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  1. #26
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    Default IMPEDENCE

    [QUOTE=Easy Rider;1380381]I've been an Electronics Engineering Tech for over 50 years.
    I KNOW what an ohm is....and I know what impedance is.

    Somebody here needs to stop pretending to be an expert in things that they are NOT........but it isn't me.[QUOTE] An " Ohm " is a measurement of Impedence ..............." Impedence " is another term for " RESISTANCE " .... and I don't have to tell you what resistance is .... You've been resisting FACTS - TRUTH in 95% of all your posts ..... ..... Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    An " Ohm " is a measurement of Impedence ..............." Impedence " is another term for " RESISTANCE " ....
    Wrong again.
    Just stop, please.

  3. #28
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Default OHM -

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Rider View Post
    Wrong again.
    Just stop, please.
    Well if I'm " WRONG " ....then Dear Mr. Electronics Engineering Tech for over 50 years "... please enlighten us here on Spyderlovers by telling us ..... WHAT AN OHM IS .....and WHAT IT DOES ....... Thanks in advance .... Mike
    Last edited by BLUEKNIGHT911; 07-28-2018 at 10:10 AM.

  4. #29
    Very Active Member Rattlebars's Avatar
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    An OHM and IMPEDANCE are not the same, even though they are rated by the same term. I'm not an engineer by any means, but a simple Google search turned up this >CLICK ME<. I've been at this stereo and speaker impedance for over 50 years. I even built a set of klipsch hornes in my 20's (that will date me!)

    If you are having an argument on the net for all to see, GOOGLE it before you make a fool of yourself. One can burn out an amplifier output transistors if one drops the impedance too low for the unit to handle it.

    My GoldWing pages on stereo improvement >CLICK ME<.
    Last edited by Rattlebars; 07-28-2018 at 07:59 PM.
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  5. #30
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Default OHM's etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Rattlebars View Post
    An OHM and IMPEDANCE are not the same, even though they are rated by the same term. I'm not an engineer by any means, but a simple Google search turned up this >CLICK ME<. I've been at this stereo and speaker impedance for over 50 years. I even built a set of klipsch hornes in my 20's (that will date me!)

    If you are having an argument on the net for all to see, GOOGLE it before you make a fool of yourself. One can burn out an amplifier output transistors if one drops the impedance too low for the unit to handle it.

    My GoldWing pages on stereo improvement >CLICK ME<.
    After reading your post #23, you state that 2 ohm's will draw TWICE the power of 4 ohm's .....yet the article you sent me to read, says EXACTLY the opposite ..... I'm confused as to why you referenced that article since IT supports what I have said..... I'm sorry but I don't have time to read 20,000 words about GOLDWINGS ..... Answer me this ... JBL is one of the oldest and largest company's ( and well respected ) producing audio speakers, they have specialized in 2 Ohm models .... How has this company survived in this very competitive market , by producing BAD Speakers. I use the term BAD because I get the impression you feel there is something wrong with using ... TWO OHM speakers ....Theories about what can happen when using 2 Ohm speakers don't match the FACT ( not theory ) that I have had my 2 Ohm set-up for over 4 years and 40,000 miles........As Billy Bovine said ...the 18 F-3 T radio is NOT the same as the 17 and earlier radio's ...Sooooooooooo it may not be the speakers at all that have caused you problems.........Mike , ....PPS, show me where I said Ohm's and Impedance are the same !!!! ... don't bother searching you will never find it
    Last edited by BLUEKNIGHT911; 07-28-2018 at 08:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rattlebars View Post
    If you are having an argument on the net for all to see, GOOGLE it before you make a fool of yourself.
    OOPS. Too late. WAY too late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    After reading your post #23, you state that 2 ohm's will draw TWICE the power of 4 ohm's ....
    In order to talk (intelligently) about a subject, you first must understand the basics.
    No electronic device "draws" power, it allows the power to flow.

    Think about a hose and water flow. Opening the end of the hose does not "draw" the water out, it allows the water to flow. How much depends on the size of the hose and the pressure of the water. The flow of electricity works much the same way.

  8. #33
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Default OHM's & " DRAW "

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Rider View Post
    In order to talk (intelligently) about a subject, you first must understand the basics.
    No electronic device "draws" power, it allows the power to flow.

    Think about a hose and water flow. Opening the end of the hose does not "draw" the water out, it allows the water to flow. How much depends on the size of the hose and the pressure of the water. The flow of electricity works much the same way.
    #1. - I don't know why you are quoting me about using the tem " DRAW " .... " Rattlebars " is the one who said it ........ # 2.- I asked you questions back in post #28 .... " What an Ohm is " and what it does " ........ if you don't know please say so ...... It's the honorable thing to do................ Mike

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    # 2.- I asked you questions back in post #28 ....
    Answering your "questions" is pointless because you don't listen.....or don't understand.....or both.

  10. #35
    Very Active Member Rattlebars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by website

    Amplifier Output Power


    Let’s say we have an amplifier. The specifications might say the output power is 100 watts RMS at 8 ohms.
    Notice the power output (100 watts) is at a specified load (8 ohms). This is telling us that with an 8 ohm speaker, the maximum output power will be 100 watts.
    An Ideal Amplifier

    If our sample amplifier were an ideal amplifier, then we can also calculate¹ that:

    • With a 4 ohm speaker, the maximum output power will be 200 watts.
    • With a 16 ohm speaker, the maximum output power will be 50 watts.

    The above shows that for an ideal amp, halving the impedance doubles the power output. Doubling the impedance halves the power output.



    Impedance is the same as ohms in a way. If the restriction at the end of a circuit has LESS OHMS, the current will flow more than if the restriction is MORE OHMS. A 2 ohm speaker will LET (draw) more power from the amp flow than a FOUR OHM speaker would LET (draw) through. Sometimes it lets too much current through and the amplifier will burn out. Quoted above is the actual page I linked.


    I'm convinced we merely have a discussion about definition. IMPEDANCE is roughly the same as RESISTANCE. If there is less resistance more juice will flow. More resistance, less will flow. Like opening the end of a hose.


    Speaker magnets are permanent around the big hickey on the outside. How a speaker works is that it takes the pulses from the amplifier and changes the properties of the VOICE COIL (electromagnet) which is hidden inside the center of the speaker. That change in properties causes the voice coil to move up and down (vibrate) inside the permanent magnet and the cone emits the sound of that vibration. If the magnets on the outside are big, the voice coil must also be bigger to overcome the force of the static magnet.


    This is, of course, as un-detailed as I can make the explanation. It's way more complex.


    Your original quote is here:
    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    .... I think something is not quite right with your install ......2 Ohm speakers draw HALF the power that 4 Ohm ( the OEM speakers ) do ...... To the best of my knowledge Speaker Magnets ( or any rare earth ie. Molybdenum magnets ) don't use / draw any power at all, they are self magnetized .......... All OEM car radio's ( the basic ones in all cars ) are approx. 18 watts out-put .....JBL would have gone out of business a long time ago if they didn't work ....... jmho .... Mike
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  11. #36
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Default QUESTIONS ????

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Rider View Post
    Answering your "questions" is pointless because you don't listen.....or don't understand.....or both.
    Admit it , you just don't know the answers ........... People really shouldn't make comments when they have no idea what they are talking about, un-fortunately you don't understand that concept ............ Mike
    Last edited by BLUEKNIGHT911; 07-29-2018 at 05:46 PM.

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    Default OHM's - Impedance etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Rattlebars View Post
    [/FONT][/COLOR]


    Impedance is the same as ohms in a way. If the restriction at the end of a circuit has LESS OHMS, the current will flow more than if the restriction is MORE OHMS. A 2 ohm speaker will LET (draw) more power from the amp flow than a FOUR OHM speaker would LET (draw) through. Sometimes it lets too much current through and the amplifier will burn out. Quoted above is the actual page I linked.


    I'm convinced we merely have a discussion about definition. IMPEDANCE is roughly the same as RESISTANCE. If there is less resistance more juice will flow. More resistance, less will flow. Like opening the end of a hose.


    Speaker magnets are permanent around the big hickey on the outside. How a speaker works is that it takes the pulses from the amplifier and changes the properties of the VOICE COIL (electromagnet) which is hidden inside the center of the speaker. That change in properties causes the voice coil to move up and down (vibrate) inside the permanent magnet and the cone emits the sound of that vibration. If the magnets on the outside are big, the voice coil must also be bigger to overcome the force of the static magnet.


    This is, of course, as un-detailed as I can make the explanation. It's way more complex.


    Your original quote is here:
    You do realize that all this is beyond the pay grades of 99.99% of the folks on this Forum ....... and based on what you have posted above ..... I stand by my original " 2 Ohm's speakers draw .... LESS .... than 4 Ohm speakers. .... Thank you for your input on this topic...... The many Members here who followed my lead on the entire ...TWO OHM speaker thing .... are not likely to trash the JBL's ......... let's agree we can dis-agree and move on .... Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    I stand by my original " 2 Ohm's speakers draw .... LESS .... than 4 Ohm speakers. ....
    Of course you do.

    Because you are stubborn and aren't capable of listening and learning anything when your mind is already made up.
    In this case, you have it exactly backwards.
    Apparently this discussion is way, WAY above your "pay grade".

    The simple fact IS that a lower impedance speaker almost always needs to be fed more power to make the same level of audio output.
    If your amp is not capable of supplying that extra power, the sound quality will suffer and possible amp damage can result.

    Maybe a Google search for "ohms" will help but I seriously doubt it.
    A second search for "speaker impedance" might help too.

    Feeding this troll further is a waste of time.

  14. #39
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    Default OHM's - Impedance etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Rider View Post
    Of course you do.

    Because you are stubborn and aren't capable of listening and learning anything when your mind is already made up.
    In this case, you have it exactly backwards.
    Apparently this discussion is way, WAY above your "pay grade".

    The simple fact IS that a lower impedance speaker almost always needs to be fed more power to make the same level of audio output.
    If your amp is not capable of supplying that extra power, the sound quality will suffer and possible amp damage can result.

    Maybe a Google search for "ohms" will help but I seriously doubt it.
    A second search for "speaker impedance" might help too.

    Feeding this troll further is a waste of time.
    OK , OK , OK, You and Rattlebars are right and I'm wrong, I'm man enough to admit defeat ..... So first thing tomorrow I'm going to tear those CRAPPY - DANGEROUS 2 Ohm speakers off My RT and send them back to JBL and DEMAND they return my money ..... JBL has a lot of nerve selling those pieces of JUNK to an un-suspecting public ...... would it be OK if I sent them your info so you could explain to their Engineers just how STUPID they are !!!!! ...... and I'm also considering a LAWSUIT so I would really appreciate your EXPERT TESTIMONY on this ....... They may ask you about Ohm's etc. so be prepared .......... PS this TROLL is no longer interested in this topic, you have convinced me of the error of my mental in-eptitude ....... Thanks again for ALL the help on this subject .....after all what would Spyderlovers be without really, really smart folks like you ......Mike
    Last edited by BLUEKNIGHT911; 07-29-2018 at 09:53 PM.

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    We really need a dedicated 2018 thread, as it's definitely different.

    I now tried the GTO429 in front with and without tweeter, and was an absolute demerit, and before I get the pairing front and back bit... tried these at full fade.



    I=current

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    Very Active Member Rattlebars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    You do realize that all this is beyond the pay grades of 99.99% of the folks on this Forum ....... and based on what you have posted above ..... I stand by my original " 2 Ohm's speakers draw .... LESS .... than 4 Ohm speakers. .... Thank you for your input on this topic...... The many Members here who followed my lead on the entire ...TWO OHM speaker thing .... are not likely to trash the JBL's ......... let's agree we can dis-agree and move on .... Mike
    Again, we simply have a disagreement about terms, nothing more. "2 Ohm's speakers draw .... LESS" WHAT???

    You are speaking of RESISTANCE and I'm speaking of POWER. Oddly, this post >CLICK ME< shows you knew that 2 ohm speakers would double the power of your ST stereo. What you don't seem to know is that THIS CAN AND WILL FRY AN AMPLIFIER THAT CAN'T HANDLE THE EXTRA POWER (HEAT). That is why somebody warned you it might do just that.

    Again, you put those JBL speakers in a 2014 ST model that does not have the same stereo as does the 2016 + F3. I tested the JBL speakers you recommended and they won't work on a F3 stereo. In fact I don't believe there is a way to do it on the CAN BUS F3. I have no knowledge of the CAN BUS status of a 2014 ST. On the F3 the CAN BUS is a complete pain in the a$$.

    Further discussion with you will be avoided from now on. How's your MAGA hat doing?
    Last edited by Rattlebars; 07-30-2018 at 01:38 PM.
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  17. #42
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    Default OHM'S - IPEDENCE etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Rattlebars View Post
    Again, we simply have a disagreement about terms, nothing more. "2 Ohm's speakers draw .... LESS" WHAT??s ...on numerous posts from me I used the term " POWER "

    You are speaking of RESISTANCE and I'm speaking of POWER.....My mention of " RESISTANCE " was in connection to " IMPEDENCE ", because they are the SAME thing - - " Impedence is just an electrical term .....Oddly, this post >CLICK ME< shows you knew that 2 ohm speakers would double the power of your ST 14 .....In a few of my posts here I have Stated I have an ... RT ... NOT an ST !!! .........What you don't seem to know is that THIS CAN AND WILL FRY AN AMPLIFIER THAT CAN'T HANDLE THE EXTRA POWER (HEAT).... I agree with this as a " THEORY ", a piano can also fall and KILL you, and that is also a THEORY ..... I stated previously I have over 4 yrs and 40,000 mi. of listening pleasure with my " Theoretically dangers 2 Ohm speakers ....but to make " Easy Rider " feel like a winner ) possibly a New feeling ) I said I was going to Trash my JBL's and Sue JBL for false advertising ..... all this can be found in the following posts #16-19-21-23-40 ..... That is why somebody warned you it might do just that .., Yes that gave me to pause ... and Call JBL, Their Tech told me it wasn't an issue - He was correct

    Again, you put those JBL speakers in a 2014 ST model that does not have the same stereo as does the 2016 + F3. I tested the JBL speakers you recommended and they won't work on a F3 stereo. In fact I don't believe there is a way to do it on the CAN BUS F3. I have no knowledge of the CAN BUS status of a 2014 ST. On the F3 the CAN BUS is a complete pain in the a$$.

    Further discussion with you will be avoided from now on. How's your MAGA hat doing?
    Read my comments in BLUE above ..... and watch out for those Piano's ..... Until I read posts from Billy Bovine, I did not know BRP decided to get a WORSE radio system ...... BRP did the same thing with the DESS system ....some brilliant engineer decided something that worked fine - needed to be FIXED ..... Mike
    Last edited by BLUEKNIGHT911; 07-30-2018 at 02:37 PM.

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    This is actually a good thread, very interesting.

    I've been doing my own car audio system installs since I was 15 and I'm by no means an Electrical Engineer....the argument here is purely semantics. Typical car audio speakers are 4 ohms. You can find 1 ohm, or 2 ohm, or even 3...or 8 for that matter.

    Most OEM head units are pretty underpowered and rate around 15 watts per channel for a 4 ohm load (each channel). By reducing impedance, you're changing out a garden hose for a fire hose...the water isn't coming out any more powerful, but the restriction is reduced by quite a bit. Same thing with a 2 ohm load. The amplifier will typically deliver more wattage to a channel on a lower impedance than a higher one. Hence, a 2ohm speaker will essentially double the amplifiers output while drawing the same 12-14.5v of power....but there's more to it than that.

    Using the fire hose analogy again, just because you're now seeing more water volume from the same source, doesn't mean it's going to be sprayed where you want it. Same thing with sound output. While the output increases, you're going to get a much more "dirty" sound than what was delivered at a 4 ohm load. That's not to say it won't sound good, but THD or Total Harmonic Distortion will increase as the output of the amp or head unit impedance decreases. When you find an audiophile quality amp that's very expensive, it's typically because it can deliver a very low THD at 2 ohms or lower and thus, a very clean sound. That's what you're paying for.

    On the F3L, I'm getting an 18 tomorrow, so I don't have much seat time in one yet, but I thought the sound was pretty meh at 60 mph, no low end, pretty muddled highs and mids, (still better than the RT's though) so I thought about digging into it and getting some better sound out.....then I realize I can just play audio through my helmet's bluetooth system so it's kind of moot.

    Either way, putting in 2 ohm speakers on a system that was designed for 4 ohm can work, but it can also backfire by pushing the amp too hard can ultimately shorten it's life, or at the very least send in-audible distortion to your new speakers causing them to blow earlier in their life span too....but it not always. If it works for you, keep doing it and enjoy!

  19. #44
    Very Active Member BLUEKNIGHT911's Avatar
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    Default 2 ohm JBL speakers and the sound

    Quote Originally Posted by amcvay1979 View Post
    This is actually a good thread, very interesting.

    I've been doing my own car audio system installs since I was 15 and I'm by no means an Electrical Engineer....the argument here is purely semantics. Typical car audio speakers are 4 ohms. You can find 1 ohm, or 2 ohm, or even 3...or 8 for that matter.

    Most OEM head units are pretty underpowered and rate around 15 watts per channel for a 4 ohm load (each channel). By reducing impedance, you're changing out a garden hose for a fire hose...the water isn't coming out any more powerful, but the restriction is reduced by quite a bit. Same thing with a 2 ohm load. The amplifier will typically deliver more wattage to a channel on a lower impedance than a higher one. Hence, a 2ohm speaker will essentially double the amplifiers output while drawing the same 12-14.5v of power....but there's more to it than that.

    Using the fire hose analogy again, just because you're now seeing more water volume from the same source, doesn't mean it's going to be sprayed where you want it. Same thing with sound output. While the output increases, you're going to get a much more "dirty" sound than what was delivered at a 4 ohm load. That's not to say it won't sound good, but THD or Total Harmonic Distortion will increase as the output of the amp or head unit impedance decreases. When you find an audiophile quality amp that's very expensive, it's typically because it can deliver a very low THD at 2 ohms or lower and thus, a very clean sound. That's what you're paying for.

    On the F3L, I'm getting an 18 tomorrow, so I don't have much seat time in one yet, but I thought the sound was pretty meh at 60 mph, no low end, pretty muddled highs and mids, (still better than the RT's though) so I thought about digging into it and getting some better sound out.....then I realize I can just play audio through my helmet's bluetooth system so it's kind of moot.

    Either way, putting in 2 ohm speakers on a system that was designed for 4 ohm can work, but it can also backfire by pushing the amp too hard can ultimately shorten it's life, or at the very least send in-audible distortion to your new speakers causing them to blow earlier in their life span too....but it not always. If it works for you, keep doing it and enjoy!
    I agree what you have stated is interesting …….. interesting in that your claims are based on " THEORY " …..mine are based on ACTUALLY having the speakers installed with complete success for over 40,000 miles of listening..... I did this swap 4+ yrs. ago and was told about the " THEORY " of possible destruction of the speakers and or the entire system …. So I contacted JBL and was assured the " Destruction " was NOT going to occur and it appears the JBL engineers know what they are selling ……. If you go to Spyder Quest next year I will be very happy to demonstrate my " 2 ohm JBL speakers " for you...…….. I'm curious about the word " meh " above …. I realize it was a typo ….. what did you mean to type ????? …… Thanks …. Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLUEKNIGHT911 View Post
    I agree what you have stated is interesting …….. interesting in that your claims are based on " THEORY " …..mine are based on ACTUALLY having the speakers installed with complete success for over 40,000 miles of listening..... I did this swap 4+ yrs. ago and was told about the " THEORY " of possible destruction of the speakers and or the entire system …. So I contacted JBL and was assured the " Destruction " was NOT going to occur and it appears the JBL engineers know what they are selling ……. If you go to Spyder Quest next year I will be very happy to demonstrate my " 2 ohm JBL speakers " for you...…….. I'm curious about the word " meh " above …. I realize it was a typo ….. what did you mean to type ????? …… Thanks …. Mike
    I meant Meh...as in nothing to write home about. The volume kills the low end and distortion comes right behind it. Typically when I do my car installs I throw more watts at speakers than they're advertised to handle, only by providing ultra clean power to the speakers. Then you'll get loud, but also detailed ranges and even though you're providing 2 or 3 times the power they're advertised to handle, the speakers live on for years and years.

    I don't doubt your speakers sound great and are still going strong, it all depends on the internals of the amp or stock head unit. If they're built well and are stable at 2 ohms with a low THD it's a beautiful thing.

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    Very Active Member Rattlebars's Avatar
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    Good post. The 18 is different than the 16-17 in that the actual audio unit is inside the dash instead of under the "seat" or so I'm told. I read in the manual that the OEM audio unit puts out 80 watts (which I don't believe for a minute). The audio is harsh and muddy at the same time so that 80 watts ???? meh. The OEM "woofers" have a magnet that is about as round as a quarter and about an inch deep if you have not see them.

    If you are successful, please start a new thread about it. I would be very interested.



    Quote Originally Posted by amcvay1979 View Post
    This is actually a good thread, very interesting.

    I've been doing my own car audio system installs since I was 15 and I'm by no means an Electrical Engineer....the argument here is purely semantics. Typical car audio speakers are 4 ohms. You can find 1 ohm, or 2 ohm, or even 3...or 8 for that matter.

    Most OEM head units are pretty underpowered and rate around 15 watts per channel for a 4 ohm load (each channel). By reducing impedance, you're changing out a garden hose for a fire hose...the water isn't coming out any more powerful, but the restriction is reduced by quite a bit. Same thing with a 2 ohm load. The amplifier will typically deliver more wattage to a channel on a lower impedance than a higher one. Hence, a 2ohm speaker will essentially double the amplifiers output while drawing the same 12-14.5v of power....but there's more to it than that.

    Using the fire hose analogy again, just because you're now seeing more water volume from the same source, doesn't mean it's going to be sprayed where you want it. Same thing with sound output. While the output increases, you're going to get a much more "dirty" sound than what was delivered at a 4 ohm load. That's not to say it won't sound good, but THD or Total Harmonic Distortion will increase as the output of the amp or head unit impedance decreases. When you find an audiophile quality amp that's very expensive, it's typically because it can deliver a very low THD at 2 ohms or lower and thus, a very clean sound. That's what you're paying for.

    On the F3L, I'm getting an 18 tomorrow, so I don't have much seat time in one yet, but I thought the sound was pretty meh at 60 mph, no low end, pretty muddled highs and mids, (still better than the RT's though) so I thought about digging into it and getting some better sound out.....then I realize I can just play audio through my helmet's bluetooth system so it's kind of moot.

    Either way, putting in 2 ohm speakers on a system that was designed for 4 ohm can work, but it can also backfire by pushing the amp too hard can ultimately shorten it's life, or at the very least send in-audible distortion to your new speakers causing them to blow earlier in their life span too....but it not always. If it works for you, keep doing it and enjoy!
    to see my 2016 F3-T and many how to's
    2016 F3-T SE6 Roadster , Extended brake pedal for which I drilled out the brake rod yolk to lower it and added spacers to lift it slightly Black/Grey

  22. #47
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    Default impedance

    Hi guys, hello from France (sorry for my English)
    what is the impedance BRP speaker 4,5" ? 2 or 4 ohms ? if it is 2 ohms, there isn't speaker in the trade
    FM sound is bad
    USB sound is better but it's still average
    what is the solution ?
    thank
    JP

  23. #48
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MagYukon View Post
    Hi all Spyder Riders,

    Has anyone ever added or modified F3T's original speakers for something better?

    I like the integrated radio and that I can stream music from my iPhone directly through the USB cable, but i'd like to improve the sound quality.

    I was thinking about changing the front speakers or to add something in the rear (I don't have the BRP top case).

    I I had something in the rear, will I need to purchase the BRP rear amplifier or can I add any after market one ?

    Any comment or experience is appreciated as always !

    Thanks
    I can tell you the speakers that came out of my 2011 RT looked like WalMart quality.. Replaced the rear with Kenwood and the front with Xfinity speakers and sounds GREAT..

  24. #49
    Very Active Member Rattlebars's Avatar
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    Girard OH (summer) Greenville SC (winter)
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    Default

    This tread is in the F3 section hence RT references are not useful but thanks anyway.
    to see my 2016 F3-T and many how to's
    2016 F3-T SE6 Roadster , Extended brake pedal for which I drilled out the brake rod yolk to lower it and added spacers to lift it slightly Black/Grey

  25. #50

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