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Mike, I don't know where you're getting your information, but it's just not so. That's the propaganda that our capitalistic health care system has been feeding us for decades.
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 Originally Posted by Rob Rodriguez
Completely agree we need a rational solution. I don't think we will have one any time soon. Politicians are too busy fighting among each other and "big business" completely controls how "healthcare" works in this country. Neither gives a damn about the people that actually use healthcare and neither lives in the "real world"
Since it seems a lot of people in the USA are against a government controlled healthcare system like most other countries have I think we need to go the route of people obtaining their own insurance rather than employers providing insurance.
In my opinion employer sponsored healthcare is a major driving force in why/how the costs are out of control.
Why?
- Because most people have no idea what they are paying for health care (comes out of their check automatically) or what the true overall cost is.
- Employers have a large enough pool of money (or are able to achieve the $ required) to meet these over inflated costs year after year.
If everyone had to purchase their own health insurance on their own two thing would happen.
- People would be in shock at what health insurance really costs
- Very few would purchase health insurance because no one would be able to afford it
Insurance companies, hospitals, etc, etc would be forced to have more reasonable costs because they wouldn't be able to sell their product at current pricing.
The old,"how much does it cost?, how much do you have?" wouldn't/couldn't be the pricing model as it currently is.
Would this solve the entire issue. Absolutely not, but its a step in the right direction.
You nailed it.
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Originally Posted by johnsimion
Having been in private practice ... if your lawyer is charging $340 an hour for work actually done by his/her legal secretary, that is absolutely fraud and you have a legitimate complaint to the local Bar association. You are entitled to an itemized bill showing what the lawyer did to earn the $340 an hour. Not only that, but they would have to produce time slips showing what they did, when they did it, and how long it took them. I'd bet that if you asked for such an accounting, the first response you'd get is an offer to simply cut the bill in half. Thing is, most people are too shy to ask for such an accounting ... and there are some lawyers who know this and depend on it. When I was licensed back in 1982, we had an honorable profession. Now it's 90% ambulance chasers. This kind of thing drove me crazy in short order which is why I spent most of my career in the Army and Air Force, both in uniform as a JAG and as a civilian attorney.
You have my utmost respect and admiration. Thank you for your service in both the military and civilian life. I'm sure with an attitude like yours, you didn't retire filthy rich, as most doctors and lawyers expect to do.
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Originally Posted by Bob Denman
Their system is less susceptible to fraud and self-dealing, than ours.
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Originally Posted by akspyderman
When I worked in a CPA office as a "staff accountant" back in the 90's, we had to keep track of our time spent on various clients down to 1/10th of an hour. That was so they could bill the client for time spent. I am guessing the time was credited to the "partners" and not the grunts doing the work behind the scenes. 
I worked for Touche, Ross & Co back in the 90s as a senior auditor. I did see some of the billing to clients and it was broken down by associate, manager and partner time.
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FREE h c
Last edited by BLUEKNIGHT911; 12-28-2017 at 10:53 PM.
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Mike, Mike, Mike. Love you bro'  But what does this have to do with the problem of paying for health care in the US?
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Health Care
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Okay, bud. I respect and appreciate you too much to pursue this further.
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Originally Posted by PrairieSpyder
You also need to add in the costs you pay for the supplementary insurance and the cost to the government for Medicare, etc. over and above whatever you paid over your working years for Medicare.
About the only cost not included in the insurance premiums and my out of pocket cost of $12,000+ per year above is the Government's current contribution to the Medicare program that helps pay for my medical care. Retirees are covered by Part A at no out of pocket cost. I haven't seen nor looked for info on how much the Part B premium retirees pay does or does not cover actual medical costs of the retiree. Part B is an insurance pool just like BCBS, Aetna, and all the others. The presumption of the total BCBS premium, me + Uncle, is that it pays for all of my medical expenses as part of the total insurance pool. That means, of course, that many people in the pool pay in a lot more than they cost in benefits.
If the billed charges for medical care and prescriptions are in fact bloated fictitious numbers and the real cost is closer to what I and my insurance plans pay the providers, then how badly are those without insurance, or with only a weak insurance plan, being gouged? Everybody, insured or not, should be charged about the same rate for a given procedure or prescription. I can see an insurance company getting somewhat of a break due to volume and buying power, but when the provider accepts 5% to 20% of the billed amount as payment in full, the pricing scheme is seriously broken.
Other evidence of the broken pricing scheme is that in spite of providers screaming about inadequate payments non-profit hospitals and for profit medical groups continue to build marble palaces. Some of the most gorgeous buildings in town are hospitals.
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Originally Posted by johnsimion
Then there's the fact that we don't allow the same drugs that are made overseas to be sold here, limiting supply. So if you have increased demand and limited supply, what do you get? High prices.
You ever looked closely at the label on your prescription bottles, the ones that are handed to you just as they come from the pharmaceutical companies? You might be surprised at just how many of them do come from overseas, especially India.
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Originally Posted by Bob Denman
If anybody thinks that the Canadian Healthcare system is better than ours: I'm pretty sure that they'd be happy for us to join them up there! 
Keep in mind the two parts of medical care, the technology and the delivery. The US is undoubtedly the leader, but not necessarily by much, when it comes to technology and expertise in treatment of illness and injury. However, we are sadly far from the top of the list when it comes to delivery. Most every developed country in the world does a better job of providing care to its people than we do. So, which is worthy of more praise, great medical technology that 20% + of the population can't access, or mediocre care that everyone has access to? Guess which one has the lower infant mortality rate. In this list, https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2091rank.html, out of 225 countries 54 have a lower infant mortality than the US.
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Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder
So, which is worthy of more praise, great medical technology that 20% + of the population can't access, or mediocre care that everyone has access to? Guess which one has the lower infant mortality rate. In this list, https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2091rank.html, out of 225 countries 54 have a lower infant mortality than the US.
Firstly, before I'm accused of hating kids, all children should have access to healthcare. Would you explain what I have bolded? Are you making an all encompassing statement that there are children in all states that don't have access to healthcare? Lately I've seen statements on various threads where comments seem to be all encompassing, all fit under the same umbrella type statements. In any case, in NYS children have access to healthcare at no cost or little cost based on family earnings. I'll admit that I don't know how this plays into other states, and was wondering if that's what you meant by access?
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I can't really complain too much about prescription costs.
My insulin pump and blood glucose monitoring system supplies run me about $116 per quarter; but they'd cost over 1400 bucks if I was buying them.
And the Missus takes over $5000 worth of immunosuppressants each Month, and they cost us about $170.
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Originally Posted by Bob Denman
I can't really complain too much about prescription costs.
My insulin pump and blood glucose monitoring system supplies run me about $116 per quarter; but they'd cost over 1400 bucks if I was buying them.
And the Missus takes over $5000 worth of immunosuppressants each Month, and they cost us about $170.
Bob,
I don't mean to take this off track, but to this day I still don't know quite how my daughter could pay for any of he liver transplant in Jan. 2016, and follow up drugs for the rest of her life; she had some minimal paying job at the time. I think NYS had something to do with that, the paying for hospitalization and drugs. My other daughter that gave up part of her liver is well insured.
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You're right Mike, Canadian healthcare is not free. But since you asked for the math. Here it is.
Note all currency values are in US dollars. Data from the OECD for 2016.
US Data
Total spent on healthcare per person per year is $9,892
Percentage of gross domestic product is 17.5%
Amount spent by government at all levels is $4,860 per person. The rest is out of pocket, health insurance premiums or copay, drugs, etc.
Canadian Data
Total spent on healthcare per person per year is $4,753
Percentage of gross domestic product is 11.5%
Amounts spent by government at all levels is $3,341 per person. The rest is out of pocket.
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Thank you UTAHPETE for your understanding of our system.I will not answer Mike back as he will never understand, and I did not lie about our costs or system nor did I run down Mr Trump, all I said was he is working on the health care system and is going to fix it.
Have a good day
Roger
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Originally Posted by billybovine
You're right Mike, Canadian healthcare is not free. But since you asked for the math. Here it is.
Note all currency values are in US dollars. Data from the OECD for 2016.
US Data
Total spent on healthcare per person per year is $9,892
Percentage of gross domestic product is 17.5%
Amount spent by government at all levels is $4,860 per person. The rest is out of pocket, health insurance premiums or copay, drugs, etc.
Canadian Data
Total spent on healthcare per person per year is $4,753
Percentage of gross domestic product is 11.5%
Amounts spent by government at all levels is $3,341 per person. The rest is out of pocket.
Whether as a percentage of GDP or as a per capita cost, our health care system is by far the world's most expensive. That has been so for over 20 years now, and just getting worse all the time. It will destroy our economy if we don't do something about it.
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Originally Posted by UtahPete
Don't you think that might pose a problem for workers in minimum-wage jobs to be able to afford that? THAT, I think, is the question this thread is all about.
Minimum wage jobs should never be a goal for someone's life... Get an education, and work hard: you'll be able to earn MUCH more money.
We bought the best policy that we could: we both needed the best available coverage possible.
If you plan to work in jobs that won't provide for your needs: prioritize!
Last edited by Bob Denman; 12-29-2017 at 06:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by Bob Denman
Minimum wage jobs should never be a goal for someone's life... Get an education, and work hard: you'll be able to earn MUCH more money.
That's the difference between a capitalistic approach and a socialistic one. The assumption that health care is a privilege for those who are 'winners'; the losers have only themselves to blame?
I worked hard (since I was 15), served in the military, got an education (MBA), did everything 'right'. But, I didn't achieve much in the way of economic 'success' (not complaining - it's just the way it is). Life just isn't that simple, Bob. If not for the VA I would have been without health insurance or any way to afford health care (and I'm relatively healthy). The capitalist approach to healthcare is callous and cold-hearted and ultimately will be a national disgrace, I think.
Would Jesus be a capitalist, do you think? Or a socialist?
Last edited by UtahPete; 12-29-2017 at 06:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by IdahoMtnSpyder
So, which is worthy of more praise, great medical technology that 20% + of the population can't access, or mediocre care that everyone has access to? Guess which one has the lower infant mortality rate. In this list, https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2091rank.html, out of 225 countries 54 have a lower infant mortality than the US.
Originally Posted by wyliec
Firstly, before I'm accused of hating kids, all children should have access to healthcare. Would you explain what I have bolded? Are you making an all encompassing statement that there are children in all states that don't have access to healthcare? Lately I've seen statements on various threads where comments seem to be all encompassing, all fit under the same umbrella type statements. In any case, in NYS children have access to healthcare at no cost or little cost based on family earnings. I'll admit that I don't know how this plays into other states, and was wondering if that's what you meant by access?
The reference to children's mortality rate is an example of the shortcoming in the healthcare delivery system. The 20% number is a guesstimate of how many people in this country do not have insurance or other ready access to medical care. The lack of care for mothers is a major contributor to the children's mortality rate. It would be interesting to see how children's mortality rate correlates with the parent's access to medical care. If parents have ready access to affordable medical care I dare say their children get better medical care simply due to the fact the parents are accustomed to seeking care when needed. Poor mothers who can't afford to go see the doctor for their own needs are going to be much less likely to take their children to the doctor even if the child is covered by insurance.
Aren't nearly all state sponsored children's insurance programs all just part of CHIP, the current subject of Congressional battling? I believe children's coverage is pretty much universal under CHIP.
The point that I really want to make is that in spite of the fact that we have top notch medical technology available in this country, the delivery system is lacking as evidenced by our dismal showing in children's mortality rate. That is just one of many possible examples.
I just did a Google search. About 1/3 of Americans have either no, or inadequate, medical insurance.
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only to those Canadians who " Don't Pay Any Taxes ".... Canadians are among the Highest taxed people on the planet. Annnnnnnnnd that's how the health care is FREE ..... Do the math ......... Mike 
We DO pay $25,000 per year for our health insurance... 
