ar-15

[RinconRyder]

????
How did I change the subject? We are discussing killings in schools! You say there is a "gun problem" in this country. I say you are wrong! There is NOT a gun problem, a gun is in inanimate object and can do nothing by itself, for pete's sake. We have a "human problem" and until we try to fix that there is no Band-Aid fix that will make a damn bit of difference.

Some of us need to take off the blinders we wear when we read stuff, stop listening to those driven by an agenda and actually THINK FOR OURSELVES. Seems that some of us are extremely closed minded.

You DID attempt to change the subject - from gun issues to abortion. They are not the same thing and do not have the same complicating factors. But just let me say this:

Until each and every Right To Lifer volunteers to adopt and raise, at their own expense, those unwanted fetuses (they are not "babies" until they are born) do not foist their expenses upon people like me. I raised my children at my own expense and do not want to pay to raise multiple generations of "welfare babies". If that sounds harsh then so be it but until you have a better solution don't harangue me about abortion.

And, you are absolutely WRONG about the "people problem". Since it is apparently impossible to tell who might commit a mass murder with a gun the only other reasonable response is to remove the weapon doing the damage.

[Mad Mac]

Wow Bob, I have to agree with Pete on all counts, I respect you and your opinions, even though I may disagree with them. I believe that when we meet we will become good friends, in fact I count you as a friend now! So let's all agree to disagree, and respect each other, and our diversity of opinions. That diversity, when channeled effectively, leads to positive discourse, and resolution of issues! As for the "hatred" laid down by Mac, that has no place anywhere except in the dark recesses of his "mind" and heart?...

I have no "dark recesses", I just call it like I see it! And if you guy's can't deal with a little "criticism", Then maybe you need to get a little bit more "thick" skinned. My attitude is why I have survived 20 years with societies wayward children, hell , even adults. It sucks that I (and others in the career field) have seen more crap in those years than a normal person should ever see or experience, I do not wear the "rose colored" glasses that some people do, so yeh I can be a little opinionated. My outlook on society can be a little "gray" a times. But I'm good with the way I feel and believe it or NOT, I can respect my fellow man or woman, and show compassion towards same. Mac

[RinconRyder]

Well we can at least say that the teachers would be in the schools! I am amazed that this deputy who had this cushy assignment for 9 years, and the ONE time he is needed, to do what he is there to do, he chickens out, and let's more and more people die! Hey, but he is alive to tell the story!

In an interview taped three years ago the school resource officer said he had been a cop for 30 years and a SRO for 25 of those years.

It looked like he sat too close to the donut box during most of those years.

I wonder if the Broward Sheriff's Office has a penalty for Dereliction of Duty?

[Bob Denman]

As I understand it: he's no longer on the Force.
I'm just not sure if he was fired; or "allowed" to retire...

[Orange Spyder Man]

I still think we should start by holding criminals/murders/rapists accountable.. they are assigned a lawyer & show up in court dressed in a suit, clean shaven .. made to look like a top notch law abiding citizen... if they are unfortunate to get charged for the crime they did.. our penal system puts the in jail for 20+ years before any real consequences are carried out.........heck, if they guilty of murder... hang them within a month... why should tax payers be burdened with supporting these rejects of humanity for 20 years ???? ... do you really think these kind of people will change/rehabilitate ???
Until the U.S. changes the punishment for heinous crimes.. NOTHING WILL CHANGE.. one does not need a gun to commit murder.. they can resort to knives, vehicles, bombs or crashing air planes... wake up folks... GUNS DO NOT KILL PEOPLE.. they don't go out shooting anyone... PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE..

[RinconRyder]

Here's an idea to Improve School Safety:
Harden them.
Give them entrances that can't be shot open... mesh glass that can't easily be busted, and stepped through...
Replace the cheap inner doors, with something that'll keep bullets from making their way into the classrooms.
Give each instructor the ability to lock their doors from a handy remote location.
Keep the damn doors shut! Have absolute control over who gets access to the buildings...
(How many of you have seen doors blocked-open??? )

Idiot Trump espoused this same "idea" this morning. Only problem? Where is the money going to come from? You are talking about retrofitting thousands and thousands of buildings across the country. This is dumber than trying to isolate a country with a wall.

[Bob Denman]

Idiot Trump espoused this same "idea" this morning. Only problem? Where is the money going to come from? You are talking about retrofitting thousands and thousands of buildings across the country. This is dumber than trying to isolate a country with a wall.

Rather than saying what won't work: tell us about what you would suggest...
I suggested hardening the targets: because this tactic does work... at a price.
Are taxpayers willing to pay it?

And the entire "idiot Trump" thing is uncalled for...

[kep-up]

You DID attempt to change the subject - from gun issues to abortion. They are not the same thing and do not have the same complicating factors. But just let me say this:

Until each and every Right To Lifer volunteers to adopt and raise, at their own expense, those unwanted fetuses (they are not "babies" until they are born) do not foist their expenses upon people like me. I raised my children at my own expense and do not want to pay to raise multiple generations of "welfare babies". If that sounds harsh then so be it but until you have a better solution don't harangue me about abortion.

And, you are absolutely WRONG about the "people problem". Since it is apparently impossible to tell who might commit a mass murder with a gun the only other reasonable response is to remove the weapon doing the damage.

My point, in case I wasn't clear and I probably wasn't, was that a tremendous amount of media discussion is happening about 17 deaths but never any media discussion regarding the thousands of unborn killed every day.

If a fetus isn't a baby until it is born, (if said "fetus could fill it's lungs with oxygen, it is a human being) why is it that an individual who kills a pregnant woman in an automobile crash can be charged with 2 counts of homicide?

You are partly correct in that it is nearly (my word) impossible to predict who will commit mass murder, but my point is not about individuals, but about our society as a whole. As a society, we need to "get our head right". We absolutely need to stop worshipping violence, and until we do, any bandaid we stick on the problem isn't going to accomplish anything.

I said I was done, but for some reason Rincon Ryder, you seem to be able to jerk my chain. BUT, now I am done!

[Mad Mac]

Agree Bob, insults lead to "Hatred", hatred leads to Violence, and we are in the same vicious cycle! I think we all agree that there needs to be some level of change! I have to say, I don't know what that SHOULD be, but it will require compromise in some fashion. I don't believe that any guns should be banned. I think that it should be a little more difficult to get them, and that all of the law abiding gun owners on this site would have no problem owning all of the guns they want. I think our law enforcement agencies need to do a better job of managing "questionable" cases. This guy had 39 instances of interactions with police, and or social services as he was apparently a pretty sick dude. The next time the police come to my door will be the first! If as I read, this guys family and neighbors had warmed the police about this guy and his guns, and they did nothing, shame on them!

So so how do you effect change in such a heated emotional issue? Through peaceful conversation, and compromise! Yes Mac, I am a Hippie at heart, I hug a tree every chance I get as I love being out in nature. If that is wrong, and you hate me for it, that is really very fine with me!

So let's continue the peaceful conversation and benefit from the great ideas that come from it!

I don't "hate" you, I enjoy nature myself and I don't want to come across as a person that believes we as a people, should use and abuse our resources. Use responsively and save some for others. What I meant, is that we have turned into a nation of "whiners" and we put it on somebody else to fix it for us, nobody is responsible for "policing" themselves anymore and it is taught to our kids by counsellors and teachers, not us parents. Look at the shooter, his adopted parents, whom had to know that he was a little "mental" and was allowed a firearm in their home? Really?? I don't care if he was 19, and I thought we had the only key?? If it was secured in a gun safe, it has 2 keys. And if it had a tumbler lock, Sorry kid, not in my house! So I hold those "fill- in- parents" to blame. Common sense people! That is the point I was trying to make and I apologize if I stepped on any toes. Mac

[Mad Mac]

I also like hugging trees!

When I'm climbing them to get into my hunting blind!

What'd I say??

OKAY BOB, I stand corrected. I do "hug trees" myself because I'm scared!! Mac

[Bob Denman]

Scared is good: it really gets the blood pumping!

[RinconRyder]

This problem will absolutely not be solved easily. I have no doubt that it will require a multifaceted approach, that will piss off a whole lot of folks.

Some comments:

Here's the start of my list of issues:
1. Get rid of HIPPA regulations. Everybody's medical records seem to be sacrosanct. Nobody can tell anybody anything about you: even if you're suicidal, homicidal, or worse...

Hippa regs do need to change. Hell, I can't even ask about my own wife or kids unless documented with the agency. Really dumb! However, HIPPA was developed to protect against unreasonable use of health conditions by insurance companies, employers etc., and those protections need to be preserved. I would support a revised HIPPA allowing for the reasonable dissemination of health history under specific conditions (law enforcement being one of them).

2. Video games need to be brought under strict control. The youth of today have been inoculated against the true consequences of violence. They can shoot, tab, stomp, and blow up countless other folks every day on these things. Life has no value to them anymore.

I do not necessarily agree with you on this point although I appreciate your reasoning. I know plenty of "kids" and adults who play shoot 'em up games a lot and none of them have yet committed a crime with a real gun. Sane people can tell the difference between real and imaginary situations. Those of us who grew up in the 50's watched endless cowboy movies and played war games but we didn't have "gun" problems like today. If video games are a cause of violent behavior it is probably because they tend to isolate the person from normal society. Virtually every one of the mass murderers to date have been found to be depressed, sociopaths, bully victims and unable to create or maintain normal human to human relationships. Those are the characteristics of a mass murderer and those are the people we need to identify and treat. I might also add that accusing the video gaming industry of complacency in this matter would require some sort of censorship to evaluate and approve new games and we already know how American responds to censorship of any kind.


3. How about making two-parent households a bit more popular again? It takes two of them to juggle an adolescent into a semblance of maturity: one can't do it alone.

No question one parent families have contributed to all sorts of social issues but how does one go about fixing that? As with Prohibition we learned we cannot legislate morality. And I would also argue that a one parent family is not a significant clue to violent behavior. If I remember correctly the shooters at Colombine High School both had normal two parent families.


4. Let's force the background checks to do their job. If somebody "falls through the cracks": let the idiot that dropped them pay for the horrors that are committed.

Let's first eliminate "straw purchasers" so that the background checks become meaningful. And register all firearms as we do motor vehicles so we have an idea who owns what and have some sort of trail to follow when things get nasty.

5. There are well over 20,000 firearms laws on the books right now. How about actually enforcing them??

You must be counting both federal and local laws but whatever the number they clearly do not regulate the industry or availability and use of firearms adequately. A first suggestion would be to establish a federal law which can be applied across all states and close the existing loopholes that currently exist from state to state.

6. Let's make incarceration not so much fun anymore?

Have you been in jail or prison lately? I haven't but I don't think it is as cushy as one believes. Maricopa County (AZ) old sheriff, Joe Arpaio, tried making his Tent City as uncomfortable as possible and told inmates if they didn't like it then don't come back. The voters tossed him out (for other reasons) and the new sheriff closed Tent City shortly thereafter.

Who else adds something to add to the list?

If you read though my posts in this thread you will find a number of suggestions as well as some workable suggestions by other posters as well but one that comes to mind that hasn't been mentioned (to my knowledge) is to rid our Congress of donations and lobbying. We currently have the best Congress money can buy and that is a huge reason they are not doing what is right for the American people. We need to make them financially independent and out of the hands of the NRA and other notorious organizations.

I'd love to hear anything that might work!

I will address a few ideas that will NOT work:

1. Arm teachers. Teachers are not first responders and most would not be able to take appropriate action against a shooter who, in most cases, is armed with much more fire power than a handgun. This would also put a teacher in the first line of fire in a shooter environment and virtually guarantee they would get shot right off the bat. Shooters are not stupid and would go after armed civilians first. This might have been reasonable thinking in the 50's where many teachers were WWII vets but that is not the case today.
2. Harden school sites. Wishful thinking and wildly unreasonable. In this day of shrinking school resources what district would have the money for hardening a school to prevent intrusion?
3. Outlaw bump stocks. AFAIK the only shooter with a bump stock was the Las Vegas perp. But the problem isn't limited just to bump stock equipped guns. It is all fast firing guns. Those need to be restricted to LEO's and the military. There is no point or purpose in a civilian owning a semi-automatic weapon.

A few positive suggestions:
4. Raise gun buying or ownership age. This should have already been done and is one of the best reasons for a federal gun law which covers all states. An age law would not solve the problem but it might help and if it saves just one life it is worth it. Operation of any firearm underage only with oversight by licensed adult. Licensed adult responsible for all use of registered firearm. Possession of unregistered firearm a felony with mandatory prison time.
5. Make "straw purchasers" illegal and financially responsible for any illegal use of the weapons they buy for others.
6. Mandatory sentences added to existing judgements for use of a gun in any crime.
7. Mandatory licensing (including training) for gun ownership - in the same manner as vehicle licenses.
8. Outlaw re-sales of confiscated weapons by LEO's. Mandatory destruction if not needed as evidence.
9. Sales of all firearms through registered and licensed dealers only. No person to person sales without the identical background approvals that dealers are required to do. Licensed dealers to perform background checks.
10. Mandatory reporting of persons unsuitable for firearm ownership by medical professionals. Mandatory examination by medical professionals for approval of firearm license.

I could probably think of more but its lunch time. My whole point is we need to restrict the availability and ownership of firearms of all kinds to those people who are reasonably able to make good decisions with them and we need to take military style weapons out of the civilian population.

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

perhaps if guns were treated like our wangs we might have less problems, never pull it out in public and don't let
it go off when in a crowd.

[Mad Mac]

perhaps if guns were treated like our wangs we might have less problems, never pull it out in public and don't let
it go off when in a crowd.

TOO!!

[Nokesy]

I am a retired leo from one of the biggest cities in Canada, 10 million in city and surrounding area. 35 years in some of our most troubled areas. In all that time I have drawn a firearm twice, never fired one other that at the range. Was on the gun team of our force. Hunted for years, own a couple of guns.

I am allowed to purchase a gun for hunting and if I want I can go het a pistol licences as well. Hunting guns are made for one thing hunting, we do not allow guns meant for anything else. You do have to go through a course and go through several checks. no problem for most people. Small arms purchase requires more checks and restrictions on how they are carried and used.

I have never felt unsafe walking through the city and anywhere else in this country. I do not or did not carry a weapon when off duty. If fact numerous times I would run into someone that I dealt with on the job and stop and talk to them as any other person might.

Have we had issues, yes we average 60 murders a year with about 15% due to guns, Have we had lockdowns yes, if fact we had the first mass shooting in a school in North America, over 50 years ago. Most people do not even know that as we do not publish names of the attackers. Most shooters who participate in mass shootings are depressed people who feel useless and want their name in lights. Have we had one since, no

We had a gun registration where whenever we went to a call we were alerted of people on the street that have guns. I could not believe the amount of people that have weapons.

Yes we restrict the type of weapons, yes we do background checks BUT we do not restrict a person from buying a gun if they pass the requirements.

Maybe we are doing something right?

[Bob Denman]

While I applaud the successes that your Country and Citizens have enjoyed in this regard: I'm not sure that it would easily translate to our side of the Border.
We fought for, and won our Freedom. It is the principle that we hold most dear.
I'm not exactly sure how Canada and Great Britain separated; but I believe that it was more an "agreeable dissolution" of the previous situation...
I do know that there were no shots fired.
which is a GOOD thing!
I'm probably wrong to assume that you don't value your Freedom as we do... please correct me if I'm wrong.
(I've never researched it, or had discussions about it with anyone: please enlighten me.)

I almost forgot: Welcome to our latest incidence of "poo-tossing"!

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

While I applaud the successes that your Country and Citizens have enjoyed in this regard: I'm not sure that it would easily translate to our side of the Border.
We fought for, and won our Freedom. It is the principle that we hold most dear.
I'm not exactly sure how Canada and Great Britain separated; but I believe that it was more an "agreeable dissolution" of the previous situation...
I do know that there were no shots fired.
which is a GOOD thing!
I'm probably wrong to assume that you don't value your Freedom as we do... please correct me if I'm wrong.
(I've never researched it, or had discussions about it with anyone: please enlighten me.)

I almost forgot: Welcome to our latest incidence of "poo-tossing"!

I rather think every westernized country values it's freedom but each country and it's people do so in a different way.

[Bob Denman]

While : I think that we may just "take it to the next level"...


But you've brought up a good point, and I apologize if I insulted anyone: it was never my intent to do so....

[Machinegunner]

If some are worried about where to get the money to protect our schools...........Why not just stop giving so much money to our enemies around the world. who hate us. Billion and billions of dollars we could use at home. And just maybe we wouldn't have to borrow from China.

[Mad Mac]

If some are worried about where to get the money to protect our schools...........Why not just stop giving so much money to our enemies around the world. who hate us. Billion and billions of dollars we could use at home. And just maybe we wouldn't have to borrow from China.

You hit it right on the head man!! Mac

[RinconRyder]

My point, in case I wasn't clear and I probably wasn't, was that a tremendous amount of media discussion is happening about 17 deaths but never any media discussion regarding the thousands of unborn killed every day.

If a fetus isn't a baby until it is born, (if said "fetus could fill it's lungs with oxygen, it is a human being) why is it that an individual who kills a pregnant woman in an automobile crash can be charged with 2 counts of homicide?

You are partly correct in that it is nearly (my word) impossible to predict who will commit mass murder, but my point is not about individuals, but about our society as a whole. As a society, we need to "get our head right". We absolutely need to stop worshipping violence, and until we do, any bandaid we stick on the problem isn't going to accomplish anything.

I said I was done, but for some reason Rincon Ryder, you seem to be able to jerk my chain. BUT, now I am done!

My intent wasn't to "jerk your chain" or anyone else's. It was simply to present my own ideas (or those others had suggested that I agreed with) to help with this very serious problem with guns we as a nation have.

There have been plenty of discussions about abortion and I understand people feel very passionate about it but abortion isn't the issue of this thread.

Back to guns.....you've stated we "need to get our head right" about the problem but what specific solutions do you suggest? Over 60% of Americans believe more gun control is needed yet we seem to be held hostage by a bought Congress and the NRA (who accounts for about 7% of all gun owners). This is a travesty! We, as a nation, should be able to address these very serious issues without being outbid by special interests (which is a topic for yet another thread).

As I stated in a different post, I agree with you in that our media (electronic and arts) both are guilty of replacing historic entertainment with dark and evil programs which promote the gun as the major problem resolver. But I don't even see that as a big cause because we have been a violent country since our beginning and we didn't have these mass murders until relatively recently. Instead the problem seems to me to be that some individuals become so tin hat crazy and isolated that they see these drastic events as a way of either resolving their issues or creating some sort of perverse popularity and that, coupled with the easy access to military style weapons make their dreams come true. Since we cannot control people who have not yet committed a crime our only remaining solution is to take away these weapons or make them much more difficult to obtain. That, in a nutshell, is what we are up against.

[RinconRyder]

I am a retired leo from one of the biggest cities in Canada, 10 million in city and surrounding area. 35 years in some of our most troubled areas. In all that time I have drawn a firearm twice, never fired one other that at the range. Was on the gun team of our force. Hunted for years, own a couple of guns.

I am allowed to purchase a gun for hunting and if I want I can go het a pistol licences as well. Hunting guns are made for one thing hunting, we do not allow guns meant for anything else. You do have to go through a course and go through several checks. no problem for most people. Small arms purchase requires more checks and restrictions on how they are carried and used.

I have never felt unsafe walking through the city and anywhere else in this country. I do not or did not carry a weapon when off duty. If fact numerous times I would run into someone that I dealt with on the job and stop and talk to them as any other person might.

Have we had issues, yes we average 60 murders a year with about 15% due to guns, Have we had lockdowns yes, if fact we had the first mass shooting in a school in North America, over 50 years ago. Most people do not even know that as we do not publish names of the attackers. Most shooters who participate in mass shootings are depressed people who feel useless and want their name in lights. Have we had one since, no

We had a gun registration where whenever we went to a call we were alerted of people on the street that have guns. I could not believe the amount of people that have weapons.

Yes we restrict the type of weapons, yes we do background checks BUT we do not restrict a person from buying a gun if they pass the requirements.

Maybe we are doing something right?

I agree that Canada is taking a preferred route to gun control but there are other historical reasons why the two nations are different:

The USA from its inception has always been a much more violent nation with a much larger population and diversity. We tend to resolve our major problems through violence (Civil War, Prohibition, Civil Rights etc.). We have a much larger military and tend to get involved in more military conflicts than does Canada (other perhaps than WWI). That has given Americans the historical perspective that problems can be resolved through violence (which usually means lots of weapons involved). There are other nations around the world with even worse records but they don't have the economic strength, the size or the technology of the USA. We seem to be the world's leader in violent responses to problems.

The USA has severe economic issues compared with Canada. We have a huge number of our population on various types of welfare and have created a sub-culture of poverty, illiteracy, disrespect for authority and dependency thanks to the Great Society and other social programs.

The USA went through a very trying period attempting to legislate morality with Prohibition. It didn't work but left us with a major underground organized crime business which still flourishes today. Gangsters became national figures and we still tag them with colorful nicknames as if they were honored war heroes. Prohibition and the accompanying Great Depression both contributed to the drug and criminal problems we have today and our very large number of immigrants, legal and otherwise, coming from crime ridden parts of the world have not helped.

The USA has made the condition much worse by legalizing the purchase of politicians through outright contributions and lobbying thereby isolating our Congress from the will of the people. And, quite frankly, we have elected a number of outright idiots to Congress and the Presidency who don't give a whit about fixing these issues.

And what I am about to say next will inflame a lot of people but we are not a very well educated people in the USA. Our education standards have fallen drastically since I was a child and continue to fall each and every year. A very large percentage of our population are morons when it comes to any sense of historical perspective. Our traditions, aside from the many holiday sales, have largely been forgotten and with them our sense of morality. We tend to live in very large cities where personal contact is minimal and one can get lost easily from his or her fellow humans. We used to be a small town nation where people knew each other and problems would be known and resolved before it came to the type of crimes we see today.

I think most Americans see Canada as the nation we used to be and would like to be again. Unfortunately, I don't see us getting there in my lifetime and perhaps never again. Americans no longer live in the "greatest" nation in the world (if we truly ever did) and that is the greatest shame of all.

Perhaps the Prime Minister of Canada would consider building a wall along your southern border. You will likely need it one day.

[Machinegunner]

It's about the 2nd Amendment to our Constitution. Why should millions of law abiding citizens give up their constitutional rights to try and prevent some deranged person from doing harm? The thought of disarming the people might sound good, but only the law abiding will turn in their guns. Because they are law abiding. Criminal by their very nature do not follow the laws. It's already against the law to bring a gun of any kind into a school and murder is also. What law would have prevented any of the past shootings?

[SPECTACUALR SPIDERMAN]

It's about the 2nd Amendment to our Constitution. Why should millions of law abiding citizens give up their constitutional rights to try and prevent some deranged person from doing harm? The thought of disarming the people might sound good, but only the law abiding will turn in their guns. Because they are law abiding. Criminal by their very nature do not follow the laws. It's already against the law to bring a gun of any kind into a school and murder is also. What law would have prevented any of the past shootings?

Why should i give up my right to own a slave, why should i give up my right to snort cocaine, why should we treat
women as equals when it only says "all MEN are created equal"? Because such is life, TOO BAD!! Do what's right not
just what is good for you.
Maybe you should ask why i paid school taxes yet i have no children or why i pay unemployment insurance for my
employees yet i have never fired anyone or why i even have to pay it for myself. i can go on but i think most
understand my point but not everyone likes it.

[Pirate looks at --]

I don't "hate" you, I enjoy nature myself and I don't want to come across as a person that believes we as a people, should use and abuse our resources. Use responsively and save some for others. What I meant, is that we have turned into a nation of "whiners" and we put it on somebody else to fix it for us, nobody is responsible for "policing" themselves anymore and it is taught to our kids by counsellors and teachers, not us parents. Look at the shooter, his adopted parents, whom had to know that he was a little "mental" and was allowed a firearm in their home? Really?? I don't care if he was 19, and I thought we had the only key?? If it was secured in a gun safe, it has 2 keys. And if it had a tumbler lock, Sorry kid, not in my house! So I hold those "fill- in- parents" to blame. Common sense people! That is the point I was trying to make and I apologize if I stepped on any toes. Mac

Obviously you are a hard left thinker and that is why this country is as f%#@*^ as it is, probably because you raised your kids under the "time out" rule and are one of those "touchy, feely, rock lick'n, lizard kiss'n, tree hug'n, type of people I love to hate. Instead of giving your kids a good whack on the butt and sending them to their room and making them think about what they did wrong. The problem with today's society, is "PARENTS"!

Apology accepted Mac, so in the future, if you don't mean the word hate, don't use it!