100 miles. So do I go back to the dealership give them the information. I could set it up and show them, doesn't take that long. Or do I just make the changes my self? It's under warrantee. I've got a good relationship with dealer but don't know how he will respond.
    Mike & Mike Jr. of True Laser Trac most helpful learned alot from them they know Spyder Alignment Phone 386-427-8522 have dealers all over using there system. Did mine spot on put the fun back in riding my Spyder.. Ride Safe

  13. #63
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    Has anyone been told that a full alignment, front end, and back tire, will cost $840 plus tax? I have to have two front tires replaced because the right started showing a lot of wear on the inside and better to replace both tires than just the one. I hope this won't be forever but so far it's like owning a Mercedes...everything must go through the dealer and they want to overcharge you more than the current fuel crisis.

  14. #64
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    Assuming the handlebars are deadnuts center…..the Spyder is crabbing down the road…….toe in needs to be 1” to 11/4 in toe in @75 inches front to rear of front wheel center. The rear wheel rim is 8” width…….make your rear target offset from there.
    Use Buds to zero out the Steering Angle Sensor and Torque sensors as describe in shop manual.
    Check rear wheel belt alignment prior to steering alignment procedure.
    2019 F3L , Covid Blue

  15. #65
    Very Active Member IdahoMtnSpyder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyW View Post
    Has anyone been told that a full alignment, front end, and back tire, will cost $840 plus tax?
    Outrageous!

    2014 Copper RTS

    Tri-Axis bars, CB, BajaRon sway bar & shock adjusters, SpyderPop's Bumpskid, NBV peg brackets, LED headlights and modulator, Wolo trumpet air horns, trailer hitch, custom trailer harness, high mount turn signals, Custom Dynamics brake light, LED turn signal lights on mirrors, LED strip light for a dash light, garage door opener, LED lights in frunk, trunk, and saddlebags, RAM mounts and cradles for tablet (for GPS) and phone (for music), and Smooth Spyder belt tensioner.
    2014 RTS , Copper! (officially Cognac)

  16. #66
    Active Member LongIsland's Avatar
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    No, look at these dealers that do the Rolo alignment (http://www.spydercomfort.com)

    SOUTH CAROLINA DEALERS


    Velocity Powersports
    Landson,SC. 843-871-5371 (ask for Byron)



    Performance Powersports
    Seneca, SC. 864-888-8123 (ask for Kevin)



    Redline Powersports
    Myrtle Beach SC 843-236-0758 (ask for Todd)
    They can now laser align your Ryker

    Rock Hill Powersports
    Rock Hill SC 803-324-8800 (ask for Vinny)


    SOUTH CAROLINA DEALERS


    Velocity Powersports
    Landson,SC. 843-871-5371 (ask for Byron)



    Performance Powersports
    Seneca, SC. 864-888-8123 (ask for Kevin)



    Redline Powersports
    Myrtle Beach SC 843-236-0758 (ask for Todd)
    They can now laser align your Ryker

    Rock Hill Powersports
    Rock Hill SC 803-324-8800 (ask for Vinny)

  17. #67
    Very Active Member K80Shooter's Avatar
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    I would go here myself.

    SPYDER COMFORT
    Daytona Beach,Fl and Lndrum, SC .386-427-8522 (ask for Mike )
    2020 RT Limited Chrome , Petrol Blue

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