ar-15

[Bob Denman]

1. Arm teachers. Teachers are not first responders and most would not be able to take appropriate action against a shooter who, in most cases, is armed with much more fire power than a handgun. This would also put a teacher in the first line of fire in a shooter environment and virtually guarantee they would get shot right off the bat. Shooters are not stupid and would go after armed civilians first. This might have been reasonable thinking in the 50's where many teachers were WWII vets but that is not the case today.

Did you know that Texas not only allows their Teachers to be armed: they encourage it....
Governor Scott was interviewed about this fact today on Neil Cavuto's show..
They're certainly not forced to carry. It's 100% voluntary, and they are given the training to handle the task.

[Machinegunner]

Because slavery is illegal, cocaine is illegal, and many other things are illegal. Guns are protected by the Constitution of the United States of America. The greatest nation on earth. We have some problems that have grown out of neglect. We need our mental hospitals back. They were closed because we were told the mentally ill could self medicate. How's that working? Some people just have to be removed from society. We have to quit living in our fantasy world of our phones and start interacting with others like we used to. We have to protect our kids and make America great again.

[Mad Mac]

Because slavery is illegal, cocaine is illegal, and many other things are illegal. Guns are protected by the Constitution of the United States of America. The greatest nation on earth. We have some problems that have grown out of neglect. We need our mental hospitals back. They were closed because we were told the mentally ill could self medicate. How's that working? Some people just have to be removed from society. We have to quit living in our fantasy world of our phones and start interacting with others like we used to. We have to protect our kids and make America great again.

AGAIN, another SOLID point! Mac

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Because slavery is illegal, cocaine is illegal, and many other things are illegal. Guns are protected by the Constitution of the United States of America. The greatest nation on earth. We have some problems that have grown out of neglect. We need our mental hospitals back. They were closed because we were told the mentally ill could self medicate. How's that working? Some people just have to be removed from society. We have to quit living in our fantasy world of our phones and start interacting with others like we used to. We have to protect our kids and make America great again.

Yes but slavery & cocaine were both very much legal & accepted in the u.s. over 125 years ago. Why were they made
illegal, is it because we eventually realized it was wrong? How long until we also realize things about our 2nd
amendment may be wrong or overstretched? I always say just because it is legal doesn't mean it is right. Why are
rpg's not legal and covered under the 2nd amendment or why am i not allowed to scream shark at the beach under
the 1st amendment?

[Bob Denman]

Times often DO change the Laws...
But just because you want something to be illegal: doesn't mean that it ever will be.
And since it still is legal to own firearms (within certain guidelines): we just ask that we be allowed to exercise our right to do so; without undo harassment from folks who choose not to.

[Blue Star]

Yes but slavery & cocaine were both very much legal & accepted in the u.s. over 100 years ago. Why were they made
illegal, is it because we eventually realized it was wrong? How long until we also realize things about our 2nd
amendment may be wrong or overstretched? I always say just because it is legal doesn't mean it is right. Why are
rpg's not legal and covered under the 2nd amendment or why am i not allowed to scream shark at the beach under
the 1st amendment?

Umm, slaves would be people, people have rights. Guns are an object, objects don't have rights.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

Times often DO change the Laws...
But just because you want something to be illegal: doesn't mean that it ever will be.
And since it still is legal to own firearms (within certain guidelines): we just ask that we be allowed to exercise our right to do so; without undo harassment from folks who choose not to.

bob that is the point "within certain guidelines", the nra & many gun owners don't understand that semi auto rifles and
certain bullets push the boundaries of safety for all. how long did it take for all to accept "buckle up it saves lives" but
not wearing a seat belt won't matter to the tree you hit or the car you hit.

[johnsimion]

Rather than saying what won't work: tell us about what you would suggest...
I suggested hardening the targets: because this tactic does work... at a price.
Are taxpayers willing to pay it?

My own kids went to school in Palm Beach County, Florida, from 2000-2007. I can assure you that Polo Park Middle School is completely hardened as you recommend, as was Palm Beach Central High School. You had to be buzzed in to the central courtyards of such schools and they'd run off anybody else anywhere around (one day my wife was mistaken for an errant student). Was the school in Broward County similarly hardened? I don't know, but I don't really think such "hardening" would do much good against a determined guy with an AR-15. Metal doors? Shoot off the locks or (remember, Cruz was once a student himself) just hide the gun and sneak inside behind someone else. Locked doors on the inside? Totally useless, those would be even easier to shoot off than the locks on the outside doors. Would these measures slow down a shooter? Yes, probably at least a minute or two, but how long does it take to unload two or three magazines once you're inside? Cruz was only inside for about 3-4 minutes from what I've read. Add another couple of minutes to that time and the police will only arrive 18 minutes late instead of 20. My take is that hardening is better than nothing but that's about it. A metal detector would be better than hardening, at least that would set off the alarm and give people a chance to react before the bullets started flying.

[johnsimion]

In an interview taped three years ago the school resource officer said he had been a cop for 30 years and a SRO for 25 of those years.

It looked like he sat too close to the donut box during most of those years.

I wonder if the Broward Sheriff's Office has a penalty for Dereliction of Duty?

I tend to agree but I wonder if we have all the facts? I mean, what was he trained to do? Did he fail to watch who was entering the building? Did he call 911 once the shooting started? That's about all I'd expect him to do. Was he wearing a bulletproof vest? I don't know the answers to these questions, but you can't seriously expect a security guard with nothing but a handgun to go charging in by himself to take on a lunatic with an AR-15, especially if he didn't even have a vest.

[Bob Denman]

...I do recall saying that this will require a multifaceted approach.
Glad to hear that your School was pro-active!

[Bob Denman]

A vest wouldn't stop a .223 round...
But training and tactics would stop the assailant!

[johnsimion]

A vest wouldn't stop a .223 round...
But training and tactics would stop the assailant!

That's interesting -- I learned something. Still, though, if a vest won't even protect the guy, I don't see how we could expect a security guard to take on an assailant with an AR-15, unless the security guard was, e.g., Chuck Norris. Maybe a SWAT guy could do it, I dunno, but you won't get many SWAT guys willing to be security guards at schools. Still think the metal detector is the best idea I've seen yet.

[Bob Denman]

A metal detector is a good idea... They'll keep the knives out!
But a smart and evil dude will just shoot his way past it...

[ES44AC]

My little brother was a teacher /football coach at a high school with gang problems and so on. The teacher's could never get rid of the thugs who over and over again brought problems with them every day. The liberal administration would bow down and let the thugs come back to school because they are such great kids.They only brought drugs, guns, knives ,stolen goods and fights. Many more kids have died because liberals won't deal with the bad apple's.

We have got a problem punishing the right people ,not law abiding citizens like me that enjoy my legally owned property.

Motorcycles riders have very high risk of death ,do you want to ban them ? Forks cause people to die from obesity, do we ban forks ? It's the same mentality for banning the AR15 I own that have never killed anyone.

[RinconRyder]

As I understand it: he's no longer on the Force.
I'm just not sure if he was fired; or "allowed" to retire...

The reports I heard said he was first suspended without pay after which he "retired". No details.

[RinconRyder]

1. Arm teachers. Teachers are not first responders and most would not be able to take appropriate action against a shooter who, in most cases, is armed with much more fire power than a handgun. This would also put a teacher in the first line of fire in a shooter environment and virtually guarantee they would get shot right off the bat. Shooters are not stupid and would go after armed civilians first. This might have been reasonable thinking in the 50's where many teachers were WWII vets but that is not the case today.

Did you know that Texas not only allows their Teachers to be armed: they encourage it....
Governor Scott was interviewed about this fact today on Neil Cavuto's show..
They're certainly not forced to carry. It's 100% voluntary, and they are given the training to handle the task.

CBS interviewed a teacher (I forgot his location but believe it was in rural CO) who stuffs a Glock 9mm in his boot (with District permission). I just wonder if he is prepared to challenge an AR-15 with his little tiny Glock.

[RinconRyder]

Because slavery is illegal, cocaine is illegal, and many other things are illegal. Guns are protected by the Constitution of the United States of America. The greatest nation on earth. We have some problems that have grown out of neglect. We need our mental hospitals back. They were closed because we were told the mentally ill could self medicate. How's that working? Some people just have to be removed from society. We have to quit living in our fantasy world of our phones and start interacting with others like we used to. We have to protect our kids and make America great again.

The Constitution permits an "armed militia". It does not permit a totally armed civilian population with military type weapons. This ain't 1776 any longer.

America lost the title of World's Greatest Nation long ago. Here is a reminder: (go to the 1:14 mark)



Listen to it all the way through. Then think.

[RinconRyder]

I tend to agree but I wonder if we have all the facts? I mean, what was he trained to do? Did he fail to watch who was entering the building? Did he call 911 once the shooting started? That's about all I'd expect him to do. Was he wearing a bulletproof vest? I don't know the answers to these questions, but you can't seriously expect a security guard with nothing but a handgun to go charging in by himself to take on a lunatic with an AR-15, especially if he didn't even have a vest.

The answers are:

He was armed with a handgun (service revolver) and was in uniform.

He had many years experience as a school resource officer so it is assumed he knew he was required to neutralize a shooter (which he did not do - he stayed outside the building).

He did apparently notify the police there was a shooter in the building but made no attempt to confront him.

Most police these days wear vests but it was not published whether or not he was so equipped.

Your last sentence makes my point. A person/teacher/cop armed only with a handgun is no match for someone with a semi-auto long big caliber gun. Arming teachers simply puts them at more risk than they already are.

One more thing - your high school was fortunate it was built in a defensive circle (much like a wagon train under attack by Apaches) but that is not the ordinary layout. Most high schools have multiple exits and entrances and it would cost an ungodly fortune to try to re-engineer all of them into fortresses with a single point of entry.

My local elementary school has fences and rules that require visitors to enter via the office before going anywhere else on campus. None of these rules will stop a shooter who goes right to the cafeteria or school room.

[RinconRyder]

They're certainly not forced to carry. It's 100% voluntary, and they are given the training to handle the task.

I saw training in action in Vietnam. Much more training than any teacher will ever get. And a significant number of those trained men either froze or ran the first time under fire.

My son had the same experience in Kosovo in the Marine Corps and god knows they are far better trained than civilians.

[Mad Mac]

I've got to chime in here and I know you guy's are going to think I'm crazy and maybe I am but here goes. Along with the school resource officer, their were 3 more deputies that responded while the shooter was still active. Now the way I see it, they are trained to use "tactics" to access the school or they should have been familiar with this particular school, but nobody went in, until two or three city police officers arrived and they went in and the shooting had stopped. Now I worked for a Podunk department here in Wisc. and our deputies go thru "Active Shooter" training at the local high school twice a year along with the city police, EMS, and fire departments. I would hope all sheriffs departments and city police throughout this nation would have gone thru some sort of similar training with all the school shootings we have had in this country, and when you are paid to do a job, do it! Mac

[LeftCoast]

Can we cancel Trumps military parade and use the money to fund some of the suggestions here?

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

I'm pretty sure prohibition (18th amendment) was repealed so too could the 2nd amendment. i am not saying to
do so but i wish people would stop saying 2nd amendment like it was written in stone and guarded by nukes.

[Bob Denman]

The Constitution permits an "armed militia". It does not permit a totally armed civilian population with military type weapons. This ain't 1776 any longer.

The Heller Decision does guarantee our right to own firearms. There was never any mention as to what type in the Bill of Rights; because you used whatever you had, for whatever you needed done.

But since you brought up timeframes: should the First Amendment be reviewed and modified? after all; the Framers of our Constitution never envisioned the speed at which communication occurs today.

[Machinegunner]

I can't believe someone would even suggest repealing the 2nd. amendment. That would start a whole new crisis. Why are we continuing trying to ban the AR-15? Most semi-automatic deer rifles are far more powerful and have detachable magazines. Are we going to ban those also? What about the semi-auto shot guns that duck hunters use? Millions of sportsmen don't break the laws, so they should be punished? Let's address the real issue of mental health. Plus quit bashing the NRA. They started the NICs program and tried to get the mental health records posted to the NICs in 1993, but congress would not do it. How many of these mass shooters were members of the NRA? NONE. The NRA is not the problem.

[Bob Denman]

I'm pretty sure prohibition (18th amendment) was repealed so too could the 2nd amendment. i am not saying to
do so but i wish people would stop saying 2nd amendment like it was written in stone and guarded by nukes.

The 18th Amendment was one that restricted rights: it didn't guarantee them.