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  1. #351
    Very Active Member Joe T.'s Avatar
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    It is time for an honest, realistic discussion of the actual meaning, in the context of our Founding Fathers, what the 2nd Amendment means in today's world. Also, that discussion should include Social Media and Video Games/Entertainment's role in the situation we find ourselves in today.

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  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieSpyder View Post
    Millions of Americans do NOT agree. Maybe you should say "virtually everyone I know."
    According to two independent recent polls by nationally recognized polling organizations the number of Americans who believe in "gun control" (not further defined) exceeds 60% and is growing significantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieSpyder View Post
    The NRA donations to campaigns is a drop in the bucket compared to union and Planned Parenthood contributions. The NRA's clout comes from the huge membership it represents, and they vote!
    Planned Parenthood contributed (2018) the following: House $65,000 Senate $33,000.

    The NRA contributed: Contributions to candidates: $834,165
    Contributions to Leadership PACs: $28,550
    Contributions to parties: $218,435
    Contributions to 527 committees: $2,500
    Contributions to outside spending groups: $500

    The NRA's clout comes from the support of gun makers (dollars are in the tens of millions). The NRA is in the pocket of gun manufacturers and Congress is in the pocket of the NRA. You can google countless confirmations of this.

    The NRA claims about 5 million members. That is about 1.5% of the US population and about 7% of all gun owners.

    You have an astounding lack of credibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
    Glad to see that you're back with nothing useful to add...
    Don't like people who disagree with your position huh bob.

    BTW, I'm not anti gun, just anti military style weapons that have no redeeming value beyond killing people. I am also anti people who refuse to listen to arguments under the guise of "well cars kill people, , knives kill people, drugs kill people are we supposed to bans those". Yada yada yada, What crap.
    Something needs to be done. What been done up to now is obviously not working. When you bury your head in the sand behind the 2nd amendment you become part of the problem.
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  4. #354
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    "Over the last 20 years, the NRA has spent a total of $200 million on political activities...So let's compare that number to the amount of money unions have donated...Organized labor spent $1.7 billion with a "b" on politics and lobbying during 2016 alone!" http://www.wibc.com/blogs/chicks-rig...ions-dwarf-nra

    " . . .
    Planned Parenthood, the nation’s largest abortion seller and recipient of half a billion dollars in taxpayer funding every year, spent $38 million on the 2016 election alone." http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/06/planned-parenthood-far-outspends-the-nra-in-buying-influence/

    That's $38 million in one election year compared to $200 million over 20 years for the NRA.
    PrairieSpyder (Patti)

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieSpyder View Post
    "Over the last 20 years, the NRA has spent a total of $200 million on political activities...So let's compare that number to the amount of money unions have donated...Organized labor spent $1.7 billion with a "b" on politics and lobbying during 2016 alone!" http://www.wibc.com/blogs/chicks-rig...ions-dwarf-nra

    " . . .
    Planned Parenthood, the nation’s largest abortion seller and recipient of half a billion dollars in taxpayer funding every year, spent $38 million on the 2016 election alone." http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/06/planned-parenthood-far-outspends-the-nra-in-buying-influence/

    That's $38 million in one election year compared to $200 million over 20 years for the NRA.
    Do you have an actual source for this information? The links you provided go to a blog that quotes "The Federalist" co-founder Sean Davis for the information you're repeating. If the source came from Planned Parenthood itself or some political campaign records, fine, but it's not cited that way. How the heck would Sean Davis know this information?

    The amounts previously quoted ($102K/$33K) come from https://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pac...cmte=C00314617, which also has no source attached to it and is equally suspect IMHO.

    Then there is the "Daily Signal" blog, that says the amount is $34M (which is $4M less that you cited) but again, are blogs serious evidence? http://dailysignal.com/2016/11/03/pl...ect-democrats/

    Politifact says that Planned Parenthood spent about $6.5M in the 2014 elections based on campaign finance reports ... that sounds better than just blogs but who knows if it's true, either ... plus it's 2014 rather than 2018 data. See http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-gives-millio/

    I didn't even bother to look up the NRA's information. Why bother? Everything is lies and manipulation to try to influence people. Nothing is trustworthy.
    2017 RTS , Blue

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieSpyder View Post
    "Over the last 20 years, the NRA has spent a total of $200 million on political activities...So let's compare that number to the amount of money unions have donated...Organized labor spent $1.7 billion with a "b" on politics and lobbying during 2016 alone!" http://www.wibc.com/blogs/chicks-right/union-campaign-donations-dwarf-nra


    What possible connection do "union" contributions have with that of the NRA? There are hundreds of unions versus only one NRA. It is quite logical that their relative contributions would be unequal. And the big difference, of course, is that union money is largely from its members while the NRA receives it majority from gun manufacturers. The NRA used to be a worthwhile organization but is now nothing but a tool for the gun makers.

    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieSpyder View Post
    " . . .Planned Parenthood, the nation’s largest abortion seller and recipient of half a billion dollars in taxpayer funding every year, spent $38 million on the 2016 election alone." http://dailycaller.com/2017/10/06/planned-parenthood-far-outspends-the-nra-in-buying-influence/
    You are obviously referring to PP's abortion services but that is only a fraction of the services it provides - mostly to women who cannot afford those services on their own - and that's where their income comes from. If you have a beef with those services you are addressing the wrong party.

    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieSpyder View Post
    That's $38 million in one election year compared to $200 million over 20 years for the NRA.
    You are talking about money intended to drive specific legislation versus money used for public services. Two different animals.

  7. #357
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    Only 1.5% of Americans belong to the NRA. I still maintain the moms and students, on both sides, will drive this debate.
    2015 RTL , Yes Pearl White

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
    Only 1.5% of Americans belong to the NRA. I still maintain the moms and students, on both sides, will drive this debate.
    While : I very much prefer a discussion based upon fact, and not just emotion.

    After all... "If you listen to fools":

    2010 RT A&C, RT-L, RT-L , Orbital Blue, Cognac, Jet Black

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    Go out and learn what gun control really means. Look at Australia and read what their gun control done. They took the guns away from the honest people and their crime rate went up a lot. So when you here all these rich stars and so called government workers we elected talk about taking guns away from people. Lets take their guns away from their security guards and give them a baton to defend them with and see how that goes.

  10. #360
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    I have seen some suggestions that DO bear closer scrutiny:
    Expanded Background checks
    "Red Flag" Laws
    The "hardening" of Schools
    Getting rid of Bump-stocks...

    I'm not necessarily opposed to looking at raising the age limit to 21: but I really don't see where it would have much (if any) effect.

    Please keep in mind that NONE of this will solve the problem: you STILL need to address the changing social values of our Society.
    The Evil within us will still find a way to cause carnage...
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    When I said after 1986, no new machine guns could be sold to the public. Anybody with enough money and the ability to pass the stringent background check, can buy a previously transferable machine gun. The NRA has done more to promote gun safety than any other organization. They are being blamed for something they did not cause. I think that this has started a move to destroy the NRA and to further the agenda to disarm the USA.

  12. #362
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    The NRA is all about responsible ownership!


    Why?

    Because every tragedy starts crap like this!
    2010 RT A&C, RT-L, RT-L , Orbital Blue, Cognac, Jet Black

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
    I have seen some suggestions that DO bear closer scrutiny:
    Expanded Background checks
    "Red Flag" Laws
    The "hardening" of Schools
    Getting rid of Bump-stocks...

    I'm not necessarily opposed to looking at raising the age limit to 21: but I really don't see where it would have much (if any) effect.

    Please keep in mind that NONE of this will solve the problem: you STILL need to address the changing social values of our Society.
    The Evil within us will still find a way to cause carnage...

    Bob, please tell us why you, or anyone else, would have an objection to raising the age to 21 for any gun purchases.
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    Today is cash.......spend it wisely.

  14. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
    While : I very much prefer a discussion based upon fact, and not just emotion.

    After all... "If you listen to fools":

    Agreed Bob. Just judging on comments on various forums this will not be easy. I find it fascinating no matter what your point of view on the issue how effective the media has been in getting their particular message across. I see the same examples being parroted everywhere. I’m not sure that is going to be helpful when it comes to resolving the issue either as the talking points we are being fed aren’t really designed to help the conversation as opposed to creating the kind of emotional responses I read in many places.
    Last edited by LeftCoast; 02-25-2018 at 10:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR. H1956 View Post
    Go out and learn what gun control really means. Look at Australia and read what their gun control done. They took the guns away from the honest people and their crime rate went up a lot. So when you here all these rich stars and so called government workers we elected talk about taking guns away from people. Lets take their guns away from their security guards and give them a baton to defend them with and see how that goes.
    Where is your Australian info coming from? We have a number of S/L members from Australia. How about we let them tell us what the truth is.

  16. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
    I have seen some suggestions that DO bear closer scrutiny:
    Expanded Background checks
    "Red Flag" Laws
    The "hardening" of Schools
    Getting rid of Bump-stocks...

    I'm not necessarily opposed to looking at raising the age limit to 21: but I really don't see where it would have much (if any) effect.

    Please keep in mind that NONE of this will solve the problem: you STILL need to address the changing social values of our Society.
    The Evil within us will still find a way to cause carnage...
    I haven't read thru all the posts, so this may have been answered. Is the thinking that those between the age of 18 and 21 don't show enough maturity for responsible gun ownership? If that's the case, why are they in the military?

  17. #367
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    Ron,
    That's my concern about this issue also.
    2010 RT A&C, RT-L, RT-L , Orbital Blue, Cognac, Jet Black

  18. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR. H1956 View Post
    Go out and learn what gun control really means. Look at Australia and read what their gun control done. They took the guns away from the honest people and their crime rate went up a lot. So when you here all these rich stars and so called government workers we elected talk about taking guns away from people. Lets take their guns away from their security guards and give them a baton to defend them with and see how that goes.
    I don’t know where the “Take all your guns away and let’s see how they do with batons” got started but I wish I could quell it.

    First it is logistically impossible in this country to take everyone’s guns away, it’s just not going to happen. We are not Australia. The entire population of Australia is less than that of California by itself.

    Second although I’m sure you can find people who would like to take all the guns away I guarantee they are not in any sort of position to make this happen, nor are they any sort of majority, AND most “liberals” I know believe in the second amendment and aren’t interested in seeing it repealed. I’m not and I’m a gun owner.

    Third, I think we need to watch fewer news sources and actually talk to each other to find out what someone means by everything from gun control to supporting all the NRA’s positions instead of being told by a talking head with an agenda what someone else’s position is. In many cases we may not be as far apart as “they” want us to believe we are.

    Look at me, I said I wasn’t going to post much here on this issue. I think I’ll call it a day. Hope all of you get some good riding weather and enjoy your Sunday.
    Last edited by LeftCoast; 02-25-2018 at 11:21 AM.
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  19. #369
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    Default The biggest picture isn't in your camera

    I am a retired naval bomb disposal officer with tours in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan - I qualified expert on both rifles and pistols
    I own 1 rifle, 3 pistols - they are all in safes and will stay there unless needed to kill a rabid animal or the likes.
    I used to hunt but do not anymore - although I still eat game when someone else brings it to the table

    More important to this conversation and thread on the forum and nationally - I have two children, a son and a daughter in their 40's, with 3 grandchildren in elementary school
    I work in a health care related field with people on the "edge" or Verge" and often times in chronic pain...... mental health issues abound in this country yet our mental health care systems and pain management methods are deplorable - gutted - is a good term.

    If you had a daughter or son of legal age or spouse with mental health problems, and they already owned a gun - you COULD NOT have it taken away from them. Here in Alabama as I was told "unless there is an incident there is no problem". Very hard to have someone legally declared a danger to themselves or others.
    Depression and schizophrenia and other forms of metal illness like PTSD don't always advertise themselves in a way that gets folks locked up or gets them mandated help.
    Even folks with professional help - go off their meds - and the issues return.
    We live at a time when info streams so fast and our little peoples are exposed to sooooo damn much violence on the t.v., the video games, 23 years of endless war and military conflicts and endless terrorist attacks that our most delicate minds, our children and those with mental illness are being ravaged by fear and warped by repetitive images of violence.... many in single parent homes.

    We sit behind our little computer screens and type how important the 2nd amendment is to our rights. To our safety our security our happiness and rights of self determination but none of us (that I know of) has a child or loved one that has bleed out at school or a concert, because the mental health system failed to inform the judicial system (due to someone's privacy rights) THAT DANGER WAS AT HAND.

    YOUR LOVED ones are in DANGER!! We worry so much about the rights of the individual (and criminal) without being more concerned with the rights of the masses (victims).

    Lots of analogies are available from fertilizer bombs, to drinking and smoking to texting and driving and so on..... but nothing can inflict so much pain and suffering on so many people (families) churches (people) communities AS SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN LOST IN THE SYSTEM WHICH HAS FAILED THEM and they snap....and a very lethal weapon is conveniently close at hand. Maybe they were bullied, maybe rejected, maybe just lost in the darkness of despair after loosing the only person that they ever loved, even if it was a pet - it doesn't matter why, when you go over the edge you go over the edge and finding bottom is never pleasant.

    Will reducing the # of rounds a weapon can hold to 6 stop the deaths? NO - but it will help
    Will removing weapons capable of inflicting mass destruction stop the deaths? NO - but it will help
    Will improving the mental health care affordability and access and referral system in this country stop the deaths? NO - but it will help
    Will computerized and anonymous reporting of potentially dangerous people (on the verge) or whatever by a family member stop the deaths? NO but it will help.
    Will temporarily removing the guns from a home where firearm security (safes and trigger locks) are not available stop the deaths? NO but it will help
    Will putting the lives of people in mass before the enjoyment of single right to bear arms gun ownership stop the deaths? NO but it will help
    Will getting the entertainment industry like Hollywood and video game producers to minimize violent content stop the deaths? No but it will help
    Will politicians stop taking monies from the firearm industry stop the deaths? NO but it will help

    These are just a few things that, IMO, would help, and each of them comes with many pro's and con's; but together, collectively, they could make a huge difference.

    If one of these things could stop your most loved one from dying tomorrow - what would that be worth to you?

  20. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR. H1956 View Post
    Go out and learn what gun control really means. Look at Australia and read what their gun control done. They took the guns away from the honest people and their crime rate went up a lot. So when you here all these rich stars and so called government workers we elected talk about taking guns away from people. Lets take their guns away from their security guards and give them a baton to defend them with and see how that goes.
    Like most people on your side of the debate you are either misinformed or illiterate.

    https://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoilerAnimal View Post
    Bob, please tell us why you, or anyone else, would have an objection to raising the age to 21 for any gun purchases.
    Take a look at Wylie's post (#365)

    And where did I say that I was absolutely against it?
    (I NEVER did... )
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    Oh! Without resorting to using your Search Engines...

    Who in here can actually explain why The Bump Stock was developed????




    If it's outlawed: who will be yelling the loudest about it???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinegunner View Post
    When I said after 1986, no new machine guns could be sold to the public. Anybody with enough money and the ability to pass the stringent background check, can buy a previously transferable machine gun.
    You need to be specific in your posts because that is not what you previously posted. And by "transferable" you really mean "existing".

    Quote Originally Posted by Machinegunner View Post
    The NRA has done more to promote gun safety than any other organization.
    They used to. Not any longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machinegunner View Post
    They are being blamed for something they did not cause. I think that this has started a move to destroy the NRA and to further the agenda to disarm the USA.
    The NRA is NOT being blamed for the mass shootings but is rightfully being blamed for buying politicians votes so that meaningful gun control cannot be passed.

    The NRA can either revert back to what it was during its first 100 years or it can see itself made irrelevant. Keeping people like La Pierre in the leadership will greatly speed its demise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
    The NRA is all about responsible ownership!


    Why?

    Because every tragedy starts crap like this!
    This isn't CRAP! These are the lives of our children and other innocent people.

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    Think about this gun nuts:

    I am in significantly more danger of being shot with a gun here in my own country than in almost any other country in the world. And I don't live in Detroit or Chicago.

    America, the "greatest country"? HA! Put the above in the list of the many reason why this is no longer the case.

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